Live Performance in the Age of Covid

[KuruPrionz]

^^Lol!

 

Good one!!!

[Notes_Norton]

For most of us, there is a place between throwing caution to the wind or becoming a hermit to avoid the possibility of getting infected.

 

For me, neither extreme is a good idea -- YMMV

 

I try to minimize my risks, knowing I can't completely eliminate them. I'm triple vaccinated, I'm minimizing my exposure in indoor locations, and only taking outdoor gigs. So far I've been lucky.

 

We got rained out yesterday, but a rain cancellation is better than an illness cancellation. I've been in this business since the late 1960s, and I've never-ever missed a gig. I think knowing that I would have to work even if I'm sick (everything is memorized, nobody can step in at a moment's notice) keeps my immune system vigorous. There is no scientific evidence for that.

 

However, I wasn't the healthiest child, and had my share of school sick days. My first year out, I got sick, and gigged with a 104 degree fever. I haven't gotten sick much since then. I get a mild cold every 15 years or so, and that's it.

 

Am I protected from COVID? I don't know, but I'm not going to take too many chances either. I suspect with a strong immune system, a healthy weight, vaccine/booster shots, and some prudence, if I get it, it'll probably be mild. But as the guy on an NPR interview said, "It's difficult to make predictions. Especially about the future."

 

I'm currently running 5 definite outdoor gigs per month, plus some condominium and retirement development parties sprinkled on the calendar. It's not like it was in 2019 but it's quite a bit better than 2020.

 

Life is the perfect way to spend the time of day.

 

Notes â«

[Anderton]

If you want to see stats and such, go to Twitter and search on @DrWilliamKu. There's also a web site with scary stuff at https://www.covid19odds.com/ It's a globally oriented site, and the bottom line is that many other countries are much better than the US at coming up with data on which to base decisions.

 

It does appear that the "living with Covid" thing isn't working out, and being indoors is an issue. So again, all signs are pointing to live performance being an outside activity at best.

[Anderton]

Am I protected from COVID? I don't know, but I'm not going to take too many chances either. I suspect with a strong immune system, a healthy weight, vaccine/booster shots, and some prudence, if I get it, it'll probably be mild.

 

I just saw that Florida is recording an average of 7,068 daily coronavirus cases, a 294 percent increase over the past two weeks. What a shame, after having a bit of a lull...you're smart to be careful.

[Jazzmammal]

It's funny I've been following this thread for the last several weeks and 90% of the posts could be condensed down to one per poster. A whole lot of repeated opinions being written here. Here's the Cliff Notes: Desantis sucks. We don't have enough info about Omicron. We're losing gigs and finally, it's the unvaxxed fault. Does that about cover it?

 

I've had a pretty busy December for gigging. Six so far with NYE coming up at another yacht club in Ventura. I live in SoCal with one of the highest vax rates in the country in the mid 70's which still leaves a substantial number of unvaxxed. I've had two Yacht Club gigs, one very high end big band gig at the Palos Verdes Golf Club. one very high end private party at Huntington Harbor with a 79 foot spaceship yacht docked literally 20 feet from the guys pool patio and two little restaurant gigs. Nobody wore masks at any of them and I was especially surprised at the PV Golf Club. There were just under 200 people there, we were warned via email that the club had their COVID protocols in place so bring masks. The crowd was the typical ages for this type of event roughly 50-75. Not a mask in sight other than staff and they were not about to ruffle the feathers of all these millionaires in the crowd. It doesn't matter what's happening with the virus, Omicron or whatever. People are done with all this and are just going to accept it's all around us and we'll deal with it. Government officials know this too including our governor, Biden and everybody else. It's obvious most of them feel feel the same way but they sure are hypocritical about it when they make announcements telling the rest of us what to do.

 

Some comments about Omicron. It really is beginning to look like it's the best thing to happen so far in the long run. Short term it could be a problem for the health care system but possibly not. It's highly transmissable but it also seems to be very mild for the vaxxed so yes, catching it should add to whatever immunity we have from the vaccines. For the unvaxxed it should help to bring some of them around and for the rest, well nothing's changed for them. Most will survive but some will suffer long COVID, some will die and that's it. Your list of prioritizing patients in a hospital is enticing Craig but I think it goes against a doctor's ethics. Triage requires the most critical to be treated first, period. It's irrelevant what the background is. A person shows up in the ER with serious symptoms of whatever, they must get treated first or the hospital and doctors will get sued.

