Best stage piano for Controlling software on stage..

[KorgyPorky]

 

Whats the best stagepiano for controlling software instruments and synths on stage?

Or even better, for adding vsts,to its own sounds, combining them both..

 

Its hard to choose...

 

I am left with this small list...

- Nord Stage 3

- Roland RD2000

- Kurzweil Forte

 

Seems the new Yamaha CP88 disqualifies, as i can not see much external controlls

Same goes for the grandstage from Korg.

 

All 3 have strengths and weaknesses..

So which one would you favor?

[fjzingo]

I would add Modx8 and montage to that list. Also if you want to control computers onstage, do you really need a new digital keyboard. Anyhow, most likely you would be happy with any of youre suggestions.

 

With the fantastic built insounds of todays keyboards, do you really need to add a computer. And if you add a computer, dont you just need a controller....

[Ian Benhamou]

If the Kurzweil Forte still has the same Midi control options as the PC3 series (which I'm almost sure it does) it's hard to beat. There's just a level of control and possibilities that you can't really get anywhere else.

 

But it depends on your needs. If all you need is a few zones with key range, transposition and program changes than all of your choices allow that.

 

However, if you need deeper control than the Forte will be hard to beat. Things like assigning pedals to step up and down through keyboard changes, having sliders control drawbars for organ in the proper direction, assigning switches to mute/unmute entire groups of zones, etc. there's virtually nothing you can't do. And none of the assignments are global so they could be on a song to song basis which allows for really complex and precise control.

[ElmerJFudd]

Any Yamaha Motif__ ,or S90__, or S70XS.

Yamaha CP4 - is a decent controller as well compared to most stage pianos.

Casio PX-5S is a decent controller/stage piano.

As is the Kawai MP7 and 11.

 

Most would connect to your laptop by USB. Some will have midi communication only, others will have audio also streaming back to the keyboard removing the need for an audio interface (possibly with the connectors you need as well).

 

Tell us whats important to you.

What VSTs do you want to control?

Will you be using a Mac/PC with a host like MainStage or Cantabile?

Do you already own a good quality audio midi interface with the connectors you need?

Is action important?

Weight?

Do you need expression pedal inputs?

Do you need faders and knobs? How many?

Pitch and mod wheel?

 

 

 

[KorgyPorky]

Any Yamaha Motif__ ,or S90__, or S70XS.

Yamaha CP4 - is a decent controller as well compared to most stage pianos.

Casio PX-5S is a decent controller/stage piano.

As is the Kawai MP7 and 11.

 

Most would connect to your laptop by USB. Some will have midi communication only, others will have audio also streaming back to the keyboard removing the need for an audio interface (possibly with the connectors you need as well).

 

Tell us whats important to you.

What VSTs do you want to control?

Will you be using a Mac/PC with a host like MainStage or Cantabile?

Do you already own a good quality audio midi interface with the connectors you need?

Is action important?

Weight?

Do you need expression pedal inputs?

Do you need faders and knobs? How many?

Pitch and mod wheel?

 

 

 

I will be using mainstage or the new Camelot pro..

With a small collection of VSTs

-NI komplete

-Omnisphere/keyscape

-Arturia V-collection

-pianoteq

-Neo/soulkeys

 

Action is important, but it doesnt have to be a semi realistic piano action

Also aftertouch would be a good thing..

Having 2 expression pedals and a triple pedal would be perfect..

I would love some assignable knobs and sliders, programmable/song/performance

Also modulation and pitch controlls are a must

 

Weight is not a big issue, but i guess montage 8 and kawai MP11 are a bit to heavy for my lifting powers.. but weights around 20kg are acceptable..

 

 

[KorgyPorky]

If the Kurzweil Forte still has the same Midi control options as the PC3 series (which I'm almost sure it does) it's hard to beat. There's just a level of control and possibilities that you can't really get anywhere else.

 

But it depends on your needs. If all you need is a few zones with key range, transposition and program changes than all of your choices allow that.

 

However, if you need deeper control than the Forte will be hard to beat. Things like assigning pedals to step up and down through keyboard changes, having sliders control drawbars for organ in the proper direction, assigning switches to mute/unmute entire groups of zones, etc. there's virtually nothing you can't do. And none of the assignments are global so they could be on a song to song basis which allows for really complex and precise control.

 

This is exactly what intrigues me in the Forte..

The ability to dive deep..

An other advantage of the Forte seems to be the editor, which also is a vst plugin. This should make setting up advanced things a lot easier..

