Windows 7 MIDI device limit - specifically Korg nanoPAD2

[ElmerJFudd]

Hi, guys.

 

Stumped today. I picked up a Korg nanoPAD2 to try out for beat entry on my Windows 7 64bit machine.

 

I'm logged in as local admin.

 

Installed the driver and control software. The device is getting power, Device Manager sees the nanoPAD2 (Sound, video and game controllers/KORG nanoPAD2 "This device is working properly", Driver Version 1.15.14.1

 

The nanoPAD2 is getting power.

 

Korg has a USB-MIDI Driver configuration utility.

File version:

User mode driver: 1.15.00.03

Kernel mode driver: 1.07.00.01

It sees the nanoPAD2 and lists it as #1

There is an advanced option to suppress device number in the port name of the first device. But I have tried this checked and unchecked, no difference.

 

The Korg Kontrol Editor does not see a nanoPAD2 connected.

 

Any MIDI software I may try to use, Kontakt, ProTools, Reaper, doesn't matter. They do not see a MIDI device connected.

 

I wondered if it was the 10 MIDI device limitation left over from XP in Win7 64bit. But I am not clear on how to rectify this since it seems you don't do this through REGEDIT any longer.

 

I tried showing hidden devices in the DEVICE MANAGER, but it's only showing 6 devices, and the Korg nanoPAD2 only has one entry and it's active, not grayed out.

 

Ideas? I'm peeved.

 

Works fine on my OSX machines by the way. But that's not where I need it at the moment.

 

 

[Markyboard]

Are you trying to use the editor while Reaper or other software has control of the USB port?

[ElmerJFudd]

Nope, definitely not. Nothing else running. I can't get anything to see this supposedly working device and driver.

[Markyboard]

Sorry, don't wan to be playing 64 questions but I assume you're plugged into a standard USB2.0 port, not a half baked 3.0 port?

[ElmerJFudd]

That's a good question. It's a DELL 3000 series Precision workstation. I'll try the ports on the back of the unit, working on the 4 up front, at least 2 of these are USB 3.0.

[Markay]

Also try a different, preferably new, USB cable.

[ElmerJFudd]

Not cable, brought it home to try on the family iMac.

Driver installs, device is recognized, control/editor software sees the nanoPAD2 and I can send/receive scenes. No problems.

 

Could it be related to the driver not being "signed" on Win7?

[Baldwin Funster]

 

Could it be related to the driver not being "signed" on Win7?

 

I have used a nanokontrol and the Kong editor on my win 7 dell laptop. You definitely have to have the nano hooked up before you launch the editor but it works fine.

[ElmerJFudd]

Not working here, and I can't find the problem. Same cable and nanoPAD2 is recognized and functioning on OSX. I'm able to communicate with the Editor and firmware updater and music making apps. But on Win7 Device Manager says the driver is there and functioning but the Editor doesn't see it, nor the firmware updater nor music making software.

[Markay]

So the only thing left is to try a new cable.

 

I have never had cable issue on OSX machines, I have had USB cable issues with Win 7.

 

One was with a Canon Camera utility which worked perfectly in XP but would not communicate with the same Canon software running in Win 7. Canon support said replace the Canon supplied USB cable with a new generic USB cable.

 

I didn't believe this could be the issue, USB is just USB right?

 

But I did it anyway against my better judgement and guess what - worked perfectly and still does in Win 10.

 

Obviously there are no guarantees that this is the issue here, but it is such a cheap simple option that might just solve the problem.

 

 

[Kawai James]

Elmer, it might be worth trying this:

 

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/usb-problems-issues-windows-7

 

or this:

 

http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/usb_devices_view.html

 

Cheers,

James

x

[Markyboard]

Same Problem Here

 

Scroll to the bottom where he wrote:

 

Well, it WAS the 10 limit (although I show more than 10, even with devices deleted). But that fixed it.

But, I had to use the Korg MIDI uninstaller program to delete devices.

 

 

 

[Markay]

Mark, the 10 midi device limit was mentioned HERE with Miden's comments on how to uninstall.

 

It was linked in a later post by you where you mentioned you had 14 midi instances with Reaper!!

[Markyboard]

Your right Mark- good thing I bookmarked that link

But I do believe this is Elmer's problem.

 

I'm still confused on the supposed 10 midi port limit. Does a usb input/output count as 1 port no matter how many channels you use? What about a USB multi-port device like the MOTU MTP-AV where you can have 8 I/O ports?

