Ultimate Leslie plug in, does it exist?

[Hobo]

Been using VB3 for years. It's great but I'm not up for getting 32lives. So bought B5. Very nice. And now with l'otary and Melda and UVI Rotary all on sale.

 

But nothing captures the thump of moving air. That bababababa sound. It's like the plugins have a "sweet" vibrato but not the tremolo of air. Am I missing something?

 

I keep hearing recordings (of the real thing) and going "that's it!" But to my ears nobody has nailed it.

 

Just been demoing all the new ones and they're all the same to my ears. Damn good but still lacking. I found the ambience knob on VB3 gets close, I guess it's because the sound I like isn't close miked ?

 

 

[Doerfler]

But nothing captures the thump of moving air.

correct.

 

Am I missing something?

no. these are substitutes. and they weigh much less.

 

want to debate mono vs. stereo? :idk

 

[Jazzmammal]

Ultimate Leslie plugin, does it exist?

 

Of course. Take a Leslie and plug it in.

 

Yeah I know. Cheap line. What these sims do very well is simulate a recorded Leslie. You can Google this, there are many touring acts who started using Vents shortly after they came out and ditched the bulky and somewhat fragile Leslies. Out front through the PA a Vent sounds perfect. In a small room where you the player can actually feel the air and hear the true wooden resonance? No, a sim is not as good. I don't know the answer, it's just physics I guess. So much is not just the sim but the speakers your playing it through.

 

Bob

[vanderSchoot]

I have a vent and small leslie 860 and prefer the latter with my HX3 for live.

What jazzmammal says is correct, a sim needs to go through an amp and since leslie cabinets are the reference , a sim has the difficult task to mimmic rotating horn and bass, but also leslie cabinet characteristics.

The amp you use has to be powerfull , clean and a broad frequency responce to make the best of the sim.

 

For recording or big venue's with a miked leslie it's a different story like others have explained.

 

One thing personally, i always become suspect when i have tons of parameters at my disposal. I'd rather have ONE fixed/limited effect that sounds freaking awesome out of the box, then tons of different parameters that no matter how many things i alter, will never sound really great.

Like the old mantra in synths..... ''factory presets always suck" , underneath the awfull presets is the best synth ever hidden.

Yeah, yeah ,...... like the developers of that specific synth aren't capable of creating a few good presets after doing all the much harder fieldwork.

[Markay]

If you expect a programmer to read your mind your are in for many years of disappointment. See movie "What Women Want", substitute self.

[Hobo]

Ultimate Leslie plugin, does it exist?

 

 

What these sims do very well is simulate a recorded Leslie.

Bob

 

Ah but that's what I'm saying. The sounds I hear are on recordings, Hammond's of the 70s etc. Not all recordings. I heard yesterday tears for fears ( I know not 70s ) "Sowing the seeds" and the hammond in that track has that sound. Everything else to my ears can fool me in a recording now from piano , Wurly, rhodes etc, but still not the Leslie'd Hammond done the way I like it.

 

Still not tried a Vent as I've been software only for nearly 15 years. Is the Vent that much better than the current crop of software sims?

[vanderSchoot]

If you expect a programmer to read your mind your are in for many years of disappointment. See movie "What Women Want", substitute self.

True !!

 

In case of fidelity, filters, dac's etc., it cannot be the case that the ''presets'' are truly bad, but the goodies will come to the surface after heavy programming.

Although i have read many comments over the years that suggest just that.

[vanderSchoot]

Everytime i hear recordings of the past with Hammonds in it, i realise they sound better than a clone set up...

Playing on clones and vents. we've fooled ourselves into believing that we are 95% there.......and not a drunk or chick in the audience will notice anyway......

So here a good reminder of what the real deal is all about :

[video:youtube]

Solo starts at 2:52

 

[wd8dky]

No, it does not exist.

[Steve Nathan]

Not to be blunt but, so you can hear the difference between the fakes and the real thing. So what. Who can't? We all can. Same with VI pianos vs real Steinways, string samples, horns, wurlys.... this chestnut of a debate has no point other than to trumpet one's discernment skills.

Not the point.

Leslie sims like string samples and modeled analogs are substitutes that solve problems, and their quality has improved greatly over the years. I don't always have a way to use my 122s so when I have no choice, I use a sim. I don't have the budget for an orchestra so I load East West. Why is this an issue? Yes, the sims aren't quite there, but they're better than ever. Wait for the perfect or use the good in the meantime.

 

[Doerfler]

Am I missing something?

no. these are substitutes.

Leslie sims like string samples and modeled analogs are substitutes that solve problems

 

starting to see a pattern here

[MathOfInsects]

Adjusting the Vent 2 so that the mic is farther from the speaker makes a nice big whuppa whuppa whuppa that my ear loves.

