Mojo 61 Lower Manual

[mdh25]

Just saw this listed on Crumar's website and FB post.

 

http://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=34

 

I'm looking forward to checking it out!

 

-Mark

 

 

[LX88]

I wonder how wide the distance between the two keybeds is. It looks slightly different than a traditional dual manual.

[ElmerJFudd]

This came up a few weeks ago.

It's a pretty small difference in distance from the real deal.

I'll find the thread/post...

Maybe AnotherScott remembers the exact figure.

He's got a memory like an elephant I tell you!

[Kurt W]

"A single special MIDI cable will connect both units for power and data"

 

Hope that it is possible to trigger VB3 lower manual from the high trigger point as well as simultanously merge midi note with velocity (ie using both trigger points) from the lower manual to the Mojo61 midi out. That would be a very nice midi controller for organists.

[Joe Muscara]

This came up a few weeks ago.

It's a pretty small difference in distance from the real deal.

Discussed here and later on here

[wd8dky]

Has anyone picked up the lower manual yet? If so, any comments on it?

 

Thank you.

[Dave Bryce]

I have one, of course. What would you like to know? Same keybed as the 61, only requires one specially wired DIN cable between it and the 61 - not even a power cable! Only works in VB3 mode.

 

It's basically like you get another manual for console organ mode.

 

 

dB

[wd8dky]

Thank you, Dave. Your notes completely answer my question.

 

Enjoy the day!

[AnotherScott]

I have one, of course. What would you like to know? Same keybed as the 61, only requires one specially wired DIN cable between it and the 61 - not even a power cable! Only works in VB3 mode.

Is there any chance this could work with the VB3 of the Gemini module? From a hardware perspective, I would be surprised if the Mojo 61's MIDI jacks were doing something special, the "magic" would appear to be in some combination of the lower manual's electronics, the special cable, and perhaps software in the Mojo 61 that enables it to "understand" the extra manual, but if the VB3 software on the Mojo 61 and the Gemini module are the same, maybe there's some chance the module would recognize it as well?

[Dave Bryce]

Well...if my recollection is correct - always questionable these days - MIDI cables and jacks are wired on the 2, 4 and 5 pin of the five pin DIN connector. You count them unconventionally, IIRC - 2, 4, and 5 are actually the middle three pins with 2 being the center one. Regular DIN sync was 1, 2, and 3.

 

I've never asked the Crumar guys, but I guess what they did was to wire up all five pins in some proprietary configuration - maybe power on 1 and 3 (the two outside pins). If that is the case, it seems to make sense that both instruments involved would have to be prewired to make it work.

 

My question here is - with which Gemini are you looking to do this? The DMC already has two keyboards, and neither other incarnation even has one...and (unlike Mojo61) all Gemini modules have two discrete engines and can be separately triggered from any two MIDI keyboards/sources...

 

It's still before 8 AM here, so please forgive me if I'm missing something obvious.

 

dB

[AnotherScott]

If that is the case, it seems to make sense that both instruments involved would have to be prewired to make it work.

Possible, though that would also mean that they had the idea of doing the add-on manual as part of the initial design of the Mojo 61 itself, which would surprise me considering the time gap (i.e. that there was no hint of a forthcoming lower manual until well after the Mojo 61 had started shipping)... but yeah, it's not impossible.

 

My question here is - with which Gemini are you looking to do this? The DMC already has two keyboards, and neither other incarnation even has one...and (unlike Mojo61) all Gemini modules have two discrete engines and can be separately triggered from any two MIDI keyboards/sources...

I'm talking about the Gemini desktop module. My thought was to trigger that Gemini Module with my existing NE5D. And yes, I could use any board as a second manual, but the Mojo 61 Lower Module would nicely fit under the NE5D... not as nicely as it fits under the Mojo 61, but it would similarly allow me to use the "lower manual" board simultaneously as a support for the "upper manual" board, keeping the two actions close together, and allowing me to use the two-manual organ plus another board while using only a two-tier stand instead of a three-tier stand.

