Older firewire audio usable? Or should I upgrade?

[eric]

Hi folks,

 

I am admittedly a novice with all things computer and synth related. I've been a hardware kind of player (exclusively live gigs) for 35+ years so I never invested a ton of time in using laptops and software. I am now finding some use cases where it would be handy, at a minimum, to be able to do some light laptop recording and so this led me to dig around for what I have available.

 

Back at least 10 years ago, I bought a MOTU UltraLite mixer which has firewire interface. I used this MOTU mostly as a live keyboard mixer in my rack for years. I have a recollection of using it with my old school 2008 MacBook Pro that is still around, though barely limping along. I have a newer less than one year old MacBook Pro that is all USB-C ports.

 

I did a little research and it seems like I *might* be able to get some adaptors to connect the old MOTU interface and jump from firewire to USB-C, possibly. However, it's not 100% certain that it will work properly and the cost of adaptors might start to get into the space of maybe it's time to get a new interface.

 

I've seen some reasonably priced USB-C audio interfaces. For those of you with more knowledge on this topic, should I try the adaptor route or move to a new audio interface? What do you recommend for casual use?

 

Thanks so much!

Eric

[Jonathan Hughes]

I used to have a MOTU interface that I connected to my computer's thunderbolt port with a firewire to thunderbolt adaptor, and it worked fine. It's all very confusing now because thunderbolt now has the same connection as USB-C (I think!), so the question is whether you need a firewire to USB-C adaptor or a Firewire to thunderbolt adaptor. Personally, I would check with MOTU to see what's compatible with what. But if things worked like did for me, you shouldn't;t have any problems.

 

That said, the adaptors do get pricey, and a newer audio interface might be easier to deal with (especially if it's bus powered).

[ProfD]

Back at least 10 years ago, I bought a MOTU UltraLite mixer which has firewire interface.

 

I've seen some reasonably priced USB-C audio interfaces.

Brotha E, it's time to cop a new audio interface. They are reasaonably priced and up-to-date.

 

Firewire was the sh8t several years ago. One of those technologies that came and went pretty fast.

 

As a hardware guy moving into the future (software), I'm getting ready to cop a Focusrite Scarlett to use with my new laptop.

 

It's time for us to play it forward (technology and software). Let's go bro.

[johnchop]

I'd be concerned about driver support falling away with newer MacOS versions. Another vote for USB-C option.

[analogika]

It's all very confusing now because thunderbolt now has the same connection as USB-C (I think!), so the question is whether you need a firewire to USB-C adaptor or a Firewire to thunderbolt adaptor.

Actually, that much is not confusing at all, since Firewire-to-USB-C adapters do not exist.

 

The only way to go from Firewire to Thunderbolt is through Apple's own Firewire 800 - Thunderbolt 2 adapter or a Thunderbolt Dock that has Firewire, like the Belkin one I have here.

 

Those will then plug into the Thunderbolt 2 - Thunderbolt 3 adapter, which uses the USB-C plug.

 

Since nobody has made a Thunderbolt 3 dock with a Firewire port, that is the only option.

 

However, at this point, since the TB3 â> TB2 and TB2 â> FW adapters will set you back something like 70$, even if Motu still supplies compatible drivers for Catalina and newer, the writing has been on the wall for ten years, and many Firewire interfaces (like the Focusrites) have finally hit the wall of obsoletion with the complete driver rewrite necessary for Big Sur.

 

Those $70 are probably better put towards investing in a newer audio interface.

[PianoMan51]

I have an Ultralite FireWire. I"ve been using it via a FireWire to Thunderbolt adapter for years. You can look for an adapter to USB-C. The issue I have is that CueMix, the software that runs my hardware, only works up to Mojave. The hardware is a brick without it. I found out the hard way. And spent a full day moving back from Catalina.

 

My plan is to use my 2013 MacBook Pro running Mojave and using the Ultralite as my working setup until sometime in the future when I"ll move over to the new Mac and buy a new audio interface. PS, I"ve also got a bricked original Duet if anyone wants a nice paperweight.