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

The other thing Hobo is when you listen to classic recordings what are you really hearing? Here's the signal path: Start with the Hammond console. Which model Hammond? What vintage, 50's, 60's, 70's? They all sound different. What model Leslie? 122? 147? Another model? Were the consoles and Leslies stock? Maybe, but it was very common for performers to use modded stuff. It happened a lot. How about the tubes used in the organ preamp or the power amp in the Leslie. Back in the day there were differences between different tube manufacturers. Zenith was big, so was RCA and others. All tubes were not created equal, real audio snobs only like to use matched sets.

 

Get past that then there's the recording gear. What mics? Single horn mic or two? Close in or a bit further out? Was the Leslie in a corner? That was a specific recording technique some engineers liked to do. How about the pre amps, the recording console itself, the tape deck used?

 

Finally, after all that there is post production mixing. How about adding compression, EQ, and other things? Just a touch of mid and high EQ makes the organ cut through the mix but it's not how the organ/leslie combo sounded by itself in the recording room.

 

All of that is part of the organ sound you hear. Trying to duplicate that now raises the question where do you start? Guido from Crumar calls it "chasing the ghost" of that perfect Hammond sound. The problem is every recording you really love has a different ghost which is why modern clone makers give us all these controls. Everybody has their own idea of that one great organ sound.

 

Bob

[Markay]

Steve and Bob's posts pretty much sum it up.

 

But Hobo how about posting links to a couple the recordings you consider have the "that's it" Leslie sound? Maybe others can then suggest Sims and settings they think get close to it.

[Steve Nathan]

Yeah. You want to talk about pros and cons, which sim comes the closest iyho and why, I'm there, happy to oblige. If you only want to express how nothing is good enough for you, then there's nothing left to talk about in this thread.

[Outkaster]

It's never going to be enough....the sim, the amp, the tone, we will never be satisfied because a clone, plugin will never be a console. I have up a lot on the whole clone things as someone said they are all different ghosts.

[Joe Muscara]

If it's never good enough for you, you can wait until it is and save your money in the meantime.

 

[Hobo]

I didn't mean to come over as negative in any way. My question was based on an aspect of the leslie sound that I don't hear in the sims, but that's maybe because of something I don't know about. The sweetness they all have versus the angry , thumping sound.

 

Mathofinsects sums it up with the "whuppa whuppa" - so maybe i'm after that sound where the mic is further from the source, like the ambience knob in VB3. Maybe I should go try a vent.

 

Anyway thanks for the input. I'm so happy with my sound and setup now, versus the days when I took Rhodes, Hammond clone (ELKA) and 01/w to a gig. Now I have all that in one neat package and often get trains to a gig so in no way am I complaining!

[Stokely]

Funny, I frequent some guitar/amp forums and this could easily be a thread there, just replace "leslie" with "tube amp" Right down to the "moving air", which also can be "amp in the room".

 

I see it that amp modeling/leslie modeling are chasing the recordings of the originals, they can't capture the experience in the room any more than a 2d photo can recreate what it was like to stand gazing at the Grand Tetons.

 

All I know is: compared to keyboards I played in the 80s and 90s, we are 99.3% of the way there compared to where we were (Not counting people back then who actually went around with a Leslie!). Having a B3--or any number of other sounds--on drop down menus I can change in a split second is mind-blowing to me. Now if only my skills would become just as mind-blowing ;D

[Steve Nathan]

Been using VB3 for years.

But nothing captures the thump of moving air.

 

Get ready

[Paughrock]

The other thing Hobo is when you listen to classic recordings what are you really hearing? Here's the signal path: Start with the Hammond console. Which model Hammond? What vintage, 50's, 60's, 70's? They all sound different. What model Leslie? 122? 147? Another model? Were the consoles and Leslies stock? Maybe, but it was very common for performers to use modded stuff. It happened a lot. How about the tubes used in the organ preamp or the power amp in the Leslie. Back in the day there were differences between different tube manufacturers. Zenith was big, so was RCA and others.

All tubes were not created equal, real audio snobs only like to use matched sets.

 

Get past that then there's the recording gear. What mics? Single horn mic or two? Close in or a bit further out? Was the Leslie in a corner? That was a specific recording technique some engineers liked to do. How about the pre amps, the recording console itself, the tape deck used?

 

Finally, after all that there is post production mixing. How about adding compression, EQ, and other things? Just a touch of mid and high EQ makes the organ cut through the mix but it's not how the organ/leslie combo sounded by itself in the recording room.

 

All of that is part of the organ sound you hear. Trying to duplicate that now raises the question where do you start? Guido from Crumar calls it "chasing the ghost" of that perfect Hammond sound. The problem is every recording you really love has a different ghost which is why modern clone makers give us all these controls. Everybody has their own idea of that one great organ sound.

 

Bob

 

best response I have read all year...the day I realized the above was the day I made peace with my gear...tone is in the fingers!!! . ps. try playing a gig with NO leslie sim...it is an ear-mind opener