Back on the topic of digital piano amplification in stereo

[CEB]

I used to worry about stuff like this. Life is now easier that all this is above my paygrade. I can provide mono or stereo sends out of my rack.  It’s production’s job to decide how they want to do their job.  It sounds good in my in ears.  

[Reezekeys]

2 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

piano on those pre 1958 Blue Note jazz records sure sounds good to me...and they're mono. The mono version of Kind of Blues sounds great, too.

 

Lots of folks prefer the early mono Beatles pressings too, but I think we're talking apples & oranges here. If I got to a gig and there was a nice Steinway, and Rudy Van Gelder was running sound, and he put one of his Neumanns on it, I don't think I'd mind the piano being mono. Problem is that I'm playing piano samples, and they're stereo; I think they should be reproduced the same way. I probably wouldn't mind a well-recorded mono piano sample set reproduced in mono, though I'm sure I'd miss the warm fuzzies of my piano sound being around me, like I have now!

[MPN21]

On 9/13/2022 at 9:21 PM, AnotherScott said:

PIcking up from something just posted in another thread, this looks like it could be very relevant to people following this one...

 

The bass bottom is under 16 lbs. The two stereo satellites don't necessarily have to be put up on tripods, depending on the spread and coverage you're looking for. Note that the stereo inputs are XLR, though.

 

More info at https://www.markbass.it/product/ergo-system-1s-121/

It was indeed very interesting when I found out that Markbass makes these 2.1 systems.   Years ago, I briefly owned a Markbass CMD 102P bass combo amp(P for a piezo in a 2x10 combo cabinet).  Organ sounds, strings, and etc from my key sounded so pristine, vibrant, and powerful.   We did an A/B test with other 12 inch active speakers.  No comparison.   All the people in the local GC couldn't believe it.   If any of these 2.1 systems sound like the CMD 102P, I would consider getting one, but I would hate to carry a mixer a with it.  As you mentioned in other post, one might as well deal with two speakers on poles rather than fumble with particularly complex 2.1 systems like the HK Audio Nano.   I haven't used my Nano 608i for gigs yet.  It was such a great deal that I didn't mind spending $100 or so for the S pole.  I just need to get better with the setup before I start taking it to gigs.  Probably the quickest 2.1 setup gotta be the EXM400.  I sold it a gig musician friend who loves it.   I needed a little more.    In my search for an easy stereo setup, I seriously considered getting a KP-610s.  However, I think it was your posts and some others that dissuaded me.    

 

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, MPN21 said:

It was indeed very interesting when I found out that Markbass makes these 2.1 systems.   Years ago, I briefly owned a Markbass CMD 102P bass combo amp(P for a piezo in a 2x10 combo cabinet).  Organ sounds, strings, and etc from my key sounded so pristine, vibrant, and powerful.   We did an A/B test with other 12 inch active speakers.  No comparison.   All the people in the local GC couldn't believe it.   If any of these 2.1 systems sound like the CMD 102P, I would consider getting one

I guess one question for me, in that context, is how it would sound for piano, one sound you didn't mention, and the acid test for many systems.

 

5 hours ago, MPN21 said:

but I would hate to carry a mixer a with it. 

There are some extremely light and small minimal mixers these days. One could almost leave one velcro'd to the box to make the system more like an "amp", the trick being how to move it safely, where the mixer would not get damaged.

 

I also wonder if the system's 1/4" input (which they promote as a place to plug in your bass) might be a TRS into which you could also conceivably run a stereo keyboard. That could possibly obviate the need for a mixer, if you have just one board, or you have a pair where you can plug the out of one into the in of the other and have them merged over a single stereo out. (I'm only guessing that the XLR ins want a hot signal, like typical powered PA cabs, meaning you almost certainly need something like a mixer to boost your signal, but since that 1/4" input is promoted for bass guitar, it must have some kind of preamp associated with it, which could address that, that's why I'm thinking you may be able to better get away without a mixer, if that's a stereo in.) There's also an 1/8" aux input, which is presumably stereo, but that may not provide as much input gain as an input designed for a bass guitar would.

