Gig report - first "all iOS" (long!)

[Reezekeys]

Obviously the Ravenscroft through your K8s didn"t work for you, but let"s keep our eyes open and fingers crossed for Pianoteq iOS.

Not exactly true - I haven't hauled my K8s in from the garage as I got waylaid with sampling some stuff into AudioLayer. I tried getting the free "Salamander" piano in there (linked to in an earlier post in this thread by Groove On) but it was a bust. Playing it loaded into my Mac showed me that it was a possibility for iOS gigging, if not ideal. But, converting the .sd2 to .sfz then importing into AudioLayer didn't work - lots of missing samples, zones, etc. I might try again. And, I'll get to checking out Ravenscroft later today!

[brenner13]

I think that Salamander piano will load into bs-16i, but it is a total CPU crunch on my iPad 5. I was successful with the 2Grands-Plus-Insruments-v3.7.sf2, but it still errors out at start-up sometimes; not enough memory in RAM or some such error message. Have to close all other apps and turn on airplane mode, and still sometimes requires holding down the iPad power button for 5 seconds to hard reboot before the sound fonts it will launch in the app. Once it loads, seems to be pretty stable.

 

I like the Chateau Grand the best, but it has those character anomalies. Perhaps the Large Concert Grand or the Yamaha C5 Grand may be cleaner versions with wider appeal.

[miden]

It has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, but I do believe Pianoteq for iOS may just be the saviour! The BIG issue I see for them, is not it running on the latest iOS hardware which has plenty of CPU grunt (needed to run modeled instruments) , it'd be Apple's requirement for running on legacy gear...although maybe apple have mollified the policy and will allow Modartt to specify minimum cpu specs??

 

I for one (if I had an older iPad) would upgrade it to run Pianoteq. Being modeled means you pretty much get the PC version, no sample layers and size to worry about. The caveat being that running it might impinge on running other apps concurrently.

[AnotherScott]

my go-to pianos of the last 15 years or so have been NI on my Mac...part of the equation is the keyboard's velocity curve setting and making sure its 1 to 127 range matches your own dynamics...I'm not saying the NI pianos I use are the best, just that I've been very happy with them and my little plastic Roland A800 pro in regards to everything I just mentioned. And unfortunately that's why these iOS pianos - the ones I've tried up to now â have fallen short for me, usually for their lack of dynamics. The fact that Colossus can do an iOS piano with twenty-something layers tells me it can be done.

While velocity layers are part of the experience you've described, I think that the bigger issue in your case may be all the velocity curve tweaking that is available in NI. Am I correct in assuming that you've spent some time with that? Because that's something that's absent in iOS pianos, and something that can be especially important in trying to get a piano to play as naturally as possible from a non-hammer action. If you're trying to get an iOS piano to respond as naturally as possible, I wonder if the answer could be to first route the MIDI through an app that gives you finer control over the velocity response between your keys and the piano app. Midiflow is probably a good choice for that.

 

Back on the subject of Colossus, I like its Electric Grand (CP70/CP80) sound. I'm not sure what other apps have that sound. There's one in Korg Module that is not as good, though Module also has their "80s Electric PIano" IAP which includes another, which I haven't heard, has anyone tried/compared that one? Any other suggestions for best sounding electric grand?

[brenner13]

I hear five velocity switches on Neo-Soul Keys Studio 2"s CP70.

[AnotherScott]

I hear five velocity switches on Neo-Soul Keys Studio 2"s CP70.

How do you compare it's overall sound/playability to the one in Colossus?

[brenner13]

I"m away from the rig today. Perhaps I can check it out tomorrow.

I"ve really very little experience with that type of EP.

[Reezekeys]

While velocity layers are part of the experience you've described, I think that the bigger issue in your case may be all the velocity curve tweaking that is available in NI. Am I correct in assuming that you've spent some time with that? Because that's something that's absent in iOS pianos, and something that can be especially important in trying to get a piano to play as naturally as possible from a non-hammer action. If you're trying to get an iOS piano to respond as naturally as possible, I wonder if the answer could be to first route the MIDI through an app that gives you finer control over the velocity response between your keys and the piano app. Midiflow is probably a good choice for that.

Yes I have mentioned my Roland A800's settings for both velocity curves and basic dynamic response, i.e., four curves with each one having a separate "light", "medium" and "heavy" variation to account for a player's touch. So, twelve settings in all.

 

The Kontakt pianos have settings to make too. Seven curves to pick from, plus a "dynamics" control that compresses or expands the dynamic range - so for example you can vary your velocities and play every layer of piano samples but they'll all come out at around the same volume. Between these settings and what I can do with the keyboard, it gets pretty mind-numbing. I decided to start with having everything in the NI pianos at their default and getting my A800 adjusted to where things sound and felt the best to me, then tweaking the NI adjustments. It took a minute, and I may have changed things around through the years as I got better adjusted to playing my setup.

