timwat Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 BbAltered, I hope the best for you in the conversation that is to come. It's difficult to know from this side of the computer screen what your BL's expectations are, only the necessary dialogue will make that clear. My only suggestion at this point is not to go into the exchange allowing anyone else to make you feel bad for drawing your own boundaries. Which of course includes us on this forum too. Your description of your band situation is entirely different than my current gigging situation, so I don't think I'd be that helpful telling you what to expect / demand / etc. But what caught my eye is your trepidation that others might make you feel selfish / independent / etc. I would rather encourage you to decide what you want from this band, and what you want from this specific situation, and not allow others to make you feel badly about what you've thoughtfully considered and any conclusions you reach. For whatever it's worth, if they start looking for another KB player because you chose to speak up about compensation, my thought would be that's one band you can stand to put in your rear view mirror. The only other thing I'd add is what Peter Horvath keeps telling me - when it comes to gigs, I have to get either 1) paid, 2) musical growth, 3) hella fun times. And hopefully some combination of all three...but two will suffice. And if you're not getting ANY of those three...why are you still there? If nothing else, perhaps some food for thought for you. Hope it goes well and update us after you have the conversation with them. Tim .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 For whatever it's worth, if they start looking for another KB player because you chose to speak up about compensation, my thought would be that's one band you can stand to put in your rear view mirror. This. Tim put into words my exact thoughts as I reached the end of the previous page of comments... Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37 Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PianoMan51 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Here's what I do: If it's a gig that I support (non-profit organization, personal, etc) I quote the cost of the band at normal rate minus my pay. If it seems appropriate, I tell the band that I'm donating my services. Without any implied expectations. from them. I have a small group of A-listers that I want for gigs. It's about what they bring and our friendship. Both. That relationship is far far more important than any gift I might make to a cause, occasion, etc. I have one reed player who is sensitive to being asked to 'donate' his service. He is nice enough and good enough to be playing for free constantly. For him, and because when I play with him I have a big f'ing grin when he plays, I'll sometimes give him some of my pay, or even better, I know what kind of Bourbon he likes! I guess the short answer is: don't ef your friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moj Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Maybe get ahead of it. During the next rehearsal, first thing you say: Band: We've decided to do-you-a-good-one and donate our time to the wedding. However, we would want a favor in return. BL's: Ah, that's great, but what kind of favor? Band: Well, because we're playing for free we would want a BIG favor in return. BL's: Uh, hmm what kind of favor?! Band: We're still discussing it and we'll let you know. See how that plays out. This scenario happened in a previous band I played with for a political fun-raiser for the BL's friend who was running for Mayor. We got compensated, like the caterers, sound, video and other help did. BL didn't want this "favor" hanging over him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 My only suggestion at this point is not to go into the exchange allowing anyone else to make you feel bad for drawing your own boundaries. Which of course includes us on this forum too. That's a very wise approach, and made me pause & think about what I've contributed in this thread... I'll admit to being triggered by some memories of a band I was in years ago, with a husband & wife team as leaders (actually it was the wife that seemed to be the real leader). I truly believe they're good people, but as I understood it they had never been sidepersons their entire professional lives were as leaders of their own band. I felt they lacked the perspective that I and many of my other musician friends had when it came to certain issues, compensation being the major one. I never was asked to play a gig for free, but there were other things. When you are a sideperson and freelancer like myself, you work with a wide variety of leaders on many different kinds of gigs, and I think that helps one get a certain perspective as to what counts in maintaining a healthy working relationship with each other. I can't say I wasn't ignorant of many things v.a.v. this wonderful "business" so maybe the leaders of BbAltered's band are in the same spot. I would hope they could be approached in a non-confrontational way and might respond with understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonglow Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I dont make my living playing music, so I would be inclined to play for free and consider it a good deed, good karma, etc. You also never know when you might need a favor, so you would sort of have this in the bank so to say. Im trying to think of a cordial way to let the BL know you are seeking clarification. Maybe something like, Should we consider this a gig?...a gift?...something in between? Or perhaps, Are you asking for our musical contributions to be considered a gift, or would your kid prefer a set of steak knives? Just something to crack the ice and get the dialog going. "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Lobo Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Should we consider this a gig?...a gift? I like that. Reasonable question seeking clarification. These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 No. Like Tim said, if the professional relationship is a worthwhile one, there shouldn't be any reason why you can't be direct with them and make it clear you have an entirely reasonable expectation of being paid for your services. Studio: Yamaha P515 | Yamaha Tyros 5 | Yamaha HX1 | Moog Sub 37 Road: Yamaha YC88 | Nord Electro 5D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-string-man Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I