wondering if there will be a new Yamaha S90?

[zephonic]

I came really close to copping an S90XS in 2012, but eventually settled on the NordPiano because Ferris gave me a good deal, it weighed less, and the S90XS with a case wouldn't fit in the back of my car. The S70XS felt like poor value and wasn't really on my radar.

 

At the time I thought it would have been perfect if Yamaha had kept the original S90 layout, with the wheels above the keys.

 

I suspect that the MOX8/MOXF8 have cannibalized S90XS sales, and perhaps Yamaha no longer sees a viable business case for the S series. That would be a shame.

 

While the MOXF8 is great value, its DAC and GHS action are definitely a class below what I assume would be in a possible S100 (is what I'll call the potential S90's successor for now).

 

Now, the Montage is fine as it is, but the 88 is HUGE. I'd opt for a 76 semi-weighted, but the piano sound is so killer it is almost a crime not to play that from a weighted 88.

 

And that is how I arrive at the S100. Both 88 and 76 with the Balanced Hammer Effect action, same DAC as the Montage, Audio/MIDI over USB. Around the same price point as the S90XS.

 

I assume this is a niche market, but seeing how Nords are still selling very well at similar prices, I have to believe there is demand for something like this?

 

 

[The Piano Man]

Agree absolutely. I, for one, would like more pro options for stage players without excessive bulk. I need a minimum of four overlapping zones so the CP4 is no use. A new "S100" would be perfect if the kept it compact.

 

So many boards compromise on keybed, construction, audio outputs, power supply etc

 

How many portable boards are there out there with internal power supply, decent keybed, decent construction, a minimum of four zones and a minimum of four audio outs? The S70xs meets the above but could sure do with updating

[AnotherScott]

How many portable boards are there out there with internal power supply, decent keybed, decent construction, a minimum of four zones and a minimum of four audio outs? The S70xs meets the above but could sure do with updating

Kurzweil Forte7 sounds like your best match. The Kronos 73 maybe, but it's a bit large. Nord Stage 3 maybe, but its zoning may not be flexible enough (it does support 3 split points, but there are lots of limitations in how you can set them up).

[The Piano Man]

How many portable boards are there out there with internal power supply, decent keybed, decent construction, a minimum of four zones and a minimum of four audio outs? The S70xs meets the above but could sure do with updating

Kurzweil Forte7 sounds like your best match. The Kronos 73 maybe, but it's a bit large. Nord Stage 3 maybe, but its zoning may not be flexible enough (it does support 3 split points, but there are lots of limitations in how you can set them up).

 

Could I also get it all for under £2000 (uk sterling) Haha. I guess one can't have everything!! Gotta pay for quality. I just don't have £2600 to spend! £1800 would be better. So I can get the Artis 88 but I'm stuck with only a pair of audio outs and the tp-100 action. I put up with that action in the Stage 2 ex hp76 but it only weighs 12.4kg!! The Artis is 22kg

[ElmerJFudd]

I came really close to copping an S90XS in 2012, but eventually settled on the NordPiano because Ferris gave me a good deal, it weighed less, and the S90XS with a case wouldn't fit in the back of my car. The S70XS felt like poor value and wasn't really on my radar.

 

At the time I thought it would have been perfect if Yamaha had kept the original S90 layout, with the wheels above the keys.

 

I suspect that the MOX8/MOXF8 have cannibalized S90XS sales, and perhaps Yamaha no longer sees a viable business case for the S series. That would be a shame.

 

While the MOXF8 is great value, its DAC and GHS action are definitely a class below what I assume would be in a possible S100 (is what I'll call the potential S90's successor for now).

 

Now, the Montage is fine as it is, but the 88 is HUGE. I'd opt for a 76 semi-weighted, but the piano sound is so killer it is almost a crime not to play that from a weighted 88.

 

And that is how I arrive at the S100. Both 88 and 76 with the Balanced Hammer Effect action, same DAC as the Montage, Audio/MIDI over USB. Around the same price point as the S90XS.

 

I assume this is a niche market, but seeing how Nords are still selling very well at similar prices, I have to believe there is demand for something like this?

 

 

Plus the Montage is more performance based synth as it is. The S90 is typically a more affordable performance variant of the Motif workstation. Maybe we'll see a trickle down Montage board like Kurzweil does with the Forte SE or SP6 - but I doubt it.

[Synthoid]

Maybe we'll see a trickle down Montage board like Kurzweil does with the Forte SE or SP6 - but I doubt it.

 

They always had "trickles" from the Motif series--let's see what happens at NAMM this winter.