 

Of course, wth a Mojo lower manual beneath either one, an NE5D+GeminiModule is quite a bit more expensive than a Mojo 61, but it also gives me essentially all the sounds and functionality of the Mojo 61 and then quite a bit more. Plus I already own the NE5D. ;-)

 

BTW the Gemini desktop module would fit very nicely on the panel surface of an NE5D 73. I would expect no problem in using the Nord's drawbars to control one manual of VB3 in the Gemini (and I'd be content using preset drawbar configs for the other manual, or I could get fancy and set up some other drawbar device for that). But one thing I don't know yet is whether I'd be able to use those the Nord's drawbars to control the Gemini while playing piano or synth/sample (or possibly even both) from the Nord itself. It would be an interesting thing to experiment with, even without the lower manual option, but becomes that much more interesting if the lower manual could be incorporated as well.

 

p.s. -- an NE5D (either 61 or 73) plus a velcro'd Gemini desktop module still weighs less than a Mojo 61!

[Dave Bryce]

that would also mean that they had the idea of doing the add-on manual as part of the initial design of the Mojo 61 itself, which would surprise me considering the time gap (i.e. that there was no hint of a forthcoming lower manual until well after the Mojo 61 had started shipping)

Maybe for you...

 

The lower was always part of the plan, as far as I know. It was leaked a bit when people noticed that there was a half moon option for the 61, but no place to mount it.

 

My thought was to trigger that Gemini Module with my existing NE5D. And yes, I could use any board as a second manual, but the Mojo 61 Lower Module would nicely fit under the NE5D... not as nicely as it fits under the Mojo 61, but it would similarly allow me to use the "lower manual" board simultaneously as a support for the "upper manual" board, keeping the two actions close together, and allowing me to use the two-manual organ plus another board while using only a two-tier stand instead of a three-tier stand.

 

Of course, wth a Mojo lower manual beneath either one, an NE5D+GeminiModule is quite a bit more expensive than a Mojo 61, but it also gives me essentially all the sounds and functionality of the Mojo 61 and then quite a bit more. Plus I already own the NE5D. ;-)

 

BTW the Gemini desktop module would fit very nicely on the panel surface of an NE5D 73. I would expect no problem in using the Nord's drawbars to control one manual of VB3 in the Gemini (and I'd be content using preset drawbar configs for the other manual, or I could get fancy and set up some other drawbar device for that). But one thing I don't know yet is whether I'd be able to use those the Nord's drawbars to control the Gemini while playing piano or synth/sample (or possibly even both) from the Nord itself. It would be an interesting thing to experiment with, even without the lower manual option, but becomes that much more interesting if the lower manual could be incorporated as well.

Totally clear - thanks for taking the time to explain! Nice idea as well...

 

My guess is that it won't work, though. I could be wrong....

 

dB

[AnotherScott]

that would also mean that they had the idea of doing the add-on manual as part of the initial design of the Mojo 61 itself, which would surprise me considering the time gap (i.e. that there was no hint of a forthcoming lower manual until well after the Mojo 61 had started shipping)

Maybe for you...

Touche! Though also, if they did build something special into the MIDI circuit of the Mojo 61 to support this, and so much of the Mojo design was put into the Gemini module, it may not be impossible that they used the same MIDI design in the module...?

 

My guess is that it won't work, though. I could be wrong....

Yeah, I guess we'll just have to wait until maybe someone here with a lower manual unit has some other clone they could try plugging it into! A further complication is that, even if it works with some other boards, it won't necessarily work with all, as not all boards supply the same (or possibly any) voltage from their MIDI connectors. That's why MIDI Solutions boxes sometimes work straight and sometimes require their add-on to supply power. (Though in that case, something like their power box might work for this other application as well.)

 

Can you describe how this specially wired DIN cable connects the lower manual to the Mojo 61? Is it just a single cable from the lower manual attaching to the Mojo 61's MIDI IN? MIDI IN does not typically supply voltage afaik, so that would imply to me that it couldn't work with anything else, unless they did copy the same MIDI circuitry into the Gemini, or maybe you added that MIDI Solutions voltage thing into the setup to supply power.

[Dave Bryce]

if they did build something special into the MIDI circuit of the Mojo 61 to support this, and so much of the Mojo design was put into the Gemini module, it may not be impossible that they used the same MIDI design in the module...?

Actually, I'm not inclined to agree. I believe the Mojo61 was deisgned specifically with this purpose for the reasons I mentioned. The Gemini came while before the Mojo61, and I do not believe it's hardware was designed with this in mind.