[zxcvbnm098]

I just put my old Duet in the "e Waste" pile in my garage. It was great, but time to move on, alas.

[Dr Mike Metlay]

Adding my voice here. Get new hardware. We had one of those original UltraLites at the magazine and stopped using it years ago because support was getting wonky; I have an UltraLite AVB that is future-proof on my computers running Mojave, but eventually I'll get a USB-C Mac and when I do, I'll get a current interface.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I"d keep it around to use with old gear for tracking or whatnot, but it might be worth saving up for a new interface with the impending architecture changes with Mac products etc.

 

I just put my old Duet in the "e Waste" pile in my garage. It was great, but time to move on, alas.

Have you read this thread on GS? The most recent two posts indicate that the Duet FireWire works on both Big Sur and the new M1 ARM chip. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/1132995-apogee-duet-firewire-obsolete-5.html

[Joe Muscara]

I've used an old Duet FW with my 2017 iMac that has TB3 [uSB-C] ports running Catalina (or at least Mojave). I have old FW drives I still use with this iMac, with a chain of three adapters that's downright silly. FW 400 > FW 800 > TB [something, looks like Mini DisplayPort] > TB3/USB-C.

 

Eric, realize that if your MacBook Pro is less than a year old, those "USB-C" ports might also be Thunderbolt. I have the Universal Audio Arrow (now known as Apollo Solo) and I love it. You don't have to limit yourself to USB-C options.

[BbAltered]

I use a FW equiped digital mixer (Mackie 1604) with my computer and keyboards. I did have to buy a FW adapter card for the computer (cost ~ $40). The computer runs Win 7. This setup will give 18 digital audio channels into the computer, and two digital audio channels back to the mixer simultaneously. The setup is bullet-proof - once up and running, I've never had a problem with it.

 

The Mackie mixer is great, but when I upgrade, I will get something else. The FW is now slower than every other protocol, and is not being supported by computer manufacturers.

[ElmerJFudd]

If you"re on PC you can check if MOTU has Windows 10 drivers for the interface.

If they do, while building your PC pick up a used FireWire controller card that people say works well with audio interfaces.

 

If you"re on a Mac - similarly check if MOTU is supporting the interface on your version of OSX and get a FW to Thunderbolt or USB-C adapter.

 

If your I/O needs are small there are many USB interfaces on the market of very good quality that are sub $300 now to pick from with good mic preamps, instrument and hi/z inputs. balanced and or unbalanced outs, even 5 pin midi.

[eric]

I've used an old Duet FW with my 2017 iMac that has TB3 [uSB-C] ports running Catalina (or at least Mojave). I have old FW drives I still use with this iMac, with a chain of three adapters that's downright silly. FW 400 > FW 800 > TB [something, looks like Mini DisplayPort] > TB3/USB-C.

 

Eric, realize that if your MacBook Pro is less than a year old, those "USB-C" ports might also be Thunderbolt. I have the Universal Audio Arrow (now known as Apollo Solo) and I love it. You don't have to limit yourself to USB-C options.

 

You're right, Joe! I was multitasking when writing this thread and somehow had the wrong names in my head. They are all Thunderbolt ports...and I have a little dongle that gives me USB-C and HDMI. I reckon I need to be looking at some new audio interface that connects to Thunderbolt if I want to keep the adaptors to a minimum.

 

Thanks for all the responses! Very helpful and seems mostly aligned that I'd be better off looking for a new item vs. trying to daisy chain adaptors to a 10+ year old Firewire interface that may not even be seen by the new Mac.

[analogika]

I reckon I need to be looking at some new audio interface that connects to Thunderbolt if I want to keep the adaptors to a minimum.

Any USB interface will work fine with a simple USB-C to USB-B cable.

[Reezekeys]

Just for another perspective (since we know how much everyone likes to spend other forumites' money!)