 

5 hours ago, MPN21 said:

As you mentioned in other post, one might as well deal with two speakers on poles rather than fumble with particularly complex 2.1 systems like the HK Audio Nano. 

Yes... an advantage I see here is that it looks like you could just sit both satellites right on the cabinet, placed/angled however you'd like. The Nano didn't let you place the satellites on top except in their single stacked configuration, essentially necessitating the need for at least one pole for stereo.

 

5 hours ago, MPN21 said:

In my search for an easy stereo setup, I seriously considered getting a KP-610s.  However, I think it was your posts and some others that dissuaded me.    

I did like the 408 (never tried the 610)... but it was a bit heavy for me. Also a bit pricey compared to what you can get a decent pair of powered PA speakers and small mixer for, but that's true of this system as well. The pricey may be worth it for the convenience, but I'd at least need the really low weight, which this seems to provide.

[ElmerJFudd]

Bumping this topic after a recent thread on happy MotionSound owners.

 

In my mind, it should be possible to create a happy space of stereo reproduction in my vicinity with a portable PA.  They tend to be light weight in design, most are click-together-single-piece carry.  Unlike the MotionSound amps they can be pole mounted at ear height say 10 feet apart slightly behind me so both me and anyone in the vicinity is hearing what I am hearing.  I'd be able to amplify sax, violin, or vocal along with in situations where necessary.  Have EQ, compression and reverb on board.  Place the mixer next to me to balance volumes.  Thoughts on this solution over a MotionSound or pair of powered monitors in the same price range?   Anyone have experience with these setups and do pianos sound good through them?

 

(Side topic - I can't get decent specs on any of the current Fender Passports.  All they say is wattage, special designed speakers.) 

 

MOTIONSOUND KP610S - 2x10”

SPL: No Data Sheet

Freq Response(I assume at -3dB): 60htz-18khtz

Coverage: No Data Sheet

Weight: 43lbs

Price: $1399.00

 

JBL 208P - 2x8”

SPL: 121db

Freq Range(-10dB): 60htz-20khtz

Coverage: 100° x 60°

Weight: 38.2lbs

Price: $815

 

YAMAHA Stagepas 400BT - 2x8”

SPL: 125db

Freq Range(-10dB): 55htz-20khtz

Coverage:  90° x 60°

Weight: 40.3lbs

Price: $899.99

 

FENDER Passport Event Series 2 - 2x8”

SPL: No Data Sheet

Freq Range(-10dB): No Data Sheet

Coverage:  No Data Sheet

Weight: 44lbs - How can this be the same weight as the Venue?

Price: $839.99

 

YAMAHA Stagepas 600BT - 2x10”

SPL: 129db

Freq Range(-10dB): 55htz-20khtz

Coverage:  90° x 60°

Weight: 56.4lbs

Price: $1099.99

 

FENDER Passport Venue Series 2 - 2x10”

SPL: No Data Sheet

Freq Range(-10dB): No Data Sheet

Coverage:  No Data Sheet

Weight: 44lbs - how can this be the same weight as the Event?

Price: $1049.99

[Mighty Motif Max]

3 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Bumping this topic after a recent thread on happy MotionSound owners.

 

In my mind, it should be possible to create a happy space of stereo reproduction in my vicinity with a portable PA.  They tend to be light weight in design, most are click-together-single-piece carry.  Unlike the MotionSound amps they can be pole mounted at ear height say 10 feet apart slightly behind me so both me and anyone in the vicinity is hearing what I am hearing.  I'd be able to amplify sax, violin, or vocal along with in situations where necessary.  Have EQ, compression and reverb on board.  Place the mixer next to me to balance volumes.  Thoughts on this solution over a MotionSound or pair of powered monitors in the same price range?   Anyone have experience with these setups and do pianos sound good through them?

 

(Side topic - I can't get decent specs on any of the current Fender Passports.  All they say is wattage, special designed speakers.) 