 

But one of my worries is that it will not be easy to quickly set up 3 layes and just play..

[Ian Benhamou]

But one of my worries is that it will not be easy to quickly set up 3 layes and just play..

 

Not true. Call up a new zone and set your basic parameters. All the controllers by default are unassigned so just program the stuff you need. If you know you'll always want certain zones controlling a specific plug-in or module, etc. Just setup a template with all the parameters pre-programmed and use that as your starting point.

 

I have a few templates pre-programmed depending on the rig Im using.

[KorgyPorky]

But one of my worries is that it will not be easy to quickly set up 3 layes and just play..

 

Not true. Call up a new zone and set your basic parameters. All the controllers by default are unassigned so just program the stuff you need. If you know you'll always want certain zones controlling a specific plug-in or module, etc. Just setup a template with all the parameters pre-programmed and use that as your starting point.

 

I have a few templates pre-programmed depending on the rig Im using.

 

That could work..

 

The whole idea after selling the Kronos was however to have a stagepiano for easy direct access and use the software for the extra depth when needed.. with just a few simple programmable knobs...

[AnotherScott]

I will be using mainstage or the new Camelot pro..

You should probably also check out the free demo of GigPerformer.

 

Action is important, but it doesnt have to be a semi realistic piano action

Also aftertouch would be a good thing..

Having 2 expression pedals and a triple pedal would be perfect..

I would love some assignable knobs and sliders, programmable/song/performance

Also modulation and pitch controlls are a must

...but weights around 20kg are acceptable..

I think best choice is probably Physis K4.

 

As for other options, I wouldn't worry so much about the pedals or assignable knobs/sliders if you find something that meets your needs in all other ways, because those things can be added after the fact. Pedals easily with the adapters from audiofront, knobs/sliders a little less so since they depend on having available free panel space, though not necessarily a lot (for Korg NanoKontrol or similar, or a bit more for a Studiologic Mixface). Their per-program functions can be programmed on the receiving end if need be.

 

But something else to think about might be what kind of mechanism you'd like for real-time patch selection.

[Iconoclast]

Any Yamaha Motif__ ,or S90__, or S70XS.

Yamaha CP4 - is a decent controller as well compared to most stage pianos.

Casio PX-5S is a decent controller/stage piano.

As is the Kawai MP7 and 11.

 

Most would connect to your laptop by USB. Some will have midi communication only, others will have audio also streaming back to the keyboard removing the need for an audio interface (possibly with the connectors you need as well).

 

Tell us whats important to you.

What VSTs do you want to control?

Will you be using a Mac/PC with a host like MainStage or Cantabile?

Do you already own a good quality audio midi interface with the connectors you need?

Is action important?

Weight?

Do you need expression pedal inputs?

Do you need faders and knobs? How many?

Pitch and mod wheel?

 

 

 

I will be using mainstage or the new Camelot pro..

With a small collection of VSTs

-NI komplete

-Omnisphere/keyscape

-Arturia V-collection

-pianoteq

-Neo/soulkeys

 

Action is important, but it doesnt have to be a semi realistic piano action

Also aftertouch would be a good thing..

Having 2 expression pedals and a triple pedal would be perfect..

I would love some assignable knobs and sliders, programmable/song/performance

Also modulation and pitch controlls are a must

 

Weight is not a big issue, but i guess montage 8 and kawai MP11 are a bit to heavy for my lifting powers.. but weights around 20kg are acceptable..

Search for keyscape and mainstage in this message board. I've had a really tough time getting keyscape to work smoothly inside mainstage. There's a very long thread about my tribulations getting it to work without pops and glitches. Sounds beautiful when it works...but....

 

I use Arturia a lot but have really gravitated to only specific few of their programs. The Solina program get's a lot of use in my setup as does the mini-v.

 

Honestly, lately I've been using the mainstage basics a whole lot lately. You can do a whole lot with Retrosynth and it's just sooo easy to program. If you need more modulation options, ES2 is pretty powerful and not that much more difficult to understand.

 

Additionally the vintage B3 in mainstage is one of the best soft-synth organs out there. Really nice sounding.

[Iconoclast]

If the Kurzweil Forte still has the same Midi control options as the PC3 series (which I'm almost sure it does) it's hard to beat. There's just a level of control and possibilities that you can't really get anywhere else.

 

But it depends on your needs. If all you need is a few zones with key range, transposition and program changes than all of your choices allow that.