 

 

Can you describe how this specially wired DIN cable connects the lower manual to the Mojo 61? Is it just a single cable from the lower manual attaching to the Mojo 61's MIDI IN?

 

Yes.

 

MIDI IN does not typically supply voltage afaik, so that would imply to me that it couldn't work with anything else, unless they did copy the same MIDI circuitry into the Gemini

My thinking as well.

 

If the Gemini already did this I'm guessing I'd have heard about it, because they could package one with a lower keyboard and put any other keyboard on top.

 

dB

 

[Joe Muscara]

dB - have you ever had the original Mojo? I don't remember, but if you do or did, how would you compare it to the Mojo 61 + lower manual? As you know, I have the 61 but I'm wondering what you like better as a dual manual organ clone, especially now that you're an expert on the real thing.

[AnotherScott]

it may not be impossible that they used the same MIDI design in the module...?

Actually, I'm not inclined to agree. I believe the Mojo61 was deisgned specifically with this purpose for the reasons I mentioned. The Gemini came while before the Mojo61, and I do not believe it's hardware was designed with this in mind.

Ah, I guess I had the timeline reversed.

 

If the Gemini already did this I'm guessing I'd have heard about it, because they could package one with a lower keyboard and put any other keyboard on top.

There's a product idea for their next rev!

[Dave Bryce]

dB - have you ever had the original Mojo?

 

I have one now.

 

I don't remember, but if you do or did, how would you compare it to the Mojo 61 + lower manual? As you know, I have the 61 but I'm wondering what you like better as a dual manual organ clone, especially now that you're an expert on the real thing.

Expert. Riiiiight.

 

Re: Mojo vs. 61...they sound and feel the same, as far as I can tell...but I've never sat down and studied if I could tell the differences blindfolded or anything. The 61 is newer and shinier to be sure, but the dual mojo is kinda cooler because you can put an EP on the lower and an organ on the upper, or vice versa...but the 61 has that whole Wifi editor thing, which is way convenient.

 

dB

 

 

[sosho]

I really like the modular concept . But that special MIDI cable... How much is a replacement , where can you buy those ( or is there a diagram so someone who is able to do it can solder one) ?

[Markyboard]

I'm fairly certain that "special" midi cable isn't too special. It has 4 wires plus shield to connect all 5 contacts on each connector plug. Some midi cables only provide 2 wires plus shield connecting the 3 standard midi contacts (pin 2,4,5) and leaving pins 1 and 3 unconnected.

 

Most cables I've seen provide connections for all 5 pins. Just got to make sure that's the case when using any cable not provide by Crumar.

[nadroj]

Re the extra voices on the 61 - are these the same extra voices that are availible for the dual manual Mojo?

[ZioGuido]

It's no secret, and nothing really special... we just implemented what someone calls "Power Over MIDI", that consists, as someone stated before, in taking advantage of the two unused pins of a DIN5 connector used for the MIDI connection (which only uses the middle 3 pins) for providing power to a device connected to the MIDI INPUT socket.

 

The only special thing in the MIDI cable used for the Mojo61 Lower manual is the way it is constructed, because it uses two L-shape plugs soldered in opposite directions, and of course all 5 pins are connected. That cable can be easily replaced with any other MIDI cable that uses all 5 wires.

 

The reason why the Lower manual itself can't be used with other equipment is that it doesn't send standard MIDI NOTE messages. It's still MIDI, but it would require some external "translator" unit that transforms the message it produces into standard note on and off messages.

 

The Lower manual was part of the Mojo61 project since the beginning, everything was well thought out and planned since day one.

 

[AnotherScott]

The reason why the Lower manual itself can't be used with other equipment is that it doesn't send standard MIDI NOTE messages. It's still MIDI, but it would require some external "translator" unit that transforms the message it produces into standard note on and off messages.

Very interesting! Assuming the Gemini Desktop can't understand that "modified MIDI" for lower manual, is there any chance that capability could be added to a software update to the Gemini? Which I guess could be a two part question... whether it's technically feasible, and if so whether you have any interest in doing it! But as mentioned, it would allow someone to use the Gemini with your lower manual, while allowing them to also use whatever other board they might like to use as an upper manual controller for the Gemini.