 

Just a few observations. The NBA. I'm a big Lakers fan and the NBA in general. The lakers had 7 players suddenly out with health and saftely protocols, including LeBron James. He came back in two days because apparently it was a false positive or he did catch it but it was over so quick it looked like a false positive, the other players came back after 3 or 4 days and they all said the same thing. They tested positive, had a few very mild symptoms then suddenly tested negative. Omicron seems to be going through the league very fast. Players go out, are back in a few days and other players go out. I think that's a good thing, get it over with. Jim Cramer on the CNBC morning stock market shows is triple vaxxed but caught Omicron last Thursday at a big event where everyone had to prove they were vaxxed. He was mildly sick for a day and a half, tested negative on Sunday and Monday and is back on set.

 

There are stories like this from all over now. It's not finally definitive yet that it's truly a much milder variant and it's certainly true that Omicron is raging through the population at a rate thats doubling every 2-3 days which is much higher than Delta. Here's the point I want to make. With a virus that is this transmissible I think masking is basically useless against it. I wrote a month ago about what doctors have been saying about the types of masks people should wear and it's not the basic cloth masks or the really useless gaiters thing that people wear around their necks liks a scarf and just pull it up over their noses when they go somewhere that requires a mask. The proper mask has to be two things, an N95 equivalent and two, it must be properly fitted. I see very few people wearing that type of mask AND it's tight around the face. Omicron is so virulent it's going to get into your body by easily blowing right through a basic cloth mask or gaiter or sneaking around the edges of a poorly fitting N95 or surgical mask. That means we're all going to get it and it's probably sooner rather than later. Think about it. Omicron is highly transmissible and the definition of the name N95 means its only 95% effective ASSUMING it's worn properly. How long can that remaining 5% be kept at bay if you're surrounded by Omicron every time you're out in public? Or, are you going to become a shut in and order your food from Door Dash?

 

I think the general population has come to the same conclusiion and like I've been saying for almost two years, COVID will be with us basically forever and we can't hide from it forever so it's time to recognize that and get on with our lives. The vaccines work pretty well at preventing serious symptoms and hospitalizations but I'm sure there will be exceptions, the new anti viral pills from Pfizer and Moderna are about to be approved and we're safe enough now. Perfectly safe? Of course not but safe enough.

 

Bob

[Anderton]

It's funny I've been following this thread for the last several weeks and 90% of the posts could be condensed down to one per poster. A whole lot of repeated opinions being written here. Here's the Cliff Notes: Desantis sucks. We don't have enough info about Omicron. We're losing gigs and finally, it's the unvaxxed fault. Does that about cover it?

 

Well, not really.

 

* I presented a solution on how to deal with taking care of as many peoples' desires as possible, regardless of vaccination status or political affiliation. I realize doctor's ethically need to base treatment on severity, but when there's more severity than a hospital can handle, the decision can't be made on severity alone. Also remember there are tiers of treatment. Hospitalization isn't just about ICUs and ventilators. So there will probably be more cases than can be handled in the second tier as well.

* We may not have as much info on omicron as we want, but we're getting more info all the time. I posted two sources of actual hard data and recent developments, distilled from multiple countries.

* I just found out today the reason why it's so transmissable is that it comes out through the nose more than the mouth. So you don't have to be talking or shouting to spread it, just breathing. That alters what kind of mask would be most helpful, if any - assuming this turns out to be true.

* Just "living with Covid" hasn't worked out very well in South Korea, UK, Poland, Russia, etc. etc. If a country with South Korea's degree of control can't make it fly, who can? OTOH, even the people who don't like DeSantis have to admit that cases had really gone down after an insane peak. Why? And why are they exploding again? Is the reality that this is all cyclical, and any changes have nothing to do with what we do as humans?

 

The idea that living with it will allow the economy to keep going is hopium. The "living with Covid" countries that have soaring infection and death rates have their economies impacted as well by the disturbances caused by illnesses, loss of productivity, and capital/resources going into maintenance instead of growth. Whether it's as much as a lockdown, I don't know. Probably not, but mass illness is a drag on the economy that can't be swept under the rug.

 

The 800 pound gorilla in the room is that the more Covid circulates, the more it will mutate. Omicron blindsided the entire world. What's next? A mild version that acts like a cold? A new virus that targets children? It just runs its course and disappears? A combined virus that's far worse than anything so far? No one knows. Therefore, any attempt to deal with it has an excellent chance of being wrong.

 

There are no good solutions. In fact, I don't think there are any solutions....except for the "perhaps least worst" one I presented, which lets the people who want to get on with their lives do so, while those who want to can get vaxxed, ignore the outside world, and have fun in their recording studios

 

The real problem isn't people accepting they can live with covid. The real problem is people not accepting the fact that for all our smartphones and big screen TVs, we can be leveled by an organism that is far more attuned to survival than humans, who are pretty effing arrogant and not very bright. Because we're arrogant and stupid, this isn't being handled properly, which just makes things worse.