 

The current Ultralite (Mk4) is a $600 piece. I'm not sure how comparable the ins & outs or other features are to your original model, but replacing it with a like interface has got to cost more than two dongle adapters.

 

I looked at MOTU's website in their legacy downloads section. The last driver that claims to be compatible with the original Ultralite is x86_64, as is CueMix FX, so I'm guessing it will run on your current MacBook Pro (you must have Catalina, right?). You could always download & try installing it to see if any errors pop up.

 

Just today I got a Digi 002 Rack working on my 2013 MacBook Pro (running Mojave) with 4-year-old 003 drivers ("Digi 002 Console and Rack not supported [untested]"), labeled as compatible with MacOS systems up to 10.12 (Mojave is 10.14). I already had the Thunderbolt 2 --> Firewire dongle adapter so all I needed was a $10 firewire 800-to-400 cable. It works great! The 002 Rack was a gift from a friend who moved away from the area, wasn't using it, didn't want to bring it to his new place, and didn't have the time to deal with selling it. I think I made out pretty good. Your situation is a little different as those two dongles will add up to $60 - $70 and look pretty bad hanging off the laptop â but that's still less, maybe way less, than any new interface with the i/o of the Ultralite.

[KuruPrionz]

First, paying $70 for a Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter seems very steep to me. I got an Apple Firewire to Thunderbolt 2 adapter on eBay for well under $20 delivered. It's hardware with zero moving parts, if it has not been abused there is nothing wrong with a used one.

 

Second, I had a couple of MOTU Firewire interfaces when my 2008 Mac Pro up and died. I was getting left behind by then in any case and it had served me well. After I'd run my MOTU 896 MK3 Hybrid on my 2104 MacBook Pro using High Sierra and dealing with Cue Mix FX, I didn't really love it. It's one think to make a neutral sounding preamp, it's another to make a boring sounding one.

 

I bought a Presonus Quantum with Thunderbolt 2 and the preamps sound much better. They are still relatively neutral but the clarity is better and the difference between different microphones is more pronounced. Plus, the Presonus Universal Control software has been a joy to use to control the Quantum, no drips, runs or errors.

 

I'd do it again, I had to find a way to get it done the first time - not exactly rolling in money. I'd find a way to do it again.

The difference in latency alone is pretty compelling, I can track on a session with 8 live tracks already recorded and the latency is virtually inaudible. It's fast, really fast. Firewire was really fast 10 years ago, not anymore. That level of fast is slow.

 

I still use the Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter because I have a couple of Firewire backup drives. One day not too far off I will get a faster HDD or two - probably USB since they are backups and transfer the contents so the Firewire drives can go to their death knowing they did their humble task.

 

Totally up to you but I vote new interface!!!!

[analogika]

First, paying $70 for a Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter seems very steep to me. I got an Apple Firewire to Thunderbolt 2 adapter on eBay for well under $20 delivered. It's hardware with zero moving parts, if it has not been abused there is nothing wrong with a used one.

Yeah, I was going by new prices.

 

TB3 to TB2 adapters seem to be going for between $30 and $40 on eBay, so you're around $50 to $60.

 

New price for both is actually $80, so I was off there ($49 for the TB3 â> TB2 Adapter, and $29 for the TB2 â> FW800 adapter).

[Reezekeys]

First, paying $70 for a Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter seems very steep to me. I got an Apple Firewire to Thunderbolt 2 adapter on eBay for well under $20 delivered. It's hardware with zero moving parts, if it has not been abused there is nothing wrong with a used one.

 

It's not a single adapter, it's two that's needed. And I was quoting Apple list prices, but if they're available used or refurb for less, that may be an even better reason to give the old Ultralite a shot - but it looks like everybody here is hot to recommend a new interface. I might be a minority of one but I like to squeeze as much life out of my gear as I can. I have to, since making music is my vocation (and right now it's not much of one!). I can weigh the pros & cons in these situations but my wallet usually makes the final decision!

 

Eric, best of luck with your new interface!