 

However, if you need deeper control than the Forte will be hard to beat. Things like assigning pedals to step up and down through keyboard changes, having sliders control drawbars for organ in the proper direction, assigning switches to mute/unmute entire groups of zones, etc. there's virtually nothing you can't do. And none of the assignments are global so they could be on a song to song basis which allows for really complex and precise control.

 

This is exactly what intrigues me in the Forte..

The ability to dive deep..

An other advantage of the Forte seems to be the editor, which also is a vst plugin. This should make setting up advanced things a lot easier..

 

But one of my worries is that it will not be easy to quickly set up 3 layes and just play..

If you're just picking out programs from the Kurz and building splits/layers (called multi's in Kurzweil language) it's pretty easy to do just from the front of the instrument. Using the editor will just slow you down and probably frustrate you. I was initially drawn to the editor but in the long run I've found it to be a time-suck-inspiration-killer.

 

The Forte is well suited to be a controller for mainstage, albeit a very expensive controller! It is literally overfeatured for the role!

 

I actually use the Forte as an instrument inside Mainstage (I have programs that the Forte is assigned as an audio source for a channel strip). I really like this because I can easily set up and view all my patch changes in order in one place...Mainstage. And Mainstage can do the channel switching.

 

Forte has a bunch of assignable sliders and controls that I typically use more inside mainstage than in the Kurzweil multi's.

 

Mainstage's organ sounds better than the KB3 and it's way easier to get more than one instance of organ in a multi in mainstage than in a Kurz multi.

 

The Kurz pianos/EP/Clavs and stuff that is sample based sounds better from the Kurz. Some of it much much better.

 

Most basic synth sounds driven from an oscillator, if they're not already in the stock Kurz sounds, I can dial in much faster in Retrosynth, ES2 or one of the Arturia products and no one can tell me they sound any better/worse than the Kurzweil synths.

[hardware]

I heard the Physis K4 is what theyre using on the big jobs.

[KorgyPorky]

I heard the Physis K4 is what theyre using on the big jobs.

 

This is exactly the opposite i was looking for..

 

I am looking for a stage piano thats also good at controlling VSTs.

And this is a master controller, that you can expand with some piano sounds..

 

[AnotherScott]

I heard the Physis K4 is what theyre using on the big jobs.

 

This is exactly the opposite i was looking for..

 

I am looking for a stage piano thats also good at controlling VSTs.

And this is a master controller, that you can expand with some piano sounds..

But it is probably the answer to your initial question, "Whats the best stagepiano for controlling software instruments and synths on stage? Or even better, for adding vsts,to its own sounds, combining them both." So, what specifically is wrong with it? Not enough sounds? Too many panel controls? Maybe it would help to qualify the "what's best" question, i.e. best in terms of what.

 

Anyway, of the three you asked about:

 

Nord is arguably best "for controlling software instruments and synths" (greatest number of controls, grouped/labeled in useful non-generic ways, though you can still use the controls more generically when preferred). You have organ controls that look and are labeled like organ controls, synth controls that are grouped and labeled like synth controls, etc., and they are all available simultaneously. But Nord is probably worst at "adding vsts,to its own sounds, combining them both", because once you're using its own sounds, its awkward to integrate VSTs outside its EXT functions, which limit you to two transmit channels per program with only one MIDI-zone specific definable knob.

 

Of the other two, Roland offers more controls than Kurz; I'm not sure but I believe Kurz offers deeper MIDI programming than Roland. Depending on how you want to work, there are ways around both those limitations.

 

... If you need deeper MIDI programming than a board offers, you can do more customization on the receiving end. (This is not true when using the keyboard to control other hardware modules, but since you're controlling a computer where you can make things do pretty much anything you want, you don't need to be so reliant strictly on the MIDI capabilities within the board.)

 

... if you need more hard controls than a board offers, you can add an additional control surface for more knobs/sliders/whatever. (Again, this approach is more viable since you're controlling a computer rather than other hardware, because so many add-on controllers--especially compact ones--are USB only, plus again, you can use the flexibility of the computer to define what those added controls do in what context.)

 

If you're restricting to hammer action boards with aftertouch, I think these are the contenders.

 

Then there's also the variable to consider of which of these has the best piano sounds, or best EP sounds, best organ sounds, or best at whatever else you may want to get from internal to the board rather than from a vst, if that's a factor.

[Tusker]

I am left with this small list...

- Nord Stage 3

- Roland RD2000

- Kurzweil Forte

 

All three are insanely great. They are more than sufficient for the driving software on stage. If I had to choose one, it would be Kurzweil because a) I am a synth nerd, and b) it has more pedal inputs. You may prefer the action, sound or features of the others.