 

MOTIONSOUND KP610S - 2x10”

SPL: No Data Sheet

Freq Response(I assume at -3dB): 60htz-18khtz

Coverage: No Data Sheet

Weight: 43lbs

Price: $1399.00

 

JBL 208P - 2x8”

SPL: 121db

Freq Range(-10dB): 60htz-20khtz

Coverage: 100° x 60°

Weight: 38.2lbs

Price: $815

 

YAMAHA Stagepas 400BT - 2x8”

SPL: 125db

Freq Range(-10dB): 55htz-20khtz

Coverage:  90° x 60°

Weight: 40.3lbs

Price: $899.99

 

FENDER Passport Event Series 2 - 2x8”

SPL: No Data Sheet

Freq Range(-10dB): No Data Sheet

Coverage:  No Data Sheet

Weight: 44lbs - How can this be the same weight as the Venue?

Price: $839.99

 

YAMAHA Stagepas 600BT - 2x10”

SPL: 129db

Freq Range(-10dB): 55htz-20khtz

Coverage:  90° x 60°

Weight: 56.4lbs

Price: $1099.99

 

FENDER Passport Venue Series 2 - 2x10”

SPL: No Data Sheet

Freq Range(-10dB): No Data Sheet

Coverage:  No Data Sheet

Weight: 44lbs - how can this be the same weight as the Event?

Price: $1049.99

Those Yamaha's are going to be similar to the DXR speakers sound-wise (or the older MSR line). I've never heard a Fender Passport setup that didn't sound like mud, but that could also be the fault of the performer/sound person. Not sure on those JBL's, and I've never heard a MotionSound.

[timwat]

1 hour ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Those Yamaha's are going to be similar to the DXR speakers sound-wise (or the older MSR line). I've never heard a Fender Passport setup that didn't sound like mud, but that could also be the fault of the performer/sound person. Not sure on those JBL's, and I've never heard a MotionSound.

To my ears, I'll respectfully disagree with just a bit of this, just anecdotally having used (or been forced to use) some of these.  Specifically, to my ears the Yamaha StagePAS system (or, MSR series...I think they are identical but could be wrong here) sounds like a** (so agree with you there). I'm not sure if it's because the cabs aren't rigid enough, or the elements are underpowered, or if they are poorly designed for the sake of portability...but just...no.

 

But IMHO the DXR is an entirely different beast, head and shoulders better (and to my ears marginally better than the QSCs at the same price point), and I still use them to this day. 

 

All that being said, in my experience, the best you're going to get for piano is a well-designed, adequately-braced, quality-built wooden enclosure as a 3-way. And that's not going to be cheap, or necessarily easy to schlep. But it will sound better than any of the plastic 2-way speakers we're talking about.

[jejefunkyman]

I'm using a DXR10 unit in combination with the Korg SV2, and I have to say that I find the piano sound surprisingly very good in mono.

I don't feel like I'm losing anything in the sound in comparison to what I'm used to hear in my headphones or through speakers in stereo.

Actually I find it so good that I'm not anymore considering buying a second one to setup a stereo monitoring system.

So I can only confirm the quality of the DXR.

[AnotherScott]

Updating some earlier thread points, too...

 

The very first post mentioned the EV ZXa1. Along the same lines, I've been pretty impressed with the Alto TS308 (now replaced with TS408). Close to the EV in sound quality, just a hair heavier... but quite a bit cheaper, and also with two inputs that are both switchable mic/line (EV has dedicated one of each), better carrying handle, and better balanced for placement on "short" stands, which might be useful for the scenario at hand.

 

On 12/17/2021 at 11:12 AM, ElmerJFudd said:

Bose L1 Pro 8 or 16

 

180 degrees using 8 or 16 little speakers standing on a sub. Two of these standing back to back is an interesting idea for 360 degree emanation from a central location.

 

My initial response to that comment was in reference to one facing forward and one facing back to generate the 360 degree mono coverage. But actually, if you placed them "back to back" but instead facing left and right, that could possibly create a useful forward-facing stereo?

 

On 12/18/2021 at 7:50 AM, ElmerJFudd said:

I guess you could supplement {a board's not-quite-adequate internal speakers} with one EV. Leave the internal speakers on at a reasonable volume for your highs, and eq the EV to cover your mid to lows. Dragging the amp defeats the purpose of going with internal speakers to an extent. But it might sound rather good.