 

The iOS pianos I've tried so far - Pure Piano and Korg Module (their basic free one and Ivory American D) both allow simple velocity curve adjustments, but they can't make up for the lack of dynamic range in the samples themselves. At least that's my theory on why I can't get these guys to feel right to me. Midiflow looks really cool and I may try it, although AUM already does some of that stuff. I did have some success with an app I already have, StreamByter, but that requires programming experience. It was through the help of a user on their forum that I got a velocity remapping script going so I could use Module as an AUv3 (where its own velocity remapper is not exposed â that's only in standalone).

[brenner13]

Colossus" CP80 (the first one, right?) is super smooth to play, as if derived from a fully-restored-to factory-spec unit. That long, beautiful decay is just phenomenal. The pad layer is perfect for sweet, spacey ballads.

 

Neo-Soul Keys Studio2"s CP70 is a road worn example that has lots of dents, dings, plinks, and plunks. While it has far more dynamic range to effectively bark when spanked, the velocity changes are very abrupt and rather distracting at first and they require a bit of practice to keep it from sounding like a random LFO is in control of velocity. That adjustable release noise is a hoot! Love it.

 

Going back and forth, I really cannot objectively consider one better than the other because they are so vastly different. Playing a trippy funk tune? Nail it with Neo-Soul. Got a power-ballad? Colossus will make it shine.

[brenner13]

While A/B-ing iOS stuff tonight, my tweaked Ravenscroft preset sounded big and full and robust. Colossus" big grand was a bit thin as if an EQ had rolled off the low end at about 250hz.

 

Tomorrow Ravenscroft might sound muddy and lackluster, and Colossus might sound like a shimmering sunbeam dancing off of a pond"s surface though the mist of morningâ¦if such a thing had sound. Weird how our brains interpret the senses differently day to day.

[Groove On]

... although maybe apple have modified the policy and will allow Modartt to specify minimum cpu specs?? ... I for one (if I had an older iPad) would upgrade it to run Pianoteq.

I am very confident Pianoteq iOS will run well on most older iPads/iPhones. I went through a phase running Pianoteq on budget computers, so I know the benchmarks pretty well. Anything with an 8th gen. (A8) CPU or higher should comfortably run Pianoteq. You'll find the A8 in the iPhone 6 and iPads released after the iPad 4 Mini.

 

Data point:

The Raspberry Pi 4 and Odroid N2 Plus computers run Pianoteq nicely with slightly lower than standard settings. In terms of CPU power, they are equivalent to the 7th gen. (A7) CPU. You'll find the A7 in the original iPad Air and the iPhone 5 series.

 

Data point:

My 2015 MacBook Air runs Pianoteq perfectly, with all standard settings. It is equivalent in CPU power to the 10th gen. (A10) CPU. You'll find the A10 in the iPhone 7 and 6th gen. iPads. Using Apple device with the newest A15/M1 CPUs will be like running Pianoteq on Star Trek level technology.

 

.. and of course Pianoteq's RAM and disk space needs are ridiculously low: 256 MB RAM and 50+ MB of disk space.

 

Pianoteq is heavily CPU dependent, so one big question is - can the heat sink in the iPads/iPhones handle it without severely throttling the CPU. My guess is probably yes, but we won't know until we know.

[obxa]

"Tomorrow Ravenscroft might sound muddy and lackluster, .....Weird how our brains interpret the senses differently day to day."

 

 

I go through this every time I think I've finally gotten my Ipad apps (or Mainstage) to be the central primary sound source.

 

After years of this, I've finally decided I love apps as my secondary sound sources, just like we used to do with midi rack stuff.. E.G.: Pads, brass, vibes, strings etc. etc. - but as primary heavy lifting, I like having a dedicated piano thing that makes its own sound when I'm playing piano, and/or an organ source when it's an organ-centric gig and rig. I'll happily use all Ipad or Mainstage only for rehearsals.

 

I went through the same constant of things sounding different from gig to gig and I too use IEMs. Hardware does that too, but it's much easier to tweak my Nord and Mojo to taste especially throughout the gig. Plus I like the safety factor of a hybrid rig in case something craps out.

 

I've used Pianoteq via Mainstage for a long while. It's worked fairly well as my piano (plus Clav/EP) for my Mojo rig, so I'm interested how well it translates under IOS. Never been totally satisfied with the Korg Module A Pianos and Eps live, unless it's just brief parts. Totally agree that Scarbee on Module sounds great at home, but on the gig just can never get it quite right. Because of its lower tech, the humble Korg Module Wurli actually works pretty well. For whatever reason, I've often had better luck with the Logic (Mainstage/Garage Band) Organ over the IK.

[Stokely]

I honestly haven't noticed it with B-3X. It sounds fantastic every time I use it, I positively feel inspired to play it.

 

I only have two beefs, one minor and one major. The minor one is having to cable up the ipad, while it's easier than using an interface, I still have the CCK and cables (extra one to charge the ipad) kind of hanging over the edge of my keyboard. Very minor beef as I said.