[KuruPrionz]

Maybe I missed something but I am still wondering how many input channels the OP wants/needs?

 

I will note that optimal Firewire 800 systems will transfer data at up to 800 mbps. Thunderbolt 3 can transfer data at up to 10 gbps.

 

That is not a small difference. I suffered through the latency funs, now I don't have to do that and I am only using Thunderbolt 2 but all direct with no adapters. It would be hard to put a price on that luxury, I love it. Trying to ignore that everything I played or sang was delayed was truly a distraction from me giving my best performance.

 

I was well booked before Covid too, had to find another way to keep the income flowing. Where recording is concerned I put a high value on being happy with my workflow and results.

 

If playing my guitar live had the latency I used to deal with using Firewire, I probably would have quit doing it to be completely honest about it. It's not a money thing so much as a connection with my art.

[zxcvbnm098]

I"d keep it around to use with old gear for tracking or whatnot, but it might be worth saving up for a new interface with the impending architecture changes with Mac products etc.

 

I just put my old Duet in the "e Waste" pile in my garage. It was great, but time to move on, alas.

Have you read this thread on GS? The most recent two posts indicate that the Duet FireWire works on both Big Sur and the new M1 ARM chip. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/1132995-apogee-duet-firewire-obsolete-5.html

 

I did not! I'm bringing it back in the house now! Thanks for info Max!

[Reezekeys]

Maybe I missed something but I am still wondering how many input channels the OP wants/needs?

 

I will note that optimal Firewire 800 systems will transfer data at up to 800 mbps. Thunderbolt 3 can transfer data at up to 10 gbps.

 

That is not a small difference. I suffered through the latency funs, now I don't have to do that and I am only using Thunderbolt 2 but all direct with no adapters.

 

It's a difference that makes no difference. The specs you mention have little meaning or effect when it comes to audio interfaces and typical use cases. The current Ultralite (Mk4) claims round-trip latency "as low as 1.83ms" ... and it's a USB2 interface. The specs say it moves 24 channels of audio at a 192Khz sample rate. At 44.1Khz, it does 64 in/out channels. I"m guessing USB2 is plenty fast enough for most of us, just in terms of its theoretical transfer speed. These specs also have almost zero connection with perceived latency; that's more a function of the interface's driver software (if it's not class-compliant) and your buffer setting. Having an interface that transfers data at "up to 10gps" versus 800mbps in and of itself won't do anything to improve your latency figures. I'm pretty sure the latency you experienced with your guitar had zero to do with having a firewire connection versus any other kind.

 

As far as what Eric wants or needs in terms of i/o channels - he hasn't told us unless I missed it somewhere in this thread. His original Ultralite has a total of ten input channels and 14 output channels. There are eight analog inputs, including two XLRs. The headphones and main output busses are separate which is nice (my MicroBook IIc has this feature, which allowed me to dial up a separate mix for my in-ears).

[KuruPrionz]

It's a difference that makes no difference. The specs you mention have little meaning or effect when it comes to audio interfaces and typical use cases. MOTU's 1248 interface moves 24 channels of audio over USB2 - at a 192Khz sample rate. At 44.1Khz, USB2 does 64 in/out channels on that interface. USB2 is plenty fast enough for most of us. These specs also have almost zero connection with perceived latency; that's more a function of the interface's driver software (if it's not class-compliant) and your buffer setting. Having an interface that transfers data at "up to 10gps" versus 800mbps in and of itself won't do anything to improve your latency figures. I'm pretty sure the latency you experienced with your guitar had zero to do with having a firewire connection versus any other kind.

 

As far as what Eric wants or needs in terms of i/o channels - he hasn't told us unless I missed it somewhere in this thread. His original Ultralite has a total of ten input channels and 14 output channels. Actual analog inputs are eight, which include two XLRs. The headphones and main output busses are separate which is nice (my MicroBook IIc has this feature, which allowed me to dial up a separate mix for my in-ears). BTW the current Ultralite (Mk4) has 18 input and 22 output channels (this includes both digital and analog i/o) at 44.1/48Khz, claims round-trip latency "as low as 1.83ms" ... and it's a USB2 interface!