[ZioGuido]

That would make no point because the Gemini would not provide power to the Lower manual. They're two products aimed at two distinct uses... and don't even come under the same brand

 

However, for someone wanting to "hack" the lower manual, it'd be very easy to do with an Arduino board and a soldering iron.

[AnotherScott]

That would make no point because the Gemini would not provide power to the Lower manual.

Ah, so there is at least that hardware limitation. Though as I alluded to, that could possibly be somehow addressed with a MIDI Solutions power adapter? http://www.midisolutions.com/prodpwr.htm

 

However, for someone wanting to "hack" the lower manual, it'd be very easy to do with an Arduino board and a soldering iron.

Or, possibly a MIDI Solutions Event Processor, or an iOS (or laptop) MIDI processing app...? i.e. if one could examine the existing MIDI stream and see how it needs to be altered to create the more traditional MIDI data needed by the Gemini module? Or would that be pretty cryptic?

 

I understand the Gemini desktop module and the lower manual are "two products aimed at two distinct uses" but as I explained in an earlier post, I can envision a scenario where the combination could theoretically be pretty useful, if it could be made to work. After all, the Gemini desktop module is already (obviously) designed to be run from an external controller, and it supports two manuals... so once you have the module and your first controller, you Lower Manual could be a nice way to add a second manual to whatever else someone is using.

[Joe Muscara]

Re: Mojo vs. 61...they sound and feel the same, as far as I can tell...but I've never sat down and studied if I could tell the differences blindfolded or anything. The 61 is newer and shinier to be sure, but the dual mojo is kinda cooler because you can put an EP on the lower and an organ on the upper, or vice versa...but the 61 has that whole Wifi editor thing, which is way convenient.

Thanks, dB!

[AndreaAgnoletto]

I really like the modular concept . But that special MIDI cable... How much is a replacement , where can you buy those ( or is there a diagram so someone who is able to do it can solder one) ?

 

Don't worry, it's a standard power-over-midi cable and the replacement is a 8 USD stuff: 2 cables are included in the lower manual box... just in case :-)

[jmoslomo]

I have been thinking about (actually trying to find one just to play, I live in Rome, Italy, you think there might be one around here to try it out, but no) buying a Mojo 61 and also had questions about the lower keyboard too. In the event I do buy one, my idea was this, there is a organ keyboard made by Doepfer (Doepfer D3m) 425 euros, 61 key, midi in/out, black aluminum case, 6.5 kg, check it out at Thomann Music. Seems to be the same Fatar keybed as the Mojo 61 but probably feels different as it hasn't been set up to Mojo specs. Be that as it may, it would seem to be a lot more flexible as far as running other midi instruments off of, not to say cheaper. In the event, if I finally buy the Mojo 61 I will keep everyone posted as to how workable this setup turns out to be.

[Sven Golly]

there is a organ keyboard made by Doepfer (Doepfer D3m) 425 euros, 61 key, midi in/out, black aluminum case, 6.5 kg, check it out at Thomann Music. Seems to be the same Fatar keybed as the Mojo 61 but probably feels different as it hasn't been set up to Mojo specs. Be that as it may, it would seem to be a lot more flexible as far as running other midi instruments off of, not to say cheaper. In the event, if I finally buy the Mojo 61 I will keep everyone posted as to how workable this setup turns out to be.

 

Let me save you the trouble.

 

1) Need a two-tier keyboard stand; lower manual nowhere near the "proper" position for appropriate dual manual play. Deal breaker for most that are considering the Mojo61 lower manual.

 

2) Another power supply to carry and plug in. Not so big a deal, but one more thing to worry about, and lose/break.

 

Otherwise, sure, it's a cost savings, albeit mitigated by the possible purchase of a new stand.

[Six-string-man]

Re the extra voices on the 61 - are these the same extra voices that are availible for the dual manual Mojo?

 

AFAIK - and I stand to be corrected here - with the original Mojo, you get B3, Farfisa, Vox, Rhodes and Wurli type voices.

 

The 61 model adds acoustic piano, DX ep, clav and pipe organ.

 

 

SSM

[kenheeter]

Actually, the Mojo 61 offers Rhodes, Wurly, Acoustic piano and Clav as well as VB3II, Farfisa, Vox and pipe organs. Ken