Un-Sound Man

[WesG]

And even on powered speakers capable of tolerating phantom power due to DC blocking caps, since link in and out are usually connected, you will get a nice loud LF thump when phantom goes on/off, from the pulse edge transient. I hinted at this way back on page 1.

 

The right solution there, BTW, is not a DI IMO, but a line isolating transformer. You won't drop any signal this way, but still achieve ground lift and galvanic isolation.

 

Someone I know I'm the pro audio design scene tells me the Whirlwind products are very good. Radial also makes them.

 

Wes

 

PS - Yorkville tells me NX55P can tolerate phantom, but they do suffer from the thump issue so you should turn them off when toggling phantom. I imagine the presence of phantom lowers the life expectancy of those caps.

[J. Dan]

Before I started using a DI all the time, iAd my K10 hum LOUDLY, like practically full volume, when phantom power was on. Luckily no damage, but it happened on a few different occasions. You're in good shape if you make sure they have it off. But so,e boards don't have it defeatable on individual channels, only global. If you have any condenser mics you need it on for them to work. Since I integrated the DI in my permanent rig, I don't ever even have to think about it. The only thing I ever get from a sound guy is "hey can you flip your ground lift on the DI and see if it's better? ...yep, that's it, thanks". End of discussion.

[CEB]

What I don't know is what are the potential effects of phatom power on the rig as a whole? I use Shure WH020XLR headset mic. It is dynamic and not a condenser. It doesn't use phantom power. The mic sort of sucks but I run the mic to a Radial ABo AB switch which routes to mic to either the FOH or to the Kronos audio input for the vocoder. The switch also functions as a kill switch when I'm not on a vocoder combi.

 

I chose the dynamic mic because I don't want phantom power anywhere near my rig and I have no idea what the potential impacts of phantom power could be..... or how could I get phantom power to the mic with the Radial AB switch. I have no idea if the phatom power could cross over the Radial ABo to the Kronos or not.

[WesG]

If you play out and don't run the board, you must assume you have phantom on any female XLR sent your way.

 

Any mic intended for live use will be phantom safe. Any keyboard should be, but don't take my word for it (see also my comments about blocking cap wear).

 

The only way to ensure you are not getting phantom is with a transformer, either matching or in a DI. A transformer provides galvanic isolation.

[Reezekeys]

I have said on multiple threads here that I make sure phantom power is OFF on a channel that my QSC K8s' outputs are plugged into. I was gonna repeat myself a few posts back when I mentioned going direct from my K, but got the feeling that I was sounding like a broken record which is why I didn't say anything this time, lol. I speak from experience because I fried a Mackie SRM450 a few years back doing this.

 

Also on a previous thread I mentioned using in-line isolation transformers but they're about $45-$50 each, so at $90 or $100 for stereo I would just buy a stereo DI you get isolation plus all the other goodies a DI box brings.

 

Also, I'll acknowledge that Radials are the s&%t but IMO there are other brands out there that will suffice for most of the gigs we do. My Samson active stereo DI at $40 has served me well the few times I've needed it.

[jimmymio]

This thread makes me appreciate the fact that some new KBs are being equipped with XLR outs.

[MurMan]

This thread makes me appreciate the fact that some new KBs are being equipped with XLR outs.

Most of these do not have a ground-lift switch and don't isolate phantom power. XLR connectors are not much of a benefit.

[Joe Muscara]

I'm guessing the OP is loooooooong gone...

[J. Dan]

I'm guessing the OP is loooooooong gone...

 

When has that ever stopped anybody?

[Joe Muscara]

I'm guessing the OP is loooooooong gone...

 

When has that ever stopped anybody?

Here? Never. Just sayin'.

[MurMan]

I'm guessing the OP is loooooooong gone...

 

When has that ever stopped anybody?

Here? Never. Just sayin'.

The best way to bring back an AWOL OP is to start talking about them ...

[WesG]

Reezekeys, how do you make sure that phantom is off on the board? Are you the sound man? Does your rider stipulate a mixing desk with per-channel phantom power?

[J. Dan]

Reezekeys, how do you make sure that phantom is off on the board? Are you the sound man? Does your rider stipulate a mixing desk with per-channel phantom power?