 

First, just for clarity I said "IF playing my guitar live had the latency I used to deal with using Firewire, I probably would have quit doing it to be completely honest about it."

I did not say my guitar had latency, it doesn't have any that I can hear. My statement is based on my own personal experience using actual products.

 

I was using a 2008 Mac Pro running High Sierra with 6 gigs of RAM and bit by bit it was either dying or getting left behind (both). I had a MOTU Audio Express and the latest Cue Mix software. Except for the speaker output being incredibly hot (turned the volume on my monitors WAY down!!!!) it was pretty OK. It was a hybrid, but the lowest latency settings I could rely on to record without being glitchy was around 12ms - either Firewire or USB with no adapters. I can hear that latency, it's not musical, it is an obstacle to be overcome. If I recorded several tracks I had to start "freezing" them to maintain that latency. I'm OK with that, it works.

 

I got a 2014 MacBookPro with 16 gigs of RAM and opportunity offered a MOTU 896 MKIII Hybrid at a good price. Now I had Firewire 800 and built in effects (which I never used). I installed Cue MIx FX latest version. Still on High Sierra and now an SSD (should be faster). Still good around 12ms, go lower and it got glitchy. I was using an Apple Firewire 800 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter on the interface/ computer connection at that point. Fine, it worked. Still annoying latency but I am used to it.

 

Then I had a windfall, some money came my way. I got a Presonus Quantum and a new Thunderbolt 2 cable. I installed Presonus Universal Control software so I could control the interface from the computer. Now, 4.5ms was no problem and latency was virtually inaudible. I added an external HDD, TB2 and plugged into the extra socket in the Quantum. Still good at 4.5ms, I can track a 12-15 tracks and no need to freeze anything.

 

I've always set my DAW to about 28ms for mixing, either interface setup could handle all the plugins, extra tracks etc. and it works fine since it is all in sync. I'm not one to push my parameters to the edge, I can record at lower settings now but it's fine like it is and I have no problems anymore.

 

Plus, as I mentioned above - the mic pres (8 of them) were quieter, had more gain, more clarity (for want of a better word) and I like them much better than the mic pre on the MOTU, which I never found "inspiring". Going line in with keyboards is probably different but I am recording vocals and acoustic instruments so I need decent mic preamps. Universal Control has not failed to respond like Cue MIx FX did.

 

I've updated the system to Catalina with zero problems. I sold the MOTU stuff, deleted the software and I do not miss any of it at all. Lower latency, fewer software glitches and better sound. Such a waste of money!!!!

 

As to using measurements, claims, scientific data etc. It's all well and good. You might very well be able to prove me wrong but it really doesn't change anything I've experienced so far.

I'm sorry I distracted the thread by bringing up data, I should have just posted what I posted above. It doesn't prove anything - anecdotal evidence - but it is an explanation of why I am where I am and am happy to be there! Cheers, Kuru

[eric]

Thanks for the ongoing discussion here! What I'm looking to do would probably be satisfied by a simple L/R stereo interface as I have in my music space an Ashly LX308-B into which the vast majority of my keyboards are running as my mixer (aside from Hammond and Leslie). I also still have that UltraLite that could be a submixer for things as needed. I'm envisioning a use case where I take outputs from my Ashly into the new Thunderbolt/USB interface feeding my MacBook Pro. I have a few musician friends and local bands that have been nagging me about, "hey, we have this recording that really needs keyboards, can you do it if we send you the file" etc.

 

I started looking at the Focusrite Scarlett and am thinking that maybe something like the Scarlett 2i2 could do the trick for a reasonable price point.