 

As I mentioned, this wasn't appropriate for my own needs, which I'd actually started another thread about (which I will now update)... but in the greater context of this thread, the idea of a board that has stereo speakers of above average volume that will provide some sense of stereo at least for those nearby, supplemented by a mono speaker to beef up the lower end (as well as more throw overall), may not be a bad way to go, getting you some of what you're after even if not all of it.

[Al Quinn]

When I've had the space to place a pair of powered PA speakers behind me with some separation and not in a place where they're shooting into band members ears, they've sounded great. All in all, a better sonic experience than the KP-610S. I've done this a few times with pair of QSC K8's, QSC K10's, and RCF TT08A's. But, unless playing solo or on a stage where I have my own space this scenario is rare and can be unpredictable on new-to-me venues. And, on a spacious stage where I'm going through FOH it's overkill for me.

 

Since my wife and I bought a condo in Florida to do the snowbird thing I expect to be doing some gigs in NY and some in Florida over the next few years. I need to go up a flight of stairs to get into the condo (and my music space is up another flight of stairs) so I couldn't see getting a second KP-610S (i.e., too heavy for two sets of stairs!). So I decided to bring my TT08A's south; they'll live there from now on for any Florida gigs I might get. Experimenting a little bit last week I'm thinking a setup like this might work (i.e., I'm told they don't put the instruments through the PA for my upcoming gig). My thought is by placing the speakers off-axis to my ears I'll be able to crank them up and also attenuate as needed by moving them forward or back and can make micro adjustments by slight swivels to the left or right. It'll also avoid the issue of shooting into a band members ears (and mine). Will it work? We'll see! I suspect others have tried something like this and can share if it works for them.

 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

22 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

My thought is by placing the speakers off-axis to my ears I'll be able to crank them up and also attenuate as needed by moving them forward or back and can make micro adjustments by slight swivels to the left or right. It'll also avoid the issue of shooting into a band members ears (and mine). Will it work? We'll see! I suspect others have tried something like this and can share if it works for them.

 

I go the opposite direction and put my two speakers below me, on those foldable footstools that raise them about 8" off the ground. Same principle though - your ears are not on the same level, so you can push the speakers' volumes to cover everybody. I'm on the side of the stage, speakers angled inwards a bit to cover both the bandstand and audience - but more so the audience. The other musicians don't get my "full stereo" effect but nobody really does - any "stereo-ness" is just to get that better non-phasy piano sound, not to put different things in the L & R speakers.

 

I had a long running jam session house band gig where they had speaker poles stored at the club, so I experimented with one of my speakers on a pole to my right, raised above me and the other on the footstool in back and to my left. I pushed the level higher on the footstool-mounted speaker to equalize their volumes (for me of course!). I assume that helped get my sound further out into the room (so my mistakes could be heard more clearly!), but wound up going back to both speakers behind & below ear level - I needed the piano sound to be "closer."

 

Another reason I prefer the folding footstools over speaker poles - less to schlep! 🙂 

[ElmerJFudd]

In my situation, on stage with band and an FOH system is the least of my worries.  I have no control what the audience hears whatsoever and I am just happy to be able to hear myself (since I'm usually situated with guitar or bass next to the drummer.  Mono vs Stereo doesn't matter to me in that situation, just being able to hear what is happening, play in time and support the singers.  Done.  

 

The scenario I'm more interested in for a stereo setup is solo piano, duo, trio with acoustic instruments/vocal.  Where the digital piano is really replacing an acoustic piano.  

 

So if I am hearing this right, don't bother with the portable PAs.  They are compromised sonically by design to be compact and light weight.  Wooden enclosures tend to sound better than molded plastic.  I'm probably better off with a pair of good speakers than having both in one box like the 610S because I can place them at just the right distance apart to create a better image for me and the audience in the vicinity.  
 

I’d love to set up a pair of magnepans (ribbon speakers) with a well matched audiophile amp.  But I don’t know if ribbon speakers can handle the schlep and they aren’t inexpensive to replace. 