 

Can't speak for WesG, but after it happened a couple times, I would not power up my rig until I had a chat with the sound guy and verified phantom power was off at least on my channel.

 

I rider is a great way to address this however. But that said, I would not feel very professional submitting a published technical rider that specified no phantom power. I would feel it to be my responsibility to protect against it - mostly because the sound company is often supplying at a bare minimum the drum mics, of which several would best be implemented with condensers - hi hat mic, overheads in particular. I wouldn't suggest limiting his mic offerings because of my monitor.

[MathOfInsects]

The best way to bring back an AWOL OP is to start talking about them ...

 

It also has a way of bringing in brand new posters who have never posted before, only lurked, but couldn't go on without letting you know that the original poster was treated unkindly, is kind to puppies and young children, and is considered a god in some countries and a saint in others, and that the rest of you are poopy-heads for treating that poor poster, whoever he might be, the way you did.

[J. Dan]

The best way to bring back an AWOL OP is to start talking about them ...

 

It also has a way of bringing in brand new posters who have never posted before, only lurked, but couldn't go on without letting you know that the original poster was treated unkindly, is kind to puppies and young children, and is considered a god in some countries and a saint in others, and that the rest of you are poopy-heads for treating that poor poster, whoever he might be, the way you did.

 

Sometimes the thread needs to ferment for a couple years though, then resurface out of the blue with all of the fervent rhetoric of a newbie who just read it for the first time! I've actually done this before when I was new to these forum thingies. I believe Sven may have been the first to call me out, which I deserved. He used the appropriate zombie thread graphic...you know "lives again' and all. Everyone needs to be educated on such things at some point as sort of an initiation.

[DoctorMusic]

Hi all. I am a very weary online traveler. I have been spending much time the last few weeks researching new gear information. I am updating my entire rig including amplification. I just bought a Roland FA-06. And a few days later I came to the conclusion that I needed a new cabinet immediately. Was hoping to hold off on that. I blew three voice coils in my cabinet in the last 3 months after not blowing one for 8 years. Same bands, same volume, same keyboards, etc. Go figure. So my research led me to buy a DXR12 powered mixer. I love it.

 

I use two keyboards on stage usually. I run both in mono. I need advice on a mini mixer. At least that's what I think I need. I want to use the powered cabinet as my stage monitor and I also want to send a mix of the two keyboards to the front of house. I don't need more than 4 channels. And I'd like the mixer to be under a hundred dollars. I would like something on the small side that I can put on my keyboard. The problem seems to be that the really small mixers don't seem to have aux outs or whatever I need to get a separate mix I can control on stage without affected the FOH. Or maybe I am missing something because this stuff is pretty new to me for the most part.

 

The FOH board is usually no more than 20 feet from me. I'd prefer to come out of the mixer straight into the board or do I need a direct box to send the front of house signal? Should a front of house send always be be pre fader or post fader? Or does it not matter? I'd like this set up to be as simple as possible. So the least amount of cords, splitters and direct boxes the better. But I'll do whatever it takes. I do have an old reliable Pro Co CB-1 DI. Would the simplest solution be to get a mini mixer and run the signal out to the CB-1 and split one output to my cabinet and another to the FOH? I'm not even sure if I can use both outputs on the CB-1 at once. One is a 1/4" and the other is an XLR Lo-Z. Not sure if there is any reason this would be a bad idea. I'd like to be prepared to offer the sound man a proper signal on the next gig with complete assurance it is something reasonable and suitable for him to work with.

 

I don't want a Behringer mixer.Any recommendations?

 

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. Please note that I have read this forum and many others like it for hours on end the last few weeks. So pardon me if I am posting in an inappropriate thread. And also note that if the information I am asking for has already been posted here or anywhere else I have been unable to find it. But it wasn't because I haven't tried hard.

 

 

 

[mate stubb]

You probably don't want a separate mix for FOH. You probably just want a separate level control so that you can change your stage volume without affecting the level you send the house.

 

I use a tiny Yamaha mixer that meets your price goal and sounds very clean, but it doesn't have that extra level control you want.

 

It's always best to electrically isolate your stage rig from the FOH mixer. Always. Use a direct box please.