 

As I've noted before, look up pandemic history, and you'll find that every time after it was over, society was ripped apart and remade - sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. I would love for omicron to turn out to be much milder and the end of the line for virus mutation. But regardless of whether it's that or additional mutations that kill off 1/3 of the world, I don't see ANY preparation for what happens after the pandemic. So in addition to "effing arrogant" and "not very bright," add "short-sighted," too

[KuruPrionz]

It's funny I've been following this thread for the last several weeks and 90% of the posts could be condensed down to one per poster. A whole lot of repeated opinions being written here. Here's the Cliff Notes: Desantis sucks. We don't have enough info about Omicron. We're losing gigs and finally, it's the unvaxxed fault. Does that about cover it?

 

Bob

 

It doesn't quite cover it, no. If one cares to go back through the thread, you are repeating yourself (again), and elaborating upon your thoughts just as others have elaborated on their own positions. Add your opinion to the above and you have a more complete synopsis perhaps. Bear in mind that you live in a area that is 70% vaccinated. There are many areas of this country where that is not even close to being true and they are paying dearly for their "freedom" to "live" with Covid. Just for example, the hospital systems in Spokane WA are completely overwhelmed by the influx of infected individual from Idaho who cannot get the same level of health care in their state.

Spokane natives who are in need of other medical attention are being turned away to accommodate this situation.

 

Perspective, it can enlighten or it can blind.

 

Pot, meet kettle? Cheers, Kuru

[Anderton]

I've also yet to see the parameters of what "living with covid" entails. No big indoor events, like NAMM shows? Or "hey, who cares, we're living with covid...let's go to NAMM!" New filter systems for schools that were never designed to handle this kind of thing? Who pays for that? Social distancing at the post office, or not? Testing every single person who comes into an old age or assisted living place? Or just saying "screw it"? And one more thought about triage...if there are too many severe cases, wouldn't the correct decision be to save those with the greatest odds of surviving? That would be the vaccinated. Or is there some manadatory cutoff, like "if you're under 30, then you get care, regardless." But what does that mean for a person who's 50, vaccinated, and in great shape, compared to an obese 28-year-old anti-vaxxer?

 

People don't want an extreme solution - remove all restrictions (we've seen how that goes), or lock everything down tight (we've seen how that goes, too). So what do you do? Set parameters? As soon as you do, some people will object...and there we go all over again with threats, anger, and grandstanding. Add in the factor that so many people on the internet are functionally illiterate, and you've got a mess on your hands, no matter what.

[Jazzmammal]

Ok, so Florida is having 7000 new cases a day now with a population of 21 million. LA County with a vax rate of 77% is reporting 3000 new cases per day now with a population of 10 million. Equal that out and you're talking 6000 vs 7000. No mask mandates, no lockdowns in FL vs one of the highest mandates and lockdown regimes in the country and this is the difference? This is DeSantis's point and considering Florida has one of the lowest vax rates, it's surprising the difference isn't larger but there it is.

 

I'll agree with you Notes that passing laws against mask mandates including fines is too much but as for the basic concept that masking and other mandates really don't seem to make that much of a difference seems true. And again, it's probably due to people not using the correct masks and not wearing them properly. What really matters is the percent of vaccinations and Florida is one of many states with a low vax rate and the governer can't do anything about people's attitudes about that. Just look at Biden and all the critisism about Trump not being a strong leader because he wasn't pushing everybody to get vaxxed. Biden is pushing that point so hard it's almost ridiculous yet it doesn't matter. Certain people's attitudes about vaxxing haven't changed since vaccines were first invented. There is a large minority who simply will not get vaxxed no matter what anybody tries to tell them about it and the proof it's not just redneck yahoos, look at all the health care professionals including doctors who refused the jab and are now out of their jobs over it. I have a hard time understanding it with that group of people but it's there and that certain percentage has always been there. A President or anybody else won't change them.

 

To me it's so logical and obvious. Yes, the vaccines are new and it can take years for bad long term issues to show themselves but the risk of getting very sick with all the possible long term effects and even death is right now, immediate. Like Craig has said over and over, there are no truly good choices only the lessor of bad choices and to me that choice is the vaccine. The other thing, I just turned 76 and I probably won't live long enough to see any adverse long term effects from the vaccine anyway.

