Mic'ed piano vs vst for recording

[Redknife]

I'm looking for opinions on where to exert effort for solo piano recording. I am satisfied with one of the Kronos or Kurzweil pianos for live performance in a group. I have the Pianoteq vst and its OK. Obviously there are a lot of factors and predispositions when it comes to piano sounds. I've listened to samples of other products and liked the 8dio and Ravenscroft. I was about to get the Ravenscroft for recording but I'm now wondering if I should just spend the effort on mic'ing and processing the actual grand piano. I get frustrated with the dynamic limitations in the electronic versions. Of course getting a great sound on the recorded grand can be tricky as well, thus the question:

Exert effort and money on piano virtual instruments until I'm satisfied or mic/process the grand?

 

Although any input is welcome, I'm less interested in which vst to choose than vst versus mic'ed grand. I would probably upgrade my mics if I focus more on recording the real piano so it would potentially involve money and time either way. Don't want to do both if I can avoid it. This would be home studio but I would welcome pro studio input. Thoughts?

[timwat]

What I keep hearing (I've asked very similar set of questions) is:

 

Unless you have a well-maintained piano and an engineer who knows how mic it to get the best out of it, you may be better off using a very-high-quality VST.

 

But there are still studios that have both of the above, and studio pricing has gotten more and more negotiable (aka, "reasonable") with the glut of home recording and project studio alternatives.

 

If however, you're planning on doing completely exposed, front-row piano for a major commercial release...well, then you'd already have budgeted for the great piano and proven results anyway.

 

 

[Steve Nathan]

Is the "real" piano in question the C7 listed in your sig?

If your C7 is a good sounding one, I suspect you will be happier with your recording if you use it. There are a number of reasonably priced mikes that are quite good on that piano, and it's not that hard to find placements and go from there. Of course, these days you can buy a truly decent virtual piano for the price of one tuning!

[DulceLabs.com]

If it's a solo piano project, I would be inclined to stick it out and use a real piano. I think you will be much more satisfied with the process and end product.

[miden]

Although the one (huge??) advantage of using the VST version is it can also record the MIDI data, which makes editing errors and timing a doddle compared to trying to manipulate audio for the same purpose. Means you won't necessarily need to do a gazillion "takes" to get the part down.

[PianoMan51]

Don't forget that the good sounding piano with good mics and a good engineer need to be in a 'good'-sounding room. I find using a VST for commercial (even solo) projects to be much easier and more reliable. Of course, for artistic projects, that's another story...

[woodtus]

I am trying to think of any solo piano album that I have heard that has been recorded with a digital piano, but there isn't one. There are good reasons for this.

 

[MorayM]

As this is a solo piano project, the focus should be on your performance - so make your decision based on that first. Which combination will you perform best on?

[Redknife]

Is the "real" piano in question the C7 listed in your sig?

If your C7 is a good sounding one, I suspect you will be happier with your recording if you use it.

 

Right the C7 - it's in good shape and sounds great. Since you mentioned it, do you have some mics that you like to use for that piano?

 

ETA: my plan was 2 Akg c414's but I have not purchased them.

[Redknife]

Helpful thoughts- thanks all.

[WesG]

As an addendum to MorayM's thought -- do you FEEL differently playing the C7 vs. a VST? People can hear how you feel. That's actually the point of music.

 

 

[Bobadohshe]

If you really have a C7 there should be no contest.

[Redknife]

As an addendum to MorayM's thought -- do you FEEL differently playing the C7 vs. a VST? People can hear how you feel. That's actually the point of music.

 

 

Very relevant thoughts. I have been wed at the hip to the c7 for a long time and can connect with the instrument and other people as second nature. For me, it's not the same with a piano vst. The VSTs feel sterile to me in isolation and I just can't convey what I can with the grand piano.

 

We can learn from our experience but it can also constrain us. When I was doing freelance studio gigs in the late 80's/early 90's, the studio audio engineers I worked with favored an electronic piano that they could tweak to their liking. These were low budget gigs, I was paid to do a job and did it happily on whatever equipment they wanted. My primary studio projects were synth based in bands. Those experiences have framed my thinking for good and bad.

I did record the C7 in home for some paid things like radio segues but I had an engineer record the piano with his equipment.

Anyway, great thoughts to break my head spinning.

 

 

 

[Steve Nathan]

Right the C7 - it's in good shape and sounds great. Since you mentioned it, do you have some mics that you like to use for that piano?

 

ETA: my plan was 2 Akg c414's but I have not purchased them.

 

 

What kind of music is it?

 

[Redknife]

Original. Jazz. Influences Jarrett, Corea, Evans

[Steve Nathan]

414s are popular, but I always found them to be a little bright. When I can't have the 251s I love, I have been surprisingly happy with an inexpensive mike from Studio Projects. There C1 has a remarkably friendly response curve for acoustic piano, and costs a fraction of the 414's heftier tag. There are a number of "in-between" priced options as well, but I've been blown away by the C1s. They are definitely "bang for buck" winners, but I also think they compete with much higher priced choices. With the money you save, you may be able to buy a decent mike pre as well.

 

[timwat]

I would think especially when we start talking mic choices and decent mic preamps, budget becomes an important factor. Chris, do you have one in mind?

[MathOfInsects]

I love my SP C1. A surprisingly responsive mic for the price. I think they have a mid-budget offering now as well.

 

In general, if you're going to splurge on one item and save an other, splurge on the pre and save on the mic.