[NewImprov]

Mackie mixers have a Control Room feature that allows you to have a volume control for your onstage monitor that is different from what you're sending to FOH. Same mix, just different level.

[MurMan]

Hi all. I am a very weary online traveler. I have been spending much time the last few weeks researching new gear information. I am updating my entire rig including amplification. I just bought a Roland FA-06. And a few days later I came to the conclusion that I needed a new cabinet immediately. Was hoping to hold off on that. I blew three voice coils in my cabinet in the last 3 months after not blowing one for 8 years. Same bands, same volume, same keyboards, etc. Go figure. So my research led me to buy a DXR12 powered mixer. I love it.

 

I use two keyboards on stage usually. I run both in mono. I need advice on a mini mixer. At least that's what I think I need. I want to use the powered cabinet as my stage monitor and I also want to send a mix of the two keyboards to the front of house. I don't need more than 4 channels. And I'd like the mixer to be under a hundred dollars. I would like something on the small side that I can put on my keyboard. The problem seems to be that the really small mixers don't seem to have aux outs or whatever I need to get a separate mix I can control on stage without affected the FOH. Or maybe I am missing something because this stuff is pretty new to me for the most part.

 

The FOH board is usually no more than 20 feet from me. I'd prefer to come out of the mixer straight into the board or do I need a direct box to send the front of house signal? Should a front of house send always be be pre fader or post fader? Or does it not matter? I'd like this set up to be as simple as possible. So the least amount of cords, splitters and direct boxes the better. But I'll do whatever it takes. I do have an old reliable Pro Co CB-1 DI. Would the simplest solution be to get a mini mixer and run the signal out to the CB-1 and split one output to my cabinet and another to the FOH? I'm not even sure if I can use both outputs on the CB-1 at once. One is a 1/4" and the other is an XLR Lo-Z. Not sure if there is any reason this would be a bad idea. I'd like to be prepared to offer the sound man a proper signal on the next gig with complete assurance it is something reasonable and suitable for him to work with.

 

I don't want a Behringer mixer.Any recommendations?

 

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. Please note that I have read this forum and many others like it for hours on end the last few weeks. So pardon me if I am posting in an inappropriate thread. And also note that if the information I am asking for has already been posted here or anywhere else I have been unable to find it. But it wasn't because I haven't tried hard.

 

Welcome to the forum, Doc. It's interesting that of all the threads in all the forums in all of the Internet you would walk in here on your first try. Someone here was just talking about bringing in new posters, so I guess it's not too surprising.

 

You will be happy to hear that you are surrounded by other weary online travelers who also spend much time researching new gear.

 

However, as you seemed to suspect, you have landed in the wrong thread. The purpose of this thread is to complain about sound guys, bad attitudes, and DI boxes. We're currently in the post-mortem phase of this thread and are just about ready to close it out. Perhaps if you could blame the sound guy for switching on phantom power and blowing your three voice coils, the thread could be resurrected and someone here might answer your questions.

 

Another approach would be to start a new topic. This would notify the forum librarian, Mr. S. Golly, who would be happy to help you search for answers pertaining to small mixers.

 

Again, welcome and good luck!

 

[yamoho]

Well, in the interest of trying to keep the thread alive just a little longer, let me ask this (has to do with DI boxes, OK, but part will be OT since it pertains to the stereo vs mono issue): At church, I run stereo out of my keyboard to an amp with stereo inputs which I use as my monitor, and the amp has a single XLR output that goes to FOH. There is usually ground hum, which the sound guy has varying degress of success in lowering. What would be the best config in this situation to remedy the hum? (I won't ask about stereo vs mono...)

 

thanx

[Markay]

Well the OP may have departed in a fit of hubris but I like the quiet life now and bring my own mixer and DI. I give the sound guy a mono feed out of my DI post mixer. It is a Behringer and if the channel has phantom power on the power light glows red so I can politely ask him to turn phantom power off on my channel.

 

My observation is that there is little variation in guitar, drum and vocal FOH requirements between bands. Everyone has a different keyboard setup. I could almost guarantee that each time a sound guy has to accommodate keys the player is using a different rig, no wonder they think we are 'special'.

 

I figure I make real it easy by presenting him with an XLR mono out. Any hum is his issue after I have flicked the ground lift.