 

Bob

[Jazzmammal]

It's funny I've been following this thread for the last several weeks and 90% of the posts could be condensed down to one per poster. A whole lot of repeated opinions being written here. Here's the Cliff Notes: Desantis sucks. We don't have enough info about Omicron. We're losing gigs and finally, it's the unvaxxed fault. Does that about cover it?

 

Pot, meet kettle? Cheers, Kuru

 

Hahaha, I knew someone would say that and you're correct. All I can say is that's why I haven't posted for a month. As for Spokane I used to use it as a stopover when I was a wholesale truck dealer running rigs from Calgary to the auction in Seattle about oh, two lifetimes back. That was the only time in my life when I didn't have time for gigging. Coeur D'alene Idaho is a beautiful area, I loved stopping there to take a break. In the summer, not so much in February...

 

I never said living with COVID would be easy, I said it's happening now and there is zero appetite with the public or our federal and state leaders to change that at this point. There is no more stimulus money coming from Washington and nobody is going to throw the country into a near economic depression over it again. I said that a year ago too. All that is over. Painful, yes for some but we're living with it now and that won't change and you may have noticed that there is some second thoughts about firing health care people who refused the jab. It's amazing how they were all called hero's (they were and still are) last year and now they're what? Idiots, uncaring, selfish? No, they're professionals who know how to wear the proper masks and other gear and they know how to protect themselves and their patients and the proof is they did it for 18 months already. Now they've somehow forgotten how to do that going forward? Ridiculous. I haven't changed my opinion that everybody should get vaxxed. That's a no brainer for me but still, people have the right to choose not to get the jab and not lose their jobs over it.

 

Bob

[KuruPrionz]

That's a no brainer for me but still, people have the right to choose not to get the jab and not lose their jobs over it.

 

Bob

 

So, employees have rights and employers do not? Please explain the logic there.

The employer will bear the liability in most cases.

[Notes_Norton]

I repeat:

 

People can't drink and drive because there is a potential they can hurt or kill an innocent

People can't smoke indoors because there is a potential they can hurt or kill an innocent

People can't discharge firearms downtown because there is a potential they can hurt or kill an innocent

People can't do other activities that have a potential to harm or kill an innocent.

 

But you are saying people can go out unmasked and unvaccinated even though there is a potential they can hurt or kill an innocent?

 

Tell me how that makes sense.

 

OK some say that Covid is here to stay so the unvaccinated and unmasked are allowed by law to spread disease among the innocent. It's no wonder that the USA has the most COVID deaths of any other country in the world.

 

In a CIVILIZED country, people watch out for their fellow citizens.

 

In a BARBARIAN country, people think "me first and to hell with anyone else's rights"

 

It's too bad way too many people prefer to make the USA a barbarian country.

 

I'm sad for my country. I've seen it when it was much more civilized than it is now. IMO it's going downhill fast.

 

Notes â«

 

 

PS I wear a KN95 mask when I go out and see way too many not wearing masks, wearing weak masks, or leaving their noses out of the mask.

[Anderton]

Employers have certain conditions of employment. There is precedent for that, for example, there are some jobs where you can't smoke. For others you have to take a drug test. For others, you must have had certain immunizations. This is just another condition, and employers have a right to implement what they feel is best for their employees and for the bottom line (hopefully the two coincide). Employees have the right to accept or reject those conditions. It seems pretty clear-cut to me, and not novel.

[GovernorSilver]

Just realized the NFL does not require its players to be vaccinated. Who know what their rules are for non-player employees. To get back on topic, it would be interesting to see how this impacts live performance in the Superbowl.

 

I will stay away from any debate on whether live performance at the Superbowl is actually live, although I do believe Beyonce's lead guitarist played live guitar when it was her turn to play the Superbowl

[KuruPrionz]

Just realized the NFL does not require its players to be vaccinated. Who know what their rules are for non-player employees. To get back on topic, it would be interesting to see how this impacts live performance in the Superbowl.

 

I will stay away from any debate on whether live performance at the Superbowl is actually live, although I do believe Beyonce's lead guitarist played live guitar when it was her turn to play the Superbowl

 

I think it can be either or both. For instance, when Katy Perry did the halftime show it was painfully apparent that she is truly a terrible singer.

 

On the other hand, I got the impression that Lady Gaga's show was for real and they all knocked it out of the park. You can be real and be excellent, if you are really excellent.

 

I don't know much about other shows, I've only watched a couple of them. Football isn't my thing. So it goes...

 

Apparently, this fall/winter, gigging isn't my thing either. Just don't want to go there right now.

[Anderton]

FWIW, when I was with Gibson, one day I had a cold and Henry asked me not to come in so that the other employees wouldn't be exposed. I can easily see that reasoning applied to covid vaccinations. As I said...nothing new about this.

