Controlling your tone

[CEB]

I just had an interesting passing conversation on a Facebook group. Guy asked if preamp pedal were necessary and a lot of internet players threw out a bunch of different answers. I felt like joining in and my reply was to the effect of Very few things are truly necessary and most ' preamp pedals' are not preamp pedals and asked if he intends to inject it into the loop or a power amp in input on his guitar amp. But that is not of interest right now.

 

The thing I thought was fun was someone posted that preamp pedals are necessary if you are an acoustic guitar performer and I got to thinking and I responded 'I hear that a lot. And I use Preamp pedals for acoustic instruments, I'm a Fishman guy but when I was on the road in the 80s All they did was have me plug my Ovation into a DI that went to the desk. The front desk would handle EQ, Verb, etc.... I monitored through my wedge. But I worked for great outfit.' The guy said that is okay if you trust the sound guy or have the same sound every night..... I'm told none of that matters.

 

We did have the same crew but it doesn't really matter because in these situations nobody has real control over their tone. Once it hit FOH its out of your hands. If they wreck your sound its on them. You can't fight production. Hobbyist just don't understand the limitations of gear.

[Scott Fraser]

The correct answer is "no, a preamp pedal is not 'necessary'".

[CEB]

If it is .... you have the wrong amp.

[desertbluesman]

It is all a matter of personal taste. If you like pre amp pedals, they are necessary if you don't, they are not necessary.

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don"t even know what one does.

[Larryz]

I've never used a pre-amp pedal. I've seen acoustic players use a little gizmo attached to their mic stand that they plug into. Not sure it made a difference in their tone in anyway though. I think the most important thing you can rely on is your monitor. You should be able to hear what the audience hears with regard to your tone, amp, guitar, etc., settings. If it's not right, you should be able to talk to the sound FOH guy to see if your sound can be adjusted if it's not what you want to hear. Not enough of ??? volume, bass, treble, verb, mic, guitar, etc. I have watched Tommy Emmanuel have the final control on stage even though he travels with his sound guy. I have watched Chris Isaak go around the room with a mic while performing and listening to his band and himself to make sure everyone hears what he wants to hear...You have to rely on the soundmen/women to do a great job. And in most concerts I attend they do just that. I was not impressed with Dwight Yocum's acoustic guitar which sounded great alone but fuzzed up when the band started playing at times. It was still a great concert, but even the best in the biz can have a few issues at times IMHO...

[KuruPrionz]

The correct answer is "it depends".

 

Nothing is written in stone except if you need to play guitar then you should play guitar.

 

The definition of "preamp" varies wildly, some of these goodies are actually more like "channel strips" with EQ and other niceties.

Anything that can be adjusted can be adjusted to sound great, OK or terrible. Some things that cannot be adjusted may or may not sound good depending on the input and output sources.

 

In this context "need" is a not a "one size fits all" word. I use a Cloudlifter sometimes, I like how it works with my microphones. My EMG pickups have preamps built in, I like them but I don't know what they would sound like without them, I'm guessing they would have very low output.

 

My favorite acoustic guitar has a K&K Pro Mini pickup system and while they recommend a preamp, I've often run it straight in or through a simple passive DI (Whirlwind IMP 2) with good results. But then, the first stage of a mixer is generally a preamp.

 

My conclusion is inconclusive, rendering my opinion moot. I suspect this aspect will hold true for all concerned...

[RABid]

I have a couple for bass (Tech 21 Sans Amp), but not for guitar. On bass they are designed to give you the sound of a specific brand of amp.

[KuruPrionz]

I have a couple for bass (Tech 21 Sans Amp), but not for guitar. On bass they are designed to give you the sound of a specific brand of amp.

 

I have some Tech 21 stuff too, they make great devices.

Personally, I don't consider them to be preamps. There is a preamp in the circuit but also EQ, controlled distortion, 2 blendable signal paths etc.

 

In my mind, a preamp takes an existing signal, amplifies it and outputs it - it is likely there will be an impedance change or two along the way. There may be a high pass filter but that's pushing it a bit.

Beyond that is starting to fall under "channel strip" or "effects unit" in my book, sometimes both.

 

I'm not certain my definition is the same as the OP's.

 

In the end it doesn't matter, sometimes it works great and sometimes it doesn't. There could be poor setting choices or an inappropriate choice of where to place the preamp in the circuit.