 

Welcome DrMusic, I use a Behringer X1204 small format mixer, lowest cost, quality mixer on the market that gives a 2nd independent out for your monitor needs without affecting the FOH send.

 

[Reezekeys]

Reezekeys, how do you make sure that phantom is off on the board? Are you the sound man? Does your rider stipulate a mixing desk with per-channel phantom power?

I use my K8s only for local hits at small clubs or weddings/corporate stuff, occasionaly a street fair or town concert none of these are at the level where there's any rider (or a rider that I would see). I just have a conversation with the sound person. I can usually tell if it's total amateur hour or not, and in that case I'll check out the board myself. if there's any doubt I tell them to use DIs.

[Reezekeys]

At church, I run stereo out of my keyboard to an amp with stereo inputs which I use as my monitor, and the amp has a single XLR output that goes to FOH. There is usually ground hum, which the sound guy has varying degress of success in lowering. What would be the best config in this situation to remedy the hum?

This might do the job although there might still be a ground loop because your amp is on the same circuit as the FOH system. If the sound man has a DI you could try that instead of the XLR output of your amp just use one of the two outputs.

[MurMan]

This might do the job although there might still be a ground loop because your amp is on the same circuit as the FOH system. If the sound man has a DI you could try that instead of the XLR output of your amp just use one of the two outputs.

This should eliminate any ground loop as long as all of your on-stage gear is running off the same circuit.

 

Reezekeys - One of the Amazon reviewers said that the transformer can saturate at high levels. If this is true, it's adding a lot of distortion. Have you listened carefully to your sound in the house with your monitors muted? And do you need to keep the levels low that you send through the Whirlwind?

[Reezekeys]

I don't use those! I just know their purpose, that they electrically isolate the audio feed, which is why I thought they'd help with instances of ground loop hum. You're right that high levels can saturate a transformer, I didn't think of that issue when I was replying.

[MathOfInsects]

http://davidlansing.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Kenya-zebra-herd.jpg

[WesG]

Can't speak for WesG, but after it happened a couple times, I would not power up my rig until I had a chat with the sound guy and verified phantom power was off at least on my channel.

 

And what do you do when he brought a sound board that only turns phantom on/off globally? That is VERY common! You have four choices at that point

 

1. Insist he turn off phantom power, killing any condenser mics (goodbye drum overheads)

2. Go home

3. Plug in an isolating transformer or DI

4. Tolerate phantom

 

My choices are generally 3 or 4. Usually 4. If I choose 4, I make him promise not to toggle phantom - and I use equipment I KNOW has appropriate blocking capacitors.

 

Reezekeys - re. ISOXL - I got mixed up when I said Whirlwind earlier. I should have said RapcoHorizon. An online friend involved in the design of the Rapco product recommended them to me; you can count on them working well and not saturating under sane operating conditions. I intend to buy a few at some point. Transformers are the very best way to isolate yourself from sound-guy/venue problems.

 

Jimmymio - XLR outs do not solve any of the issues in this thread.

 

Doctormusic - skip the mixer and use the line in jack on your FA-06.

 

Yamoho - IMO you are nuts combining stereo signals like that. Just drop the right side and give your level a bump. And if your hum is ground-loop related, a RapcoHorizon ISOBLOX should take care of it.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Rapco-Horizon-ISOBLOX-Transformer-Isolation/product-reviews/B003MLBEW2/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=recent

 

Wes

[MathOfInsects]

It sounds like there is stereo to mono summing in that amp, so the signal path should actually be fine, correct?

 

I use the Mackie Mix8. Well under $100, decent pre (though I rarely use a mic with it), CR and Main outs. If I could change anything, it would be to move the aux send and return path pre-mix.

 

 

 

 

[WesG]

Stereo to mono summing is electrically fine, but my concern is phasing issues on stereo samples.

 

[cphollis]

Well, I've resisted joining this thread until now.

 

I'm all about outcomes, not about how we get there.

 

In the corporate world, being completely focused on outcomes separate the players from the wannabes.

 

I can only assume that the same holds true in the gigging world. What was the outcome? Were people happy and spend a lot of $$$ as a result?

 

Sorry to be so craven, but that's how the world works.