 

If I had come in, he probably wouldn't have fired me. But if I had done it again, I bet he would have.

[KuruPrionz]

FWIW, when I was with Gibson, one day I had a cold and Henry asked me not to come in so that the other employees wouldn't be exposed. I can easily see that reasoning applied to covid vaccinations. As I said...nothing new about this.

 

If I had come in, he probably wouldn't have fired me. But if I had done it again, I bet he would have.

 

And there you go, employers have rights and they have responsibilities to protect ALL of their employees, not just the ones who might spread disease.

 

The bizarre juxtaposition of being a health care worker who will not get a Covid vaccine is certainly cause for dismissal. At that point, the employer is accepting liability for both employees and patients as being wholly their own because they failed to dismiss an employee who would not comply with sensible safety measures during a pandemic.

[Notes_Norton]

IMO the entertainers and the staff in an entertainment venue have a responsibility to avoid harming their patrons. This should extend to health care and all retail businesses.

 

I'm up there playing the saxophone and singing on stage (I use the term stage loosely). I could be broadcasting COVID to my mostly 40-to-80-years-old audience. I should not be allowed to get them sick, any more than a restaurant is allowed to have an unhealthy kitchen. So I'm triple vaccinated and get tested often.

 

We also do a volume check with a Sound Pressure Level meter to make sure we aren't harming their hearing.

 

All the venues in Florida prohibit smoking due to the potential damage they can inflict on others, wearing masks and requiring a vaccine passport are logical additions to that, but the anti-vax cult is in control here.

 

A certain faction of our media and politicians have used anger, fear, and name-calling to create a cult that is violently opposed to preventing themselves and others from getting COVID. They created something that is now out of control, even former president Trump got booed when he asked people to get jabbed. People are calling masked wearers sheep and intentionally coughing on other people and even grocery produce. This is definitely barbarian behavior. What about "Do unto others?"

 

I miss the days when the USA was much more civilized. We have turned into a nation that is full of barbarians.

 

If I want to live in a civilized country, I must act civilized. So I will do my best not to harm any of my neighbors or the people who come out to see us perform.

 

Insights and incites by Notes â«

[GovernorSilver]

Just realized the NFL does not require its players to be vaccinated. Who know what their rules are for non-player employees. To get back on topic, it would be interesting to see how this impacts live performance in the Superbowl.

 

I will stay away from any debate on whether live performance at the Superbowl is actually live, although I do believe Beyonce's lead guitarist played live guitar when it was her turn to play the Superbowl

 

I don't know much about other shows, I've only watched a couple of them. Football isn't my thing. So it goes...

 

Apparently, this fall/winter, gigging isn't my thing either. Just don't want to go there right now.

 

Now that I think about, the Superbowl usually has the performer do their set on a raised platform erected on the middle of the field, thus isolating the performer. Past performances had the main performer occasionally coming into contact with dancers or their guitarist or other person. Smart choreography for this Superbowl should keep them socially distanced.

 

I am guessing there won't be social distancing at all for the crowd, as each ticket costs big time dollars - restricting attendance for social distancing is lost revenue.

 

I'm working on a live set to support my favorite neighborhood coffee shop's open mic night. Maybe this latest COVID surge will have subsided by the time I'm ready. I just saw some established local musos postpone upcoming gigs for later dates due to the surge.

[Jazzmammal]

Sigh. I don't want to sound like an anti vaxxer because I certainly am not that. The big difference between standard immunizations we all got as children and COVID is the COVID vaccines are brand new with no history and it's that point that has many people worried including some health care proressionals. Polio and the other standard immunizations have been around now for 50-75 years with all that history that anybody can research. Where's that for COVID? It doesn't exist yet, we are all taking itr on faith there will be no long term effects and it seems to me that those who are genuniely worried about it should not be forced to take it. As I said for me personally and my advice to all my friends and family is to get vaxxed. The immediate threat is greater than a possible long term threat but stil, you should allow for trhe possiblity younger people could wind up having some long term as yet unknown and possibly serious side effect from a brand new vaccdine that was released under a EULA and then finally fully approved under pretty extreme political pressure. Of course the FDA said they followed their normal approval process and ignored all the pressure but do all of you really believe that? If I was younger I would still get vaxxed but the point would still be in the back of my mind that this is a bit of a roll olf the dice. This is the thinking of a lot of people and I just think they shound not be forced and then lose their jobs if they don't do it.