 

I find that pedals (continuous but also switch) are underrated. They can magically reconfigure the software rig while continuing to play the keys. Maybe that is my organ bias. (pipe organ pistons) YMMV.

[Dave Weiser]

I heard the Physis K4 is what theyre using on the big jobs.

 

I did some work for them a few years ago. Very cool technology, tons of potential, great guys at their R&D.

 

My UK partner and I looked at the K4 a while back for our Broadway shows, just to have an emergency backup plan in place if Kurzweil ever got blown up by Godzilla or beamed back to the mothership with Uncle Ray...

 

We're hoping to see if they can grow and solidify their support/service network in the US. We're definitely rooting for them!

 

 

 

[Ian Benhamou]

I find that pedals (continuous but also switch) are underrated. They can magically reconfigure the software rig while continuing to play the keys.

 

Very true! Foot switches allow you to do amazing things like mute/unmute zones without lifting your hands off the keys. With the Kurzweil you could also set them up as momentary or toggle. With momentary, for example, you could unmute an octave layer just for a quick run or brass stab, etc. by pressing down the pedal and holding it the length of the run and let it go when youre done, like you would a sustain pedal. I ise this function quite often and its very very useful

[Iconoclast]

True dat. I'm using more than I want!

 

1 Sustain for top board

1 Sustain for bottom board

1 Leslie speed toggle

1 patch increment

1 volume pedal for top board

1 volume pedal for bottom board

 

That's a lot of real estate taken up by pedals. Mainstage doesn't like multiple sustain and volume pedals. Causes a constant headache sometime to chase down why the wrong pedal is controlling universally for a program. I could probably get by with a single vol/sustain setup and reduce my headaches.

[Ian Benhamou]

I could probably get by with a single vol/sustain setup and reduce my headaches.

 

Ive always worked like this. I find having multiple sustain pedals confusing to work with. You only gonna use 1 sustain at a time anyway, so I use only one and have it assigned to the zone(s) i need sustained.

 

Same with volume pedal. I usually have an extra sustain pedal which I use with my left foot. The extra sustain gets used for special assignment like patch change, mute/unmute zone, modulation/aftertouch, etc. Its setup on a song to song basis depending on my needs.

 

In my TMB rig I had to get used to having multiple sustain and volume pedals on top of also having delays and octaver pedals. Oh and I also have to play bass pedals for 2 tiny parts of songs. It was a major challenge getting all that choreography down. I much prefer my normal approach.

[Tusker]

I could probably get by with a single vol/sustain setup and reduce my headaches.

 

Ive always worked like this. I find having multiple sustain pedals confusing to work with. You only gonna use 1 sustain at a time anyway, so I use only one and have it assigned to the zone(s) i need sustained.

 

Same with volume pedal. I usually have an extra sustain pedal which I use with my left foot. The extra sustain gets used for special assignment like patch change, mute/unmute zone, modulation/aftertouch, etc. Its setup on a song to song basis depending on my needs.

 

That's my ideal also: One sustain pedal for right foot. One swell pedal for left foot (watched Dave Sancious, and decided I could train my left foot also). Additional sustain (switch) pedal for left foot to do special assignments.

 

Sometimes I end up with two switch pedals instead of one, and sometimes (if using a moog) a dedicated CV pedal on the filter cv, right next to the main swell pedal. The second switch pedal is w-aa-y to the left and is primarily used for less musical triggers, like an atmospheric bed, or a loop that runs through the song, or a sound effect in a stage production. The primary switch pedal does the musical stuff as you describe: zone management, modulation, horn articulations ...

 

For me the process follows this shape: < >

A) You start out adding the complexity and features you think you need <

b) Then you get smarter, simpler and more bullet proof >

 

I go through the cycle for every project.

[jimkost2002]

I was considering both the Forte (7) and the RD2000. Primarily as hardware instruments but also to control Keyscape and Omnisphere.

 

I opted to get the RD first primarily for the action, onboard sounds and built-in audio interface. Cons are length and weight.

It arrives tomorrow so I will publish my first impression here as well as on the dedicated RD thread.

 

I also plan to purchase the Forte 7 later in the year.

[Doerfler]

watched Dave Sancious, and decided I could train my left foot also

Good for you, Jerry. I watched David Sancious and decided I should find another hobby.