[Reezekeys]

22 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

In my situation, on stage with band and an FOH system is the least of my worries.  I have no control what the audience hears whatsoever and I am just happy to be able to hear myself

 

I assumed we were discussing smaller gigs with no FOH, or a small PA just for vocals - the gigs where we have to cover all the sonic bases with whatever amp setups we schlep.

 

23 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

So if I am hearing this right, don't bother with the portable PAs.  They are compromised sonically by design to be compact and light weight.  Wooden enclosures tend to sound better than molded plastic.

 

I'll likely never have the opportunity to experience my rig up close through high-end wood-cabinet speakers. That's probably a good thing! Pretty much everything in life is a compromise; in terms of my amplification, I choose the "less schlep" side. I'm grateful for my plastic QSCs - and I think they sound pretty good too, certainly good enough for me! AFA the Stagepasses, yea those cabs are pretty thin (the Ks seem to be heftier, more dense/rigid plastic) and may be a little underpowered for some types of gigs as well - but isn't the selling point having the mixer built into one speaker, cable storage in the other, and both clipping together to be easily portable? I'm guessing there's a market for that level of convenience in a portable PA, maybe not keyboardists playing loud gigs.

[cphollis]

For smaller acoustic gigs, you just can't beat a linear speaker pole/sub combo: Bose, TurboSound et. al.  I am a huge fan of playing in stereo, but it just *sounds better* in mono.  I maintain a handful of patches for just this purpose.  For louder and stereo, IEMs and an old XR18 (or a pair of small mixers) to mix "more me" with monitor feed.  If it's a situation where I'm expected to bring stage amplification to compete with drums, guitar, etc. it's a pair of RCF TT08s as @Al Quinnand others if there's room, otherwise it's my trusty CPS SSv3 which I have learned to appreciate in certain situations.

 

[Al Quinn]

I've played with powered speakers low like Rob and that approach worked well for jazz but didn't project well enough for electric blues and classic rock in a crowded bar. I'm also thinking that might not be the best approach if also amplifying vocals as some highs will likely get lost. Elmer, I think what you're describing is what I view as two powered speakers basically used as a PA with the piano going through them. I've done that several times and it sounds great. In that case, I've had the speakers a little bit behind and above my head in a position where I could hear them well (but not too well). The only downside is I wasn't able to center myself between the speakers (although perhaps you can) but it didn't matter to me because using two speakers is not about stereo in this case but, rather, it's about creating a beautiful sounding spaciousness that digital pianos benefit greatly from. 

[timwat]

43 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

The scenario I'm more interested in for a stereo setup is solo piano, duo, trio with acoustic instruments/vocal.  Where the digital piano is really replacing an acoustic piano.  

 

So if I am hearing this right, don't bother with the portable PAs.  They are compromised sonically by design to be compact and light weight.  Wooden enclosures tend to sound better than molded plastic.  I'm probably better off with a pair of good speakers than having both in one box like the 610S because I can place them at just the right distance apart to create a better image for me and the audience in the vicinity.  
 

I’d love to set up a pair of magnepans (ribbon speakers) with a well matched audiophile amp.  But I don’t know if ribbon speakers can handle the schlep and they aren’t inexpensive to replace. 

 

Every live situation is an unhappy marriage of compromises. No one gigs Maggies and tube mono blocks; too expensive, too fragile, to large and heavy. But they do sound marvelous.

 

Frankly, most of us won't gig quality wood 3 ways either. Again, heavy, expensive. But they also sound marvelous - and I might suggest an order of magnitude more marveliciousness than plastic 2 ways. 

 

And in a pinch, I'd rather gig a StagePAS than a Roland KC muppet hide amp...if those were my only two choices.

 

In real gig life where our gig income takes multiple gigs to cover the cost of these kinds of purchases, I'm never going to replicate a studio quality audio experience for the audience on my dime. I've gigged a pair of DXRs for years - essentially, a plastic 2-way PA speaker. They sound MORE than good enough for the kind of gig you're referring to, they travel easy, they approximate an acoustic piano in the room good enough, they don't hog the sheets or leave crumbs in the bed.

[obxa]

For years I've always defaulted to some variation of a Yamaha slab piano (P-series with built in speakers) as my bottom board, and used by itself for solo/cocktail/ceremony gigs.  