 

And then there's the economic and health care costs of this. We're not just talking about a small lunatic fringe group here we're talking about 25-30% of the population that includes many front line people from ER docs to police, EMT's, firemen. There was already a severe shortage of those positions even before COVID. One thing Notes is several doctors and nuirses who refused the jab and got fired up north of you are or already have moved tio Florida so that should help with the staffing at your local hospitals but exacerbate the staffing back in their formerely home states. Those of you who live in vax mandate states should think about that, These are not small numbers. Hospitals, LAPD and Fire here in LA have lost quite a few important and experienced staff over this and they're not easy to replace so who's suffering then? Where's the balance?

 

Just something to think about.

 

Some good news. The FDA yesterday approved Pfizer's anti viral pill that is 85% effective in stopping COVID from becoming serious in people who are most at risk of serious hospitalization or death. That is huge, it's the first simple pill that you just pick up at a pharmacy and take at home as opposed to the current threraputics that have to be done in a health care facility. And, there is continuing evidence that Omicron while being highly transmissable really does only produce mild symptoms in vaxxed people, no info yet about unvaxxed.

 

EDIT

 

Here's something that completely blindsided me because I read a lot of news including defense related things:

 

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2021/12/us-army-creates-single-vaccine-effective-against-all-covid-sars-variants/360089/

 

This is really something big. When I was researching studies the VA was doing, they only mentiioned a big project at Walter Reed but did not say it was a completely new type of vaccine against all variants of COVID including the original SARS 2 virus from years ago. They're expectring to realease the results in just a few weeks and it's expected to show great results. If this pans out it could be a holy grail moment not just against COVID but future variants of these novel viruses as well.

 

Bob

[KuruPrionz]

The big difference between standard immunizations we all got as children and COVID is the COVID vaccines are brand new with no history and it's that point that has many people worried including some health care proressionals. Polio and the other standard immunizations have been around now for 50-75 years with all that history that anybody can research.

 

Bob

 

It's easy to paint a rosy picture of previous vaccines but the fact is that they were experimental when new and had their share of dangerous failures.

They also were not "politicized" in the same way that Covid vaccines have been and that is the primary difference here.

 

People took them willingly and despite the problems that some people experienced, polio and smallpox are more or less a thing of the past.

There have been some spectacular failures. Chicken Pox comes to mind, back in the late 50's to early 60's the prevailing belief was that it would be best to simply allow children to get the chicken pox and get it over with, now we know that sets you up for a potential round of Shingles. Currently, over 30% of all Americans get Shingles and those who have not had Chicken Pox are unlikely to contract it. Otherwise, there is a vaccine for that too, I've had both of my Shinglex shots and hope I never get it.

 

The idea that Covid is "new and untested, unlike the vaccines of earlier days" is simply false, yet another way the Covid vaccine has been politicized. If anything, we have incredibly better data and technology now for creating vaccines, which explains why it took years to develop vaccines in the past and no longer does.

 

Go ahead and take a trip through the past, you will see that some folks who had the polio vaccine (just for one) truly suffered for it. No different than now, humans have lots of variables and it's probably impossible to create any vaccine that works effectively and safely for all humanity. That said, the odds are much better for taking the vaccine than for avoiding it, no question of it. Like it or not, we must take a gamble of one sort or another. Like you, I chose to be vaccinated.

Having had a breakthrough case that was mild for 2 days and then asymptomatic "which is frightening in a different way", I am glad to have been vaccinated.

[Anderton]

Human bodies are even more different than Windows machines There's never a one-size-fits-all answer for anything. I think everyone here agrees that, all things considered, the odds of not having problems if you get a shot are at the very least probably better than not getting a shot.

 

Forcing people to get one is dicey, I'm not a fan in principle. The issue with health care workers is more difficult, because by definition, they're working with people who are likely more vulnerable. Every health care worker I know has gotten vaccinated because even if they think they'll only get an asymptomatic infection because they're healthy, they don't want to run the risk of killing their patients.

 

I think there wouldn't be as much resistance if those people accessed higher-quality information. There was an item in the news about people reportedly drinking industrial bleach cocktails to ward off covid. Anyone who thinks drinking bleach does less harm than getting a shot is not doing a whole lot of research.

 

But what I really don't understand is that all of us have gotten a lot of vaccines over the course or our lives, almost all with proven (albeit rare) side effects, and we're still here. Read the side effects of any over-the-counter medicine - even something like Tylenol sounds super-scary. Yet all of a sudden, people have to be drama queens about it. I don't just blame politics for this, people are being drama queens about everything these days. They think that society is in their orbit, not that they're in society's orbit.

 

It's also important to remember that a lot of this talk about "losing your job" is an oversimplification. In many of the stories I've read, employers give employees a choice - get the shot, or get tested regularly. IMHO people who lose their job because they're not willing to get tested (!) have only themselves to blame.