 

Like I said it appears that I'm well exceeding any 10 port limit

[ElmerJFudd]

I have run into the 10 MIDI port issue on XP often. What we used to do was use regedit to go in and delete duplicate ports. Windows does this bizarre thing where every time you attach a device (even the same device - possibly on new USB port?) it creates an entry in registry and wherever else and when you get to 10 you can't use the device, even if it seemingly installs correctly.

 

I'm not clear on what the best method for dealing with this on Windows 7 is. I've read from googling that the regedit trick doesn't work anymore. Apparently you can use device manager now to show inactive ports? or invisible ports to delete them. But my Windows image is fresh and it's only showing 6 MIDI devices (5 from the internal sound card) and 1 from the nanoPAD2.

[ElmerJFudd]

OK, problem solved. It is in fact the 10 MIDI device limit left over from Windows XP still in Windows 7. In this instance, not related to the driver being unsigned.

 

Here's the skinny. For some reason in Windows XP and 7 you are limited to 10 USB devices in the registry, and Windows will place multiple instances of the same device counting as 1, 2 3 or all 10 devices - I think it might be related to if you use the MIDI device on a different USB port but I have not gone through the agony of proving that theory. Anyway, once you reach 10, your driver might install correctly, and Device Manager might tell you it's working properly, but no software can use it without a spot in this list of 10.

 

So, yes. Markyboard, the link you dug up is correct. You have to use the Korg driver Uninstaller that installs with your first attempt at a driver install. What Korg has done here is to include a utility with the driver uninstaller that allows you to delete multiple instances in the registry list. Or actually, it lets you delete everything if you like. After doing this. You reinstall the Korg drivers and the nanoPAD2 gets a proper place in the list.

 

Totally lame behavior in the Windows OS, I hope it's fixed in 8 on, I haven't played with music on Win8 or Win10 yet. It's even lamer that Windows silicon developers from RME to Roland have to place how-to's on manually fixing the registry or, in the case of Korg, code their own registry cleaner utility that they need to include with the driver install.

[Markyboard]

Glad you got it working. Ah the wonders of Windows.

[pjd]

Hi --

 

Saw this too late to help you, but I ran into the same problem with my Korg Triton Taktile:

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/triton-taktile-more-thoughts/

 

I had to wipe out the inactive MIDI drivers with the Korg USB driver uninstall utility before Windows 7 would recognize the TT. Arg! It's 2016AD Microsoft!?!

 

I mentioned this utility to the customer support folks at Yamaha, who were grateful to hear about it. :-)

 

All the best -- pj

 

Music technology blog: http://www.sandsoftwaresound.net/

 

 

[Al Coda]

The issue is well known for Win 7 since 2013 ...

 

clonk

 

the article contains the solution too.

 

A.C.

[ElmerJFudd]

I know that article, A.C. One of the first ones that came up when I started googling for a solution. Further up in the thread I explain that the method didn't work. Going through Device Manager my clean Windows install only showed 6 MIDI devices. None of them inactive or corrupt or not in use and no duplicates. The only thing that was effective was the Korg utility.

 

Side Note: Korg support has not gotten back to me yet. 3 days. I'll reply here one last time when they do.

 

Hi --

 

Saw this too late to help you, but I ran into the same problem with my Korg Triton Taktile:

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/triton-taktile-more-thoughts/

 

I had to wipe out the inactive MIDI drivers with the Korg USB driver uninstall utility before Windows 7 would recognize the TT. Arg! It's 2016AD Microsoft!?!

 

I mentioned this utility to the customer support folks at Yamaha, who were grateful to hear about it. :-)

 

All the best -- pj

 

Music technology blog: http://www.sandsoftwaresound.net/

 

 

Thanks., PJ. Heck, I am going to keep the Korg driver around just for this utility for when the I hit the limit again.

[miden]

Just a heads up - it is still an issue even in W10

 

And yes everytime you plug an exisiting device (even if drivers are present) into a NEW usb port, W treats it as an additional device. So if you swap ports often, you'll run out PDQ haha!

[ElmerJFudd]

Good to know! What the heck.

[Markyboard]

Is the limit on midi devices or usb devices? Does this limit apply even hooking up non-midi related usb devices ? Tbh Im not sure what we're talking about when we say midi devices. But personally I would refer to a midi device as any that show up in a DAW input/output list. So a multi port device that has 8 midi inputs and 8 midi outputs has 1 usb port and 8 midi devices.