I've tried all sorts of fun stuff and some of it worked great.

[Scott Fraser]

Personally, I don't consider them to be preamps. There is a preamp in the circuit but also EQ, controlled distortion, 2 blendable signal paths etc.

In my mind, a preamp takes an existing signal, amplifies it and outputs it - it is likely there will be an impedance change or two along the way. There may be a high pass filter but that's pushing it a bit.

Beyond that is starting to fall under "channel strip" or "effects unit" in my book, sometimes both.

 

I believe the term 'preamp', short for pre-amplifier, stems from the early days of hi-fi, so, early 1950s. A high end system in those days had separate components. My dad built such a system from Heathkit parts. A turntable & an AM/FM tuner fed into a preamp, which fed an amp, which fed a speaker. All built into a large, credenza-esque piece of furniture. The amp had no controls on it. The preamp had a selector for source, bass & treble, a loudness switch, & volume control, & an initial gain stage to bring the miniscule phono signal up to line level. It switched & balanced level between sources, applied equalization to the phono circuit, provided simple tone controls & controlled volume, spitting out a lightly processed or controlled line level signal to be amplified. Eventually the tuner, preamp & amp became consolidated into one unit called a receiver. Same with guitar stuff; the preamp is where the interface with the instrument happens, along with tone controls, maybe reverb/fx, & overall volume control, before the signal is sent to the amp, which is a dumb unit with no controls that just makes its input louder. We call the whole thing an amp, but the amp is just the louder-maker between the controller (preamp) & the speaker. Everybody's going to have a slightly different idea of what constitutes a preamp in a guitar rig. By definition, it's anything from an Arbiter Fuzz Face to a Marshall JMP-1.

[KuruPrionz]

Personally, I don't consider them to be preamps. There is a preamp in the circuit but also EQ, controlled distortion, 2 blendable signal paths etc.

In my mind, a preamp takes an existing signal, amplifies it and outputs it - it is likely there will be an impedance change or two along the way. There may be a high pass filter but that's pushing it a bit.

Beyond that is starting to fall under "channel strip" or "effects unit" in my book, sometimes both.

 

I believe the term 'preamp', short for pre-amplifier, stems from the early days of hi-fi, so, early 1950s. A high end system in those days had separate components. My dad built such a system from Heathkit parts. A turntable & an AM/FM tuner fed into a preamp, which fed an amp, which fed a speaker. All built into a large, credenza-esque piece of furniture. The amp had no controls on it. The preamp had a selector for source, bass & treble, a loudness switch, & volume control, & an initial gain stage to bring the miniscule phono signal up to line level. It switched & balanced level between sources, applied equalization to the phono circuit, provided simple tone controls & controlled volume, spitting out a lightly processed or controlled line level signal to be amplified. Eventually the tuner, preamp & amp became consolidated into one unit called a receiver. Same with guitar stuff; the preamp is where the interface with the instrument happens, along with tone controls, maybe reverb/fx, & overall volume control, before the signal is sent to the amp, which is a dumb unit with no controls that just makes its input louder. We call the whole thing an amp, but the amp is just the louder-maker between the controller (preamp) & the speaker. Everybody's going to have a slightly different idea of what constitutes a preamp in a guitar rig. By definition, it's anything from an Arbiter Fuzz Face to a Marshall JMP-1.

 

And that's fine, there as many ways to look at it as there are people.

I think the OP's point is that the final say as to how we may sound at a performance is entirely up to the person operating the mixing board and their perception of how it should sound.

In other words, preamps ultimately may be a factor but they are no more than that and your tone could be ruined or enhanced by the pair of ears that guide the knob turning hands of the sound person.

And, there isn't really anything you (or your preamp) can do to change that reality. On a case by case basis, yes, we may be able to choose a preferred sound person. I've played more than a few gigs where the sound crew is the sound crew and they are going to do what they are going to do and that is that. Could be a blessing or a curse...

[Scott Fraser]

And that's fine, there as many ways to look at it as there are people.

I think the OP's point is that the final say as to how we may sound at a performance is entirely up to the person operating the mixing board and their perception of how it should sound.

In other words, preamps ultimately may be a factor but they are no more than that and your tone could be ruined or enhanced by the pair of ears that guide the knob turning hands of the sound person.