 

Besides hearing in stereo, the Yamaha's system gave a sense of vibration that gave you somewhat of a connection to the instrument.   With solo  &  small format gigs, I normally used it with a Bose L1, and was hearing more from the internals than the Bose.    I rarely used just the Yamaha speakers, unless it was a simple rehearsal- or church ceremony/funeral with marble floors.   Interestingly,  I did have many instances where sound people would ask me to turn off the Yamaha's speakers on band gigs.    I was never totally delighted with the sound,  but mostly satisfied with that set up for low volume stuff. 

 

 I've recently switched over to mainly using a Numa X piano.  I've struggled to get a mono sound  I'm happy with, at least tweaking on the gig.   Finally realized  those speakers in my old Yamaha for better or worse,  really did  help create a sense of air and depth that made for a better playing experience.   Before I gave up on it,   I  spent an afternoon tweaking Numa presets specifically for use with the Bose, and also better suited for mono use.  That helped immensely.   I've considered adding a TV sound-bar for the sole purpose of low volume stereo just for my pleasure, or adding another Bose.  

 

Most of my other regular (louder)  gigs,  I use in-ears 95% of the time.   Occasionally a Behringer  keyboard amp which I consider "blunt force trauma" more than fidelity.  I do a lot of shows and church stuff where IEM mixes are provided (and encouraged....).   But still do several where they want to give me wedges, which I despise most times.  I'll just tell them to strike them, and use my IEM rig even if I have to patch into nothing but a band mix.  For gigs that don't even have that option, I use a stereo ambient mic that feeds the IEMs as a stage mix.  The mic is also helpful for communicating.

                            

I LOVE keys in stereo, but have  painfully realized I'll never attain the fidelity I want on anything that's at combat volume with speakers.   Used to do 2 Barbettas or Mackie 450s  on band gigs.   I've  considered the EV's which are good bang for the buck and sound great.   But for the average bar or wedding band gig- that can be a real estate challenge.  Not to mention the danger and fatigue to your ears.      I've read with great interest about the Motion Sound stereo amp.  I've also looked getting a Leslie studio 12.   Awesome and enjoyable for organ-centric gigs, but then back to the problem of piano.   

 

I really do think band gigs and solo-small format are two distinct environments, and have to be treated as such as far as monitoring is concerned.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SMcD]

Two years ago, I permanently lost hearing in my left ear (long story). Stereo is wasted on me now.

If anyone's figured out a way to approximate the presence and "oomph" of an AP with a mono'd DP, I'd love to hear your advice.

[ElmerJFudd]

34 minutes ago, cphollis said:

For smaller acoustic gigs, you just can't beat a linear speaker pole/sub combo: Bose, TurboSound et. al.  I am a huge fan of playing in stereo, but it just *sounds better* in mono.  I maintain a handful of patches for just this purpose.  For louder and stereo, IEMs and an old XR18 (or a pair of small mixers) to mix "more me" with monitor feed.  If it's a situation where I'm expected to bring stage amplification to compete with drums, guitar, etc. it's a pair of RCF TT08s as @Al Quinnand others if there's room, otherwise it's my trusty CPS SSv3 which I have learned to appreciate in certain situations.

 

CP 

 

Tell me if you can answer this.  With all the column speakers out there.  Like the Bose and the EV where they plug into a sub.  These are mono solutions, yes?   We would need two of them to run in stereo.   And with the wide dispersion they offer that can get messy  if they aren’t placed far apart.  Also, I think most of them connect wirelessly a which I’m guessing is Bluetooth? That doesn’t sound like a good feeling for live playing.  

[Mighty Motif Max]

13 hours ago, timwat said:

To my ears, I'll respectfully disagree with just a bit of this, just anecdotally having used (or been forced to use) some of these.  Specifically, to my ears the Yamaha StagePAS system (or, MSR series...I think they are identical but could be wrong here) sounds like a** (so agree with you there). I'm not sure if it's because the cabs aren't rigid enough, or the elements are underpowered, or if they are poorly designed for the sake of portability...but just...no.

 

But IMHO the DXR is an entirely different beast, head and shoulders better (and to my ears marginally better than the QSCs at the same price point), and I still use them to this day. 