love this forum! Plenty of people on here have helped me, made me laugh so much much that I've sprayed drink all over my screen, and encouraged me. However, even amongst all this plethora of goodness, Timwat stands out for his compassion, insight, empathy, and general all round common sense. I salute you sir! Occasionally, do something nice for a total stranger. They'll wonder what the hell is going on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David R Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I played for the wedding of two friends. I waived my own fee but made sure I paid the other musicians with me. It's already been covered here but join me to the chorus of finding out what the gig actually pays. In a circumstance like that, it's presumptuous of the BLs to assume anyone other than themselves would play for free. Conversely, it's presumptive to assume you're not being paid in this scenario. My Site Nord Electro 5D, Novation Launchkey 61, Logic Pro X, Mainstage 3, lots of plugins, fingers, pencil, paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryjam Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I'm a BL in a 20 year wedding and corporate band. My earlier remark about the BLs potentially being manipulative comes from knowing that some musicians feel reluctant to ask about pay but virtually all of them are thinking about it in the first 10 nanoseconds of the "conversation." Every BL knows this! One of the top assertiveness books back in the '70s was titled "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty." In the worst case, some BL know that they can get away with stuff by remaining silent, knowing that some musicians will refrain from limit setting. Regardless of the intentions of the husband/wife BL team, bringing up the concerns openingly can be skill building that is as important as technical chops, soul, equipment, and showing up on time. I sometimes speak up, I sometimes let things pass. I strive to have that decision not be dictated by fear. Assertiveness for me is usually Win-Win for all parties. It gets complicated in BL situations when it feels like I'm trying to represent both the "clients" and the musicians. Barry Home: Steinway L, Montage 8 Gigs: Yamaha CP88, Crumar Mojo 61, A&H SQ5 mixer, ME1 IEM, MiPro 909 IEMs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Lobo Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 ... knowing that some musicians feel reluctant to ask about pay but virtually all of them are thinking about it in the first 10 nanoseconds of the "conversation." Exactly. These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 One of the top assertiveness books back in the '70s was titled "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty." In the worst case, some BL know that they can get away with stuff by remaining silent, knowing that some musicians will refrain from limit setting. Regardless of the intentions of the husband/wife BL team, bringing up the concerns openingly can be skill building that is as important as technical chops, soul, equipment, and showing up on time. You are spot on. In the wedding/corporate band I referred to a few posts above, I had quit after a particularly egregious incident of a long travel gig with zero extra compensation. A few months later I was asked back, as the keyboardist they got didn't work out (he did have a better looking rig than me, though!). We had a civil back & forth where I spoke my piece, and ended up negotiating new terms for my employment as it pertained to travel compensation. The drag was that it came to me quitting the band for them to get it I'm not sure my negotiating position would have been as secure otherwise. I got the "don't tell the other guys" line too! Don't you love this business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotiDave Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 Are we talking about a typical pay of $50? Ill point to perhaps another perspective - if he invited you as just a guest because youre semi-friends and semi-professionally associated - how much might you spend on a wedding gift? Maybe $50-ish? Maybe $100? Just a thought. I wouldnt break up your current situation over just this one-off. If you have other or larger issues in the working relationship, id feel this isnt the one to be the last straw. Wait for the next straw. Uh, how many kids does he have lol. The baiting I do is purely for entertainment value. Please feel free to ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryjam Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 Anybody doing weddings for $50? LA band members generally make $350-500 or more for the reception alone. Might be a regional thing. Barry Home: Steinway L, Montage 8 Gigs: Yamaha CP88, Crumar Mojo 61, A&H SQ5 mixer, ME1 IEM, MiPro 909 IEMs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 The only other thing I'd add is what Peter Horvath keeps telling me - when it comes to gigs, I have to get either 1) paid, 2) musical growth, 3) hella fun times. And hopefully some combination of all three...but two will suffice. And if you're not getting ANY of those three...why are you still there? aka The Money, the Music, the Hang, you need at least two out of three. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 I love this forum! Plenty of people on here have helped me, made me laugh so much much that I've sprayed drink all over my screen, and encouraged me. However, even amongst all this plethora of goodness, Timwat stands out for his compassion, insight, empathy, and general all round common sense. I salute you sir! And I salute you right back, sir. Thanks so much for the kind words. I really appreciate it. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 aka The Money, the Music, the Hang, you need at least two out of three. Absolutely. He really made me reassess some of the less-than-optimal gigs I had committed to and clean it up. And it really paid off for me - I got much better gig invites as a result, and I'm way happier to boot. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 aka The Money, the Music, the Hang, you need at least two out of three. Absolutely. He really made me reassess some of the less-than-optimal gigs I had committed to and clean it up. And it really paid off for me - I got much better gig invites as a result, and I'm way happier to boot. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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