 

The other is just that I keep having these periods where it won't work, until I re-connect and reboot things until it does. If I knew for certain sure that it's (for example) the order of the way I'm connecting and turning things on/opening the app, I'd feel much better about it. It's hard to troubleshoot because it works *almost* all the time--but a few gigs it simply hasn't, and troubleshooting that stuff gets me "out of sorts" for singing and playing

 

When I get my PC4--if I ever get the @#$% backordered thing--I'm going to try my best to get the organ to a great place, then re-eval whether I really need the ipad even for two-keyboard gigs. If I feel the PC4 will work--and I did many a gig with the PC361 as my organ so I think it can--I can always midi the MODX to it and play the organ from it. I used to do this with a weighted controller that I used with my PC361, except I played the piano and not organ. I've also been pretty impressed with the Lester K pedal demos so because the PC4 has separate outs, that is a potential option if indeed it is an improvement (not sure). Lots of options! For now I'm still bringing the ipad and will see if I can establish a set way to set it up and turn it on so that it doesn't have the glitches. The sound is really top notch. Heck the Moog apps I have on it are probably better than either keyboard as well, but not going there yet!

[Reezekeys]

After years of this, I've finally decided I love apps as my secondary sound sources, just like we used to do with midi rack stuff.. E.G.: Pads, brass, vibes, strings etc. etc. - but as primary heavy lifting, I like having a dedicated piano thing that makes its own sound when I'm playing piano, and/or an organ source when it's an organ-centric gig and rig. I'll happily use all Ipad or Mainstage only for rehearsals.

For my needs - bread & butter sounds for older music, e.g. pianos, string pads, organ, clav, etc., laptops & VIs offered me a way to bring much higher-quality sounds to a gig back when I started doing this. I did this primarily for myself, to enjoy playing. Whether or not the audience or bandleader knew or cared didn't matter to me. If I had been in a cover band playing songs needing specific synth patches, with set lists that might change (and where I'd need to quickly switch patches netween songs) then maybe hardware would have been a better choice, although with my Plogue Bidule setup I can program pretty much anything I need - it just takes a little more time and work.

 

I think it's inevitable that soon we'll see the iOS (and Andoid?) virtual instrument world equal what I can do on my Mac right now. So far, the pianos have fallen short for me, but I haven't heard every one out there; maybe there's one waiting for me to discover, or maybe Pianoteq will come through.

 

I've missed playing gigs during this pandemic but one thing that I haven't missed is humping my gear in & out of car trunks (boots to you UK folk!), putting it on my hand truck, shlepping, setting up, and doing the reverse at the end of the gig. Starting up that part of the equation again really brings home how much I hope for the day when I can mount an iPad or iPhone to my little keyboard, everything running on batteries, and enjoy myself like I do with my Mac right now. Lots of good info in this thread and the other few that I've seen regarding iOS music apps. Today I will finally get to listening to Rod's Ravenscroft file through my K8s. Ya never know, I might be inspired to give that piano a try. There does seem to be conflicting opinions on it, but that's probably par for the course given the wide range of tastes and differing music styles of the players here.

[Theo Verelst]

Computers and certainly less powerful devices aren't necessarily capable of achieving the appropriate horsepower like specialists hardware devices, and also usually computer equipment will be far from real time suitable, especially with constant and/or very low latency. Special chips and specific types signal enhancements aren't in computer devices as far as I know unless you put the streaming software components together for it yourself.

 

T.

[AnotherScott]

After years of this, I've finally decided I love apps as my secondary sound sources, just like we used to do with midi rack stuff.. E.G.: Pads, brass, vibes, strings etc. etc. - but as primary heavy lifting, I like having a dedicated piano thing that makes its own sound when I'm playing piano, and/or an organ source when it's an organ-centric gig and rig. I'll happily use all Ipad or Mainstage only for rehearsals.

Organ is where I'd most prefer to have a dedicated board, though I rarely do, because there are often too many compromises making an organ-focussed board my first or second board, and I don't want to bring a third!

 

The reason I think organ benefits most from being in the board are...

... there is usually a button which makes the sound instantly in sync with the drawbars

... there is usually high trigger (sometimes also available over MIDI, but often not)

... the size/spacing of the drawbar controls is usually better than on non-organ boards even if those boards have 9 sliders (unless maybe you're supplementing your non-organ board with a dedicated drawbar controller)

... although I'm not a purist for waterfall keys, it's a nice extra perk

 

The first of those is the biggest, because even if you use a clonewheel AS your software organ controller (in which case you'll often get the other three), you still won't get that first one.

[Stokely]

I couldn't agree more...in a perfect world where i could teleport my gear and stages were large enough for L-config (or3-tier stands had many good options for tall standing players!), I'd bring three keyboards. An all rounder weighted, a mostly-synth, and an mostly-organ. But I just won't go there for the types of gigs I do. Additionally, patch leveling becomes compounded with multiple keyboards, and of course you need to check patches mono and stereo (or at least I do, some of my gigs I have to go mono if the soundperson says that's what they have....) My current, long-running band is more toward piano and organ than synth, though I'm pushing things in that direction a bit