 

All that being said, in my experience, the best you're going to get for piano is a well-designed, adequately-braced, quality-built wooden enclosure as a 3-way. And that's not going to be cheap, or necessarily easy to schlep. But it will sound better than any of the plastic 2-way speakers we're talking about.

 

Interesting...I actually like the MSR's, it's the Fender Passports that I think sound like crap. I've gigged with an MSR100 (8") since 2013 and have paired it with a DXR10 a few times and, to me, once levels were balanced, they sounded very, very close. I got an EV ELX200-10P last year, and I do prefer the MSR's sound a bit more - mainly the midrange. But to me they sound very close to the DXR range, which is a sound that I really like. That said, there have been a variety of StagePas models through the years, so I can't vouch for most of them for certain.

[timwat]

It may be that the MSRs sound a lot different than the StagePAS system? The StagePAS's I've had the displeasure of having to use...meh. They are certainly convenient for living room rehearsals, but in my anecdotal that's probably the kindest thing I'd say about them.

 

But I'm unsure if the system is the same as MSRs, or perhaps there are models in the lines I hadn't used.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, obxa said:

I really do think band gigs and solo-small format are two distinct environments, and have to be treated as such as far as monitoring is concerned.

Yes, band gigs at large venues aren’t my favorite any longer, if they ever were.  I suppose in my teens and early twenties the crowd was exciting.  At some point those conditions start to feel like just going through the motions.

Perhaps it’s self indulgent to prefer acoustic pianos and want to replicate that small club, chamber music feeling. Other than church gigs, the acoustic pianos have all but dried up. 🥲

 

 Since no one makes exactly what I want there will have to be a compromise.  I’ll dig for the best sounding pair of monitors at a reasonable weight and price and be done with it.  

[Al Quinn]

I usually don't do the types of gigs Elmer's describing but have had some yard parties where we setup a couple of powered speakers as a PA for piano and vocals and just mess around for fun. It's a pleasure playing with this setup. I wish the video started earlier because my daughter nailed the vocal. My nephew's on a bass and a friend is on acoustic guitar.

 

 

[cphollis]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

CP 

 

Tell me if you can answer this.  With all the column speakers out there.  Like the Bose and the EV where they plug into a sub.  These are mono solutions, yes?   We would need two of them to run in stereo.   And with the wide dispersion they offer that can get messy  if they aren’t placed far apart.  Also, I think most of them connect wirelessly a which I’m guessing is Bluetooth? That doesn’t sound like a good feeling for live playing.  

I can answer this, because I tried it, and the juice was not worth the squeeze, IMHO.  Two Bose L1 Model II with bass cabinet as FOH for an electric band.  I used them like regular PA systems out front.  Nothing wrong with the sound per se, other than completely lacking the punch you'd expect from a traditional design.  Maybe if I had 4 or more acoustic players it'd be nice, but otherwise .... I'd stick with something more traditional.

 

The only thing I'd use bluetooth for is streaming break music from my phone, as it has poor latency.  

 

I use in mine in mono.  For example, a microbrewery with a cavernous, irregular space where we're playing as an acoustic trio.  A garden patio party.  That sort of thing.  Much nicer ambience and listenability than a pair of FOH speakers.  Not concert-level volumes

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

I usually don't do the types of gigs Elmer's describing but have had some yard parties where we setup a couple of powered speakers as a PA for piano and vocals and just mess around for fun. It's a pleasure playing with this setup. I wish the video started earlier because my daughter nailed the vocal. My nephew's on a bass and a friend is on acoustic guitar.

 

 

Musical family and friends, Al.  That’s exactly the vibe I’m talking about.   I just want the digital piano to sound like a piano, to be able to hear and interact with the other instruments, set an acoustic-like volume and control dynamics with velocity.  
 

You’re using the RCF’s?  8”?  The video seems to suggest they provide enough low end. 

[Al Quinn]

Yes, RCF TTO8As: 8” in birch cabinet. The low end is good; everything is as good as what’s feed into them. I suspect there are other good choices, as has been mentioned; especially for playing at a polite volume. The advantages of the TT08As becomes greater as the volume is raised. They continue to sound clean where other powered monitors I’ve had (i.e., K8 and K10) became unpleasant / boxey sounding. 