And, there isn't really anything you (or your preamp) can do to change that reality. On a case by case basis, yes, we may be able to choose a preferred sound person. I've played more than a few gigs where the sound crew is the sound crew and they are going to do what they are going to do and that is that. Could be a blessing or a curse...

 

Ultimately, yes, the sound is in the hands of the sound person, for good or bad. Having been in that profession for the last 45 years or thereabouts, my assessment of my sound confreres is that it's a bell curve, like most things in life; i.e. the 10% at the top are very fine professionals with outstanding esthetic abilities. The bottom 10% are legally deaf & were quite possibly abused as children by musicians. The middle 80% are good enough; not so bad you lose the will to continue living during your gig, & not so good that you can trust them to make critical decisions based on a deep awareness of how music works. So, best to have your sound really well worked out so that the signal you hand off to the sound crew is so good it can withstand whatever is done to it. It's like playing a Steely Dan CD on a crap boombox; still sounds pretty good because it sounds so good to begin with. If you expect the sound crew to make a mediocre sound much improved, well, you're just indulging in magical thinking. I believe the original question centered around acoustic guitar sound. If you send the sound of a piezo pickup direct to FOH, you can expect it to sound like crap through the PA because those pickups sound like crap. (Mostly.) If you have a really well worked out acoustic system, that's going to come through the PA pretty well.

[p90jr]

An amp has a preamp... some of them are very simple and limited.

 

I love my Supro Supremes... they sound great when I just plug straight into them. But I like them to sound even better... the amp constrols consist of a volume for the first channel, a volume for the first + second channels combined (it bridges the channels and becomes a master volume) and a tone control. That's it. That's very cool... but I add a Vertex Steel String pedal and focus the bottom end a bit, or a Chase Tone Secret pedal to do the same, or a Klon KTR or a Komet Mirasol... it really takes the tone to a different level, and it makes me even happier. The Treble Booster was invented at the request of guitarist in the 60s who found their Vox and Marshall amps too wolly and woofy when they cranked them to overdrive... it's essentially a preamp pedal. An overdrive of distortion pedal is in effect a preamp.

[KuruPrionz]

And that's fine, there as many ways to look at it as there are people.

I think the OP's point is that the final say as to how we may sound at a performance is entirely up to the person operating the mixing board and their perception of how it should sound.

In other words, preamps ultimately may be a factor but they are no more than that and your tone could be ruined or enhanced by the pair of ears that guide the knob turning hands of the sound person.

And, there isn't really anything you (or your preamp) can do to change that reality. On a case by case basis, yes, we may be able to choose a preferred sound person. I've played more than a few gigs where the sound crew is the sound crew and they are going to do what they are going to do and that is that. Could be a blessing or a curse...

 

Ultimately, yes, the sound is in the hands of the sound person, for good or bad. Having been in that profession for the last 45 years or thereabouts, my assessment of my sound confreres is that it's a bell curve, like most things in life; i.e. the 10% at the top are very fine professionals with outstanding esthetic abilities. The bottom 10% are legally deaf & were quite possibly abused as children by musicians. The middle 80% are good enough; not so bad you lose the will to continue living during your gig, & not so good that you can trust them to make critical decisions based on a deep awareness of how music works. So, best to have your sound really well worked out so that the signal you hand off to the sound crew is so good it can withstand whatever is done to it. It's like playing a Steely Dan CD on a crap boombox; still sounds pretty good because it sounds so good to begin with. If you expect the sound crew to make a mediocre sound much improved, well, you're just indulging in magical thinking. I believe the original question centered around acoustic guitar sound. If you send the sound of a piezo pickup direct to FOH, you can expect it to sound like crap through the PA because those pickups sound like crap. (Mostly.) If you have a really well worked out acoustic system, that's going to come through the PA pretty well.

 

It is mostly the under saddle piezo pickups that have that thin, yet harsh transient tone we all cringe at hearing. The B-Band is quite a bit better for an under saddle, it's not a piezo. I use the K&K Mini, which is 3 piezo sensors that mount on the bottom of the sound board and that seems to cure the "quack" nicely. It also allows the strings to be well balanced, typically the B string will be too loud on an under saddle but the K&K moves that sensor under the first string and it all balances beautifully.

 

I've been at this about as long as you have, I'll be 66 in a week, played my first gig at 15 but really got going when I was around 20. I do provide a quality tone to the sound engineer. It's up to them to use it or hose it.