 

What are we talking about again?

[miden]

MIDI devices - you can have as many USB devices as you want and W will always see them fine. It is the way W OS treats MIDI ports (assigned to a USB port) under the Sound Controllers drivers. And this is a max of 10. Does not seem to affect actual audio devices though.

 

I was really hoping (with the marked improvement in WASAPI) that they would have fixed this silly MIDI limit, but no. To be fair afaik, it (the code) WAS written back when most people (who had actually heard of MIDI) only had a few devices, but these days it is not really acceptable.

[Baldwin Funster]

This is just the kind of thing that I would forget after awhile, then come to this forum and post then get directed to a 2 year old thread......

[Markyboard]

MIDI devices - you can have as many USB devices as you want and W will always see them fine. It is the way W OS treats MIDI ports (assigned to a USB port) under the Sound Controllers drivers. And this is a max of 10. Does not seem to affect actual audio devices though.

 

Understood - thanks!

[Markay]

Interesting that when the Korg drivers mindlessly install time after time irrespective of the number of existing midi devices already installed the consequences are blamed on MS.

 

The max 10 midi device limit in Windows has been around for over 15 years. Apart from low level recognition of midi over USB MS provides no other support and pulled midimapper over 10 years ago.

 

MS leaves it up to midi device manufacturers to develop, maintain and enhance their own drivers, and uninstallers.

 

The fact that the MI industry chooses not to write code that first checks for installed midi devices and alerts the user if the 10 limit has been reached, offers the user option to select an installed device and uninstall it before proceeding, is just down to a slack user unfriendly approach to its customers.

 

This extends to MI manufacturers of devices that were sold in the recent past with Win 7 drivers and which the manufacturer will not certify or release revised drivers for Win 10.

 

[Markyboard]

The fact that the MI industry chooses not to write code that first checks for installed midi devices and alerts the user if the 10 limit has been reached, offers the user option to select an installed device and uninstall it before proceeding, is just down to a slack user unfriendly approach to its customers.

 

This extends to MI manufacturers of devices that were sold in the recent past with Win 7 drivers and which the manufacturer will not certify or release revised drivers for Win 10.

 

Interesting. This seems to imply non-music usb equipment manufacturers do handle this appropriately. Yet what I think I read and understood earlier was that the 10 device limit exists only for midi related equipment, whether duplicate entries exist or not. But there is no limit for other non-music type equipment.

 

Did I get this wrong?

[Markyboard]

Another question. From the link provided

 

 

However, on the Cakewalk forums, I found a very simple batch process that lets you see hidden devices in Device Manager. Simply type the following in Notepad and save it as a .BAT file (e.g., Hidden.BAT):

 

set devmgr\_show\_nonpresent\_devices=1

 

start Devmgmt.msc

 

 

 

Righty-click on the .BAT file, then choose Run as administrator from the context menu; this opens Device Manager. Go View > Show hidden devices, then open Sound, Video, and Game Controllers. A little speaker icon to the left of each item will be solid if the device is connected, and grayed out if not.

 

I don't understand why the batch file is needed. Seems like you can just select show hidden devices and the duplicates will show. At least on my Win 10 system this is the case. Mine does show duplicate entries for both my MTP-AVs.

 

BTW now that I understand what 10 midi devices means I am not over the limit - even with the duplicates; As long as we're not including audio only devices.

 

 

[Markay]

Taking a step back from midi, we can plug many USB devices in for example, thumbdrives, external storage, printers, cameras, and never run into issues.

 

I think the issue with USB midi is that some companies, like Korg, are writing drivers that are 'persistent' and don't release or allow uninstall, unless a utility like the Korg uninstall utility is used.

 

Thinking a little outside the box $5 thumb drives often come with drivers and security pre-installed. Often when I insert a thumb drive which hasn't been used for a while Windows will reinstall the drivers for it and activate the security if active on the drive.

 

There is no reason why midi devices could not also have the driver resident in ROM to re-install if it has not been connected for a while and the driver has been 'flushed' by Windows.

 

The midi driver could include code that self flushes if the device is not connected for say 30 days.

 

The driver on the midi device could also be flashed in the rare event a later version is released.

 

Like you the only reason I can think of to explain why midi devices cannot be managed in Device Manager is that the 3rd party drivers are not compliant with the device manager protocols.