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, cphollis said:

I can answer this, because I tried it, and the juice was not worth the squeeze, IMHO.  Two Bose L1 Model II with bass cabinet as FOH for an electric band.  I used them like regular PA systems out front.  Nothing wrong with the sound per se, other than completely lacking the punch you'd expect from a traditional design.  Maybe if I had 4 or more acoustic players it'd be nice, but otherwise .... I'd stick with something more traditional.

 

The only thing I'd use bluetooth for is streaming break music from my phone, as it has poor latency.  

 

I use in mine in mono.  For example, a microbrewery with a cavernous, irregular space where we're playing as an acoustic trio.  A garden patio party.  That sort of thing.  Much nicer ambience and listenability than a pair of FOH speakers.  Not concert-level volumes

Helpful.  That’s one of the great things about this place.   There seems to always be someone who has tried a piece of kit.  

[obxa]

3 hours ago, cphollis said:

can answer this, because I tried it, and the juice was not worth the squeeze, IMHO.  Two Bose L1 Model II with bass cabinet as FOH for an electric band.  I used them like regular PA systems out front.  Nothing wrong with the sound per se, other than completely lacking the punch you'd expect from a traditional design.  Maybe if I had 4 or more acoustic players it'd be nice, but otherwise .... I'd stick with something more traditional.

 

I had the same results using two Bose (Boses, Bosi?)  with jazz trio with added vocalist and sax in a small restaurant reception.    Was great for  dinner set, but once we got a little more ambitious with some RnB, the Bose started straining and hard to keep up.. 

 

INMHO  Bose, (or similar stick-line array system) are best suited for low impact things where you know you're not going to get out of second gear.  Event planners love them because they don't look loud, and there are no speaker poles.     For solo small stuff, great option for hit and run gigs with crappy load -ins.  Not something I want to hear all night though.    I'm planning on trying a sound-bar on the floor facing up at me on my next extended solo gig as a low-rent stereo monitor purely for self-indulgence.

 

 

I've  run the house grand piano  with a Barcus Berry through the L1 compact on some nursing home gigs along with Clarinet.   RE: acoustic players. Exactly.     Occasionally moonlight on  Uke and an Ibanez Acoustic guitar style  bass  (with an amp) in a Bluegrass band.  They've got one of the newer big Bose with bigger subs.  For what they run into it (Mando, Banjo, Fiddle, Vocals,  and my Harp amp mic'd... ) it sounds perfect.  

 

4 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Perhaps it’s self indulgent to prefer acoustic pianos and want to replicate that small club, chamber music feeling. Other than church gigs, the acoustic pianos have all but dried up

It's a shame. Down here- I find many assisted living places ironically have some nice and well maintained pianos.  But many hotels, event places,  and country clubs the pianos are neglected and pitiful. 

 

Al, as always that's some mighty fine playing!!

[b3plyr]

28 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

Yes, RCF TTO8As: 8” in birch cabinet. The low end is good; everything is as good as what’s feed into them. I suspect there are other good choices, as has been mentioned; especially for playing at a polite volume. The advantages of the TT08As becomes greater as the volume is raised. They continue to sound clean where other powered monitors I’ve had (i.e., K8 and K10) became unpleasant / boxey sounding. 

Maybe the original QSC Ks but not so much the .2 series. The bottom end on the K8.2s is also pretty impressive.

[stoken6]

19 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

My thought is by placing the speakers off-axis to my ears I'll be able to crank them up and also attenuate as needed by moving them forward or back and can make micro adjustments by slight swivels to the left or right. It'll also avoid the issue of shooting into a band members ears (and mine). Will it work? We'll see! I suspect others have tried something like this and can share if it works for them.

I've done this at jam sessions where my wedge has to serve as FoH and monitor. I've angled it over my left ear - if North is "straight at the audience", I've rotated it about 20 degrees east to give me a hint of my sound. It worked OK. (I much prefer a proper monitor mix into my wedge, or in-ears).

 

Cheers, Mike.