 

Thanks,

Eric

[KuruPrionz]

Thanks for the ongoing discussion here! What I'm looking to do would probably be satisfied by a simple L/R stereo interface as I have in my music space an Ashly LX308-B into which the vast majority of my keyboards are running as my mixer (aside from Hammond and Leslie). I also still have that UltraLite that could be a submixer for things as needed. I'm envisioning a use case where I take outputs from my Ashly into the new Thunderbolt/USB interface feeding my MacBook Pro. I have a few musician friends and local bands that have been nagging me about, "hey, we have this recording that really needs keyboards, can you do it if we send you the file" etc.

 

I started looking at the Focusrite Scarlett and am thinking that maybe something like the Scarlett 2i2 could do the trick for a reasonable price point.

 

Thanks,

Eric

 

 

That sounds like a winner to me!!! I doubt you will regret owning it. You can also use it to dub vocals or mic acoustic instruments, Focusrite makes a nice sounding mic preamp.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

Firewire was the sh8t several years ago. One of those technologies that came and went pretty fast.

A friend and colleague of mine wired up his house for FireWire back in the mid-aughts, networked ports in the walls and such. Poor soul!

[ProfD]

I started looking at the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2

Brotha eric, I'm going with the Scarlett 4i4 because it has MIDI DIN on the back.

 

I see that you're running the Ashly mixer through the interface but you never know when there might be a need to record audo and MIDI data. Just a thought.

[Reezekeys]

Thanks for the ongoing discussion here! What I'm looking to do would probably be satisfied by a simple L/R stereo interface

 

Obviously it's dumb to spend ~$70 on two dongles to keep the Ultralite working with your newer computer when a simple 2x2 interface can be had for that price or a bit more.

 

I still say that as far as the original thread topic of whether or not "older firewire audio" is usable today... the answer is yes, with caveats. For MOTU pieces at least, their FireWire kext is included in the most recent audio driver installer (I'm curious if that will continue with the eventual Apple Silicon version). It's a matter of how to interface the hardware and at what cost. That UltraLite is quite a powerful little animal - hell, my Microbook IIc is extremely versatile when paired with the CueMix software (especially since I hacked a way to make the mixer midi-controllable).

[cp-the-nerd]

My brother is married to an old firewire recording interface. He doesn't want to upgrade to USB because it'll be roughly a grand for an equivalent new one, but he has intermittent recording and computer issues that he constantly b*tches and moans about and I'm pretty sure that's the source. I had to add a firewire card to his current PC so he could even connect it.

 

My vote is upgrade to usb.

[Al Quinn]

I have a MOTU 828 mkII Firewire audio interface that I bought around 15 years ago. Five years ago, I bought a Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter for $40 from Amazon and the MOTU works fine with my 2015 MacBook Pro running Catalina. I also use the Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter to use an Apogee Firewire Duet audio interface that I bought 10 years ago; it works fine too. So, so far so good but who knows for how long...

[Reezekeys]

My brother is married to an old firewire recording interface. He doesn't want to upgrade to USB because it'll be roughly a grand for an equivalent new one, but he has intermittent recording and computer issues that he constantly b*tches and moans about and I'm pretty sure that's the source. I had to add a firewire card to his current PC so he could even connect it.

 

My vote is upgrade to usb.

 

Using an older Mac with the Apple Thunderbolt 2-to-Firewire adapter is nothing like a PC with a Firewire card. Apple invented Firewire, the adapter is made by Apple, and Apple writes the OS code that addresses it. The PC world is just a wee bit different when it comes to those kinds of things! A monopoly can be an advantage sometimes. For all the years I've used my adapter I have never had any issues with it although it was not ideal on gigs way back when I was using a FW400 external 2.5" drive to stream my samples â it hung off my laptop sitting in its SKB case, the TB connection wasn't very secure, and our tech once accidentally pulled it out of its jack by brushing against it while on stage doing a line check before our set. I went to a USB3 external soon after that, and now all my samples are on my internal drive.

 

For those older multi-port interfaces that would cost ~$1K to replace with a newer version, if a $40 adapter dongle can give it a few more years and you understand and accept the cons, I think FW is still a viable option â just maybe not on a PC!