 

 

[DanL]

The S versions typically come out a year or so after the big workstation don't they?

[zephonic]

Plus the Montage is more performance based synth as it is. The S90 is typically a more affordable performance variant of the Motif workstation. Maybe we'll see a trickle down Montage board like Kurzweil does with the Forte SE or SP6 - but I doubt it.

 

Yeah, the Montage is not a typical workstation, but there are still things they could ditch for a S-100; like the touch display, super knob, motion control etc. As long as they keep the BHE action, DAC's and the internal PSU.

 

I know, though, it looks like the MOXF has made the S90 redundant. Maybe most folks don't care for those particular qualities if it costs $800 more.

 

[AnotherScott]

As long as they keep the BHE action, DAC's and the internal PSU.

 

I know, though, it looks like the MOXF has made the S90 redundant. Maybe most folks don't care for those particular qualities if it costs $800 more.

...or weighs almost 17 lbs more.

 

It also has aftertouch, but as big a fan of AT as I am, I prefer it on my non-hammer actions.

[ElmerJFudd]

It also has aftertouch, but as big a fan of AT as I am, I prefer it on my non-hammer actions.

 

^^^

i agree

depending how its implemented it can mess with how well a hammer action plays/feels.

[allan_evett]

I believe there'd be a demand for it. Considering the recent release of the Korg Grandstage and Roland RD-2000, Yamaha's stage 88 offering could use a facelift. Would be great to see significant sound influence from the Montage, but in a leaner package. I dig my Montage 8, but it's a beast to move - and has a host of features I'll likely never use on stage. Would be great to see Yamaha abandon the Motif-based organs in favor of a Reface styled offering, but I won't hold my breath

[AnotherScott]

I believe there'd be a demand for it. Considering the recent release of the Korg Grandstage and Roland RD-2000, Yamaha's stage 88 offering could use a facelift.

I think the CP4 kind of fills that niche for them. I think it falls short for zephonic by not having the USB audio? And not being available in 76 keys. Though neither is the Roland. Hey, that could be an interesting piano for Roland's Sept 15 announcement, a 76 key RD2000, or a 76 key FP90 for that matter.

[ElmerJFudd]

Or any DX, AN, or VL style synthesis going on. At least the Montage got serious about FM. Would love to see something in the EX5 lineage or loaded S90ES return. They have the cost effective processors now to do it really well. Plus bigger color touch screen to help tame the user interface.

[zephonic]

I don't remember if the S90ES had aftertouch or not, but it always felt great to me. As did the Motif ES8/XS8.

 

The CP4 is nice but too restricted in terms of sound palette. That was my main difficulty with the NP88. I need more versatility than what a typical stage piano offers.

 

Otherwise, the CP4 leads me to believe the S100 needn't be as heavy as its predecessor. The CP4 has great action, internal PSU, and weighs 38 lbs. Even if we assume there's more printboards and chips in the Montage, I don't know why an S100 would have to weigh more than 45 lbs.

[ElmerJFudd]

S90ES has AT - it's good for playing pianos on (though balanced, no change in weight on the way up). It does feel different than say a CP4 on the bottom. Obviously you can push into it to trigger AT.

 

I haven't figured out what I'd like to do exactly if anything going forward, but since action is a big deal for me I'm more and more inclined to keep an instrument that plays well and add a module or pc than not.

[Theo Verelst]

I'm going to say something funny, but bear with me, I'm not leading you on, promise. I don't know about the precise S90 upgrade, which I kind of thought was the XF, but the CP4 can sound enchanting but in spite od the lack of sound editing and out-of-the-box "not great" other sounds, it can do absolutely stunning sound outside of pianos. Like strings, synthesizer, and others I didn't check out yet on my latest effect edit results. I'll make some of the progress available.

 

T

[Jon G]

If Yamaha could cram an updated S90 with aftertouch into a CP4 case, I would be really interested. I wonder if Yamaha could make a NW-GH action with AT? I don't understand the technology behind it at all. AFAIK, AT is only available on the Balanced Hammer Effect keyboards.

[zephonic]

Yeah, an updated S90 about the size of the CP4, and not much more weight either; that'd be great. I'd want that.

 

Another thing occurred to me: now that they have the MX88, they could (should?) upgrade the MOXF to the GH action (what's in the P-255). IMO, that would make it an even better value proposition. I feel the GHS action is subpar for an instrument at that price point.