[Jazz+]

The new 2019 Casio PX-S3000 ($800)

[PianoMan51]

If I were starting to put together a software based system today, I would look at the possibilities of decoupling the keyboard from the control hardware.

 

You have already decoupled the keyboard from the sounds. That puts you in the tweeker realm. Now consider:

 

- the keyboard doesnt need to have any MIDI zones. Do that in software.

- the keyboard only needs to put out MIDI messages for note on/off, velocity, etc.

- pick a board with the right feel, after touch, weight, price, flat top, etc.

 

Then , use alternate MIDI (non-keyboard) controller (s) for onstage control of all the other stuff.

 

Why? When you dont do it this way: you create a closely coupled setup which will require significant redesign when use a different keyboard. Now what happens when you decide that a new keyboard is what you want? FUBAR.

 

When you do it this way: you can use any keyboard. When your controller requirements change, you dont need to buy (and learn, and practice with) a new board. Oh, and have to buy new pedals that work better with the new board.

 

 

[Dave Number Four]

To add to pianoman51's point: OP, if you currently own any midi-capable keyboard at all, you can defer the decision to get a new keyboard for now, and start building out your virtual rig in Gig Performer, mainstage or whatever.

[AnotherScott]

The new 2019 Casio PX-S3000 ($800)

Weak on the part about "for adding vsts,to its own sounds, combining them both" (unless maybe you handle that completely on the computer side), and no front panel controls to recall VST sounds, no aftertouch (and no 2nd expression pedal support, minimal knobs/sliders; those could be added with 3rd-party pieces, though I don't think the rest is close enough to perfect to bother). Maybe just if he likes the action best. Otherwise, within his budget and weight considerations, I think he can do better.

[Sundown]

Absent size and weight, don't discount the Kawai MP11. I bought mine three years ago and it's like owning a fine Italian sports car. I waited twenty-five years to buy a digital piano, and this one was worth the wait. If you value keyboard action, you won't match it anywhere else (excluding perhaps an AvantGrand).

 

It has good acoustic pianos, phenomenal electric pianos, an electric grand, harpsi and clav, and a handful of very useful pads and strings. The onboard effects are great, and you have Setups that can be used to store MIDI settings (plus four knobs and pitch/mod wheels).

[Al Coda]

... the (Physis) K4 ... in place if Kurzweil ever got blown up ...

 

The main difference between a Kurzweil MIDI keyboard controller and the Physis K4 is the number of MIDI channels being controlled.

The difference is BIG between just only 1 MIDI port/ 16 MIDI channels (Kurzweil) and 8 MIDI ports/ 8x 16 MIDI channels = 128 MIDI channels (Viscount/Physis K4/5)!

 

I´m using a Kurzweil,- not only,- but I use one in depth.

 

Nonetheless I also hate how difficult it is buying a Physis K4 where I live.

No shop has ´em in stock and consequently there would be no (local) service.

 

I´d also wish Viscount released a synth action version of the K4/5,- 76 diving board keys (Fatar TP8 or TP9S p.ex.) replacing my Yammi KX76.

And I want it in black if possible.

 

A.C.

[MPN21]

If I were starting to put together a software based system today, I would look at the possibilities of decoupling the keyboard from the control hardware.

 

You have already decoupled the keyboard from the sounds. That puts you in the tweeker realm. Now consider:

 

- the keyboard doesnt need to have any MIDI zones. Do that in software.

- the keyboard only needs to put out MIDI messages for note on/off, velocity, etc.

- pick a board with the right feel, after touch, weight, price, flat top, etc.

 

Then , use alternate MIDI (non-keyboard) controller (s) for onstage control of all the other stuff.

 

Why? When you dont do it this way: you create a closely coupled setup which will require significant redesign when use a different keyboard. Now what happens when you decide that a new keyboard is what you want? FUBAR.

 

When you do it this way: you can use any keyboard. When your controller requirements change, you dont need to buy (and learn, and practice with) a new board. Oh, and have to buy new pedals that work better with the new board.

 

Great ideas. In my case, I need a flexible MIDI foot controller for expression, CC and PC messages plus a 9 drawbars controller.

[AnotherScott]

The main difference between a Kurzweil MIDI keyboard controller and the Physis K4 is the number of MIDI channels being controlled.

The difference is BIG between just only 1 MIDI port/ 16 MIDI channels (Kurzweil) and 8 MIDI ports/ 8x 16 MIDI channels = 128 MIDI channels (Viscount/Physis K4/5)!

Other big difference is the sheer number of programmable sliders/knobs/buttons/wheels/pedals.