[Jazzmammal]

From what I've read, being given the choice to get tested sounds good until you realize they have to pay for these tests themselves, no insurance pays under that circumstance and that money adds up fast like $600 a month or something like that. Health care workers who've refused the jab is interesting to me. I would love to read a detailed survey of them to find out if the reason is simply being against it on principle or if they have what they think is a reasonable medical reason and if so what is the reason? I understand that just being a highly educated and experienced doctor don't stop a few of them from being a total fruitcake when it comes to this but I'm sure some of them have other reasons too.

 

Kuru you just made my point. 100% of people did not voluntarily take those original vaccines, it was probably about the same as now, 30% refused them and they were never forced to take them until years later and even then the requirement was for children to enter school after they were proven safe (enough) and effecitve. Afaik, adults have never had a "take those vaccines or lose your job" mandate including for the flu and as we all know the flu is pretty serious too. I'm sure there have been certain specific exceptions to that but nothing like what we're seeing now with COVID mandates. And now I just realized another important point. If all these COVID vaccine mandates stick, then you're OK with everybody now being required to show proof of all those childood vaccinations and including the flu and probably other things along with it or risk losing your job? Here's a good one, what about Herpes? It can be passed by cold sores around your mouth and you can put that virus on surfaces so others may catch it. Have an outbreak, you have to stay home? Would that be included now as well? With a little effort I'm sure all of us could come up with many more possibilities of different diseases or conditions that may scare co workers so now you have to show proof your not contageous or you've had all your shots like your dog has to or you go on suspension or even get fired. It's easy to say oh, they'll never do that COVID is the rare exception. People need to think this through to it's logical conclusion. Give government at all levels an inch to rule your life and they will take a mile.

 

FYI go back to my post from this morning, I had edited it to include a link about a new vaccine development by he Army at Walter Reed.

 

I'm going to add a little more to this because I think it's important. We're all talking about protecting society as a whole, right? We don't want to pass on a serious disease to others, right? We agree with mandates against smoking, right? Ok take it a step further. What is equal or even worse than smoking by stats? I think it's number 3 on the list. Obesity. How long before they start mandating everybody with a BMI above a certain level must get their weight down or lose their job? What? Why? The same reason we all agree with banning smoking. Ir raises health care costs for everybody and it's just common sense. If we removed all the fat people from the ER's and hospitals, voila a lot more space for the rest of us. The only difference is you don't catch getting fat through second hand obesity, but it's still the same principle, we're mandating public health policy.

 

Bob

[Anderton]

We don't want to pass on a serious disease to others, right?

 

Obesity is not transmissable.

 

It raises health care costs for everybody

 

People who are obese cannot be denied health insurance, but they can be (and are) charged a higher premium, and are subject to exclusions. So are smokers. This is why it would not be at all unusual for health insurers to say they don't cover hospital costs for unvaccinated people.

[Anderton]

From what I've read, being given the choice to get tested sounds good until you realize they have to pay for these tests themselves, no insurance pays under that circumstance and that money adds up fast like $600 a month or something like that.

 

I don't know what you've read, but apparently that is not universally true at all. What's more, employers are required to compensate employees for time spent doing tests. The precedent for this is compensation to employees who take drug tests mandated by employers.

[Greg Mein]

The precedent for this is compensation to employees who take drug tests mandated by employers.

 

As a rule, employers often drug test prospective employees before hiring them but I'm certain you'd find that any ongoing random drug testing is typically mandated by government agencies. The reason is twofold; if an employee is executing his assigned duties reliably and to specification there is no incentive for the company to interrupt his/her productivity and secondly it is expensive to maintain a random test protocol of their own accord with no tax write off benefit afforded by a mandate.

[Jazzmammal]

Here's what I found about that:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/article/unvaccinated-covid-tests.html

 

Per an OSHA emergency rule employers DO NOT have to pay for tests for unvaxxed employees. This supersedes the ADA rules in that article you posted.

 

They are free to choose to do so however, I've seen very little about employers doing that. Why? Because they feel refusing the jab is bad and they're not going to encourage the reluctant to keep avoiding it. That's also the reason Biden changed his mind about federal workers. Initially they had the testing option but he removed it. Now it's get vaxxed or you're gone.