 

 

As an aside, a few years ago I played a MOXF (or maybe it was a MOX) and Motif XF side by side. The difference in sound quality was obvious. The Motif was clear and pristine, the MOXF sounded muddy in comparison.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Another thing occurred to me: now that they have the MX88, they could (should?) upgrade the MOXF to the GH action (what's in the P-255). IMO, that would make it an even better value proposition. I feel the GHS action is subpar for an instrument at that price point.

The problem is that it would probably make the MOXF about 45 lbs, which would eliminate a lot of its appeal. It would also make it more expensive, also reducing some of its appeal. I'd also say the GHS action is not necessarily subpar at that price point for a board that has all the MOXF features/functionality. Yamaha basically says, you can get the GH action and a bunch of Motif sounds for $1400 (CP40), or a whole lot more Motif functionality and a lesser action for $1700 (MOXF8). Maybe there would be a market for a $2000 version with better action and higher travel weight--which is kind of what the S90XS was when they were selling the earlier MOX8. But I suspect that if lots of people were choosing the heavier, better action S90XS over the MOX8, there would be a S90XF today. Competitively, the MOXF8 is priced near the Krome 88 and the FA-08. It's action is at least competitive with its peers.

 

A few years ago I played a MOXF (or maybe it was a MOX) and Motif XF side by side. The difference in sound quality was obvious. The Motif was clear and pristine, the MOXF sounded muddy in comparison.

I did a somewhat similar comparison, driving a Motif Rack XS from a MOX8 (no obvious difference) and from some other action (I'm not sure which, I think a Casio PX-something)... it sounded better from the other action. I suspect that the issue is one of the velocity response of the MOXF keys not driving the sound engine as hard, so everything sounds a little duller by comparison. So I wonder if the Motif XF may have sounded better largely because of different velocity response.

[zephonic]

Another thing occurred to me: now that they have the MX88, they could (should?) upgrade the MOXF to the GH action (what's in the P-255). IMO, that would make it an even better value proposition. I feel the GHS action is subpar for an instrument at that price point.

The problem is that it would probably make the MOXF about 45 lbs, which would eliminate a lot of its appeal.

 

The P-255 weighs 38 lbs: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/p_series/p-255/specs.html

 

If you ditch its internal speakers and amplification, would the extra buttons/sliders/knobs really add another 7 lbs?

 

Yamaha basically says, you can get the GH action and a bunch of Motif sounds for $1400 (CP40), or a whole lot more Motif functionality and a lesser action for $1700 (MOXF8).

 

After last night's gig, I started looking at the CP-40, go figure. On the acoustic piano side it will be a substantial upgrade over the MX88, but I'd lose USB audio and I'm not so sure about the CP Rhodes. The few times I played the CP4, I didn't dig the EP's much. Other than that, the CP40 seems pretty great.

 

A few years ago I played a MOXF (or maybe it was a MOX) and Motif XF side by side. The difference in sound quality was obvious. The Motif was clear and pristine, the MOXF sounded muddy in comparison.

I did a somewhat similar comparison, driving a Motif Rack XS from a MOX8 (no obvious difference) and from some other action (I'm not sure which, I think a Casio PX-something)... it sounded better from the other action. I suspect that the issue is one of the velocity response of the MOXF keys not driving the sound engine as hard, so everything sounds a little duller by comparison. So I wonder if the Motif XF may have sounded better largely because of different velocity response.

 

I am not 100% sure, but I think I compared the Motif XF6 to the MOX(F)6.

[ElmerJFudd]

I've sat in as sub on a CP-40 a few times. Sounds pretty well, the action I found meh. Lots of deals to be had on a CP4 now if needing to choose between the two. Haggle with your favorite sales rep.

[AnotherScott]

The P-255 weighs 38 lbs...If you ditch its internal speakers and amplification, would the extra buttons/sliders/knobs really add another 7 lbs?

and a bigger chassis and a bunch more internal electronics. Anyway, here's how you look at it in reverse. The P-255 weighs 38 lbs. But in size and functionality, among GHS keyboards, it's closer to the P-115 than the MOXF, yet it weighs 12 lbs more than the P-115. That's where I got my estimate from. But yeah, it would probably be less, since the action isn't the only difference. Still, I think it's a safe bet we're talking about something in the 40 lb+ range.

 

I am not 100% sure, but I think I compared the Motif XF6 to the MOX(F)6.

Ah, yeah, I was comparing weighted actions. But the unweighted actions of the Motif XS/XF and MOX/MOXF were likewise not identical, so it could still be difference in velocity response. When you auditioned/compared, what was your playback system?

[zephonic]

Yamaha HS-50 or M-Audio BX-5, I think. Not sure.