 

As to the obesity thing, I said it's not transmissable, what I what to hear from you guys is what's stopping the authorities from taking that step because they can now see they have the power to do it with the COVID mandate. If they can do one they can do the other as well if they think it's truly in our "best interests". I'm not predicting that because remember where the term "fat cat" came from. It's rich people and politicians so it's not likely, haha. Just making a point. What is more likely is the other contagions I mentioned plus all the scenarios you guys can think of too. These get jabbed or lose your job mandates is opening a pretty big door here especially with no testing option even available in many cases or if it is the employee pays for it. Given the costs, for most it's no choice at all. Encourgement and pursuasion is one thing but putting that much pressure on that many people will backfire big time. Just wait.

 

Bob

[Anderton]

what I what to hear from you guys is what's stopping the authorities from taking that step because they can now see they have the power to do it with the COVID mandate.

 

If in another 100 years something comes along of equal magnitude to this or the Spanish flu and disrupts the entire world, they probably will.

 

If they can do one they can do the other as well if they think it's truly in our "best interests."

 

The Constitution's first sentence states that one of the five primary goals of forming "a more perfect union" is to "promote the general welfare."

 

In my opinion, trying to prevent another 800,000+ people from dying, while lowering infection rates so that mutations don't keep extending Covid's survival and the economy doesn't have to be locked down to lower infection rates, qualifies 100% as promoting the general welfare.

 

I'm also of the opinion that Kraftwerk was one of the most important and musically influential groups of the late 20th century. You don't have to agree with that opinion, either

[KuruPrionz]

That's a no brainer for me but still, people have the right to choose not to get the jab and not lose their jobs over it.

 

Bob

 

So, employees have rights and employers do not? Please explain the logic there.

The employer will bear the liability in most cases.

 

I see you have no rational answer for this.

 

From what I've read, being given the choice to get tested sounds good until you realize they have to pay for these tests themselves, no insurance pays under that circumstance and that money adds up fast like $600 a month or something like that. Bob

 

I have friends who work at places where everyone is tested daily and nobody is charged. I have no friends who are charged for testing.

 

Kuru you just made my point. 100% of people did not voluntarily take those original vaccines, it was probably about the same as now, 30% refused them and they were never forced to take them until years later and even then the requirement was for children to enter school after they were proven safe (enough) and effecitve.

Bob

 

And, if NOBODY takes the vaccines, how will they ever prove that they are safe (enough) and effective? True then and true now.

 

Give government at all levels an inch to rule your life and they will take a mile.

Bob

 

Like issuing statewide mandates that employers cannot run their businesses as they see fit? Right...

Florida comes to mind, for one.

[Joe Muscara]

The big difference between standard immunizations we all got as children and COVID is the COVID vaccines are brand new with no history and it's that point that has many people worried including some health care proressionals. Polio and the other standard immunizations have been around now for 50-75 years with all that history that anybody can research. Where's that for COVID?

You keep making that point (and so do the anti-vaxxers, of whom you are not one), but there are some points to be made in response.

 

1. Generally, if there are adverse effects of vaccines, history shows that they show up in the first two months. There hasn't been any causal relationship shown to occur after that. clonk

2. The mRNA technology is relatively new, in humans, but it has been studied and tested for a long time. It was tested for rabies in humans in 2013. clonkity

3. There are other technologies besides mRNA being used. The Jaansen/Johnson & Johnson vaccine uses viral vector technology and that has been used since the 70s. If people are so worried about the mRNA tech being "unproven" (and I think the millions of doses given by now show there's no problem with it), then they should be lining up for the J&J shot. But they're not. That's because the truth is they believe the stories about vaccines and don't actually care about the science. Their arguments are simply to justify the story they are telling themselves. It's an unfortunate fact of human nature and they've been manipulated by [political shit that's out of scope for this or any other reasonable forum].

 

___

 

A few weeks ago I bought tickets for Diana Krall in February. The show, like some others around here, is somehow requiring proof of vaccination and masks. Yesterday I got a notification that she has postponed the tour due to COVID and no new date has been announced. Frankly, I'm relieved. I didn't go see Spider-Man 3 yesterday and it's now the third Marvel MCU movie I didn't see the day it came out. If we hadn't been having this surge, I would have considered it. But, FTS. I think I posted here that we went to some vaxxed and masked shows a few months ago and it was okay. I wasn't crazy about it but transmission levels weren't too bad then. Now, I want to wait again. Another band we love announced a show for mid-January and we're not going, even though it has the same requirements. But we'd normally get general admission tickets and there's No Way that we're standing shoulder-to-shoulder in a crowd, especially indoors, even if they were doing COVID testing at the door.

 

Gigs? I don't have any and I don't care to right now. There are too many variables with people who may or may not be fully vaccinated yet, wearing masks, indoors, rehearsals, etc. There are a few musician friends with whom I'd love to jam with for a minute but it'll wait.