[Redknife]

I would think especially when we start talking mic choices and decent mic preamps, budget becomes an important factor. Chris, do you have one in mind?

 

3000 total or less would be my preference for the mics and preamps. I have wiggle room if there is a real incremental benefit to overshoot. To round out the details I'll be running through an Allen Heath qu-16 mixer and then to the Mac DAW.

[emenelton]

The 414 comes in a flat and a raised treble.

Also consider

Small Diaphragm mics

People like Omnis but for your room Cardioid might be better.

 

Cardiod SD

Sennheiser MKH8040 Recommended $1200 ea

Schoeps MK22

DPA prefered OMNI

 

These mics tend to cost 1.5 to 2x's what the 414's do

[Dave Ferris]

I really went deep into research on mics and preamps years ago when I was into recording my D. These days I could care less about recording..in fact I'm almost anti-recording.

 

On my best sounding home recordings I borrowed various pres- DW Fearn , John Hardy, Forssell , BAE. I also used my hot rodded Audio Upgrades/ Jim Williams Soundcraftt Delta console quite a bit too.

 

After experimenting with several pairs of mics I settled on the DPA 4011s by recommendation of LA engineer Rich Breen. Glad I got in touch with Rich.

 

Immediately the quality of the recordings went up a good 40% using the DPAs.. Even I couldn't screw things up .. I'd just put 'em up close to the hammers and strings and they'd sound good. Also took my room acoustics out of the equation.

 

I think my recordings are decent. The piano sounds great being a good D. Mics are good. The playing is... well. Certainly I would have had better sonic results hiring an engineer to come in , place the mics and do a better job of EQing and gain staging. But for what it is - just something to stick up on my Soundcloud page and give people an idea of what I do, it's fine.

[Mark Schmieder]

Given that there are specialist mics for pianos, you might do better to rent such a mic setup just for this recording date. Along with that though, you might want to find someone relatively local who has experience with this. Recording piano is VERY challenging and only a handful of people in the USA do it REALLY well.

[emenelton]

It really is a money soak - big time.

 

google dpa 4011 vs mk4

 

The funny thing about the Sennheiser MKH8040 is it's so cheap at $1200 ea and is arguably among the best.

 

Hiring a pro is really good advice.

 

 

[CEB]

My never ending, seldom starting project to do the complete works of Joplin is all VSTs. It is easier and sound surprisingly good.

 

Horowitz did at least one two albums in his living room on his D. One is a soundtrack from really cool movie. There is this one.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Vladimir-Horowitz-at-home/dp/B000V8FURY/ref=pd_sim_340_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1F62QND6Z5GJCCBNC4XP

 

 

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hwLYZd6iyA

[JeffLearman]

As this is a solo piano project, the focus should be on your performance - so make your decision based on that first. Which combination will you perform best on?

Excellent point. We've heard a lot of mediocre recordings of excellent performances, and most of us would vastly prefer that to an excellent recording of a mediocre performance!

 

I suggest that if you're serious about miking your piano, plan to record a number of easy pieces and definitely NOT your intended piece, until you're happy with your recordings (especially, compared to VST recordings). This way you avoid burning yourself out on the important performance. Or record practice sessions, whatever. Just be prepared to do a LOT of recording sessions before you're ready to get serious recoding the piece.

 

I've heard that a pair of Joe Meek small diaphragm condensers do a great job of recording a piano.

 

We could discuss it here, or perhaps open a new thread to discuss grand piano miking techniques. I suggest you google and read a lot, but THEN ask us whether what you read is BS or not!

 

I'm a fan of one-point stereo miking, to avoid phase cancellation problems. If the recording doesn't sound good when you monitor in mono, then it won't sound good in a number of other cases (some places in the room, through a doorway, etc.)

 

Furthermore, I like close-miking, to get the most out of the piano and the least interference from the room, plus the intimacy provided by close miking.

 

That said, one-point stereo close miking has its drawbacks. Different mike techniques allow capturing a better range of the instrument timbre; placing mikes to capture different areas of the soundboard, for a richer, fuller tone. Also, room miking (either miking from farther away, such as audience perspective, or else adding two more mikes, often a one-point stereo pair, farther back in the room) can add a more realistic experience.

 

Of course, good convolution models ("impulse files") from major venues can be used to digitally add a room that might end up sounding a lot better than your room. Unless your room is unusually large for a home studio, or unless your piano sounds particularly spectacular in your room, you might want to avoid trying to capture the room and add that digitally or just leave it out.

 

A lot depends on the quality of the sound of your room! In addition, there's a lot you can do to a room to help craft the sound you want. Rooms are generally too live, so we use gobo's, hang heavy soft stuff on the walls, or lean mattresses. But we don't want to cover all the hard surfaces; a truly dead room sounds ... truly dead! (BTDT.)

 

There are a number of different stereo mike setups, too: X/Y, A/B, spaced pair, ORTF, and even HRTF (but don't go HRTF unless you want listeners to stick with headphones). Plus hybrids of the above.

 

The other huge variable is mic positioning. Personally, I'd select a simple stereo technique like X/Y, hunt for the ideal pair position, and then experiment with different stereo techniques. If I ended up picking a different technique, then I might hunt again for the best location (and then try other techniques, maybe!)

 

When comparing, be sure to regulate the volume so that you're always comparing two samples at the same volume. Otherwise, the louder one sounds much better than it should. Use the same piece, one you can play very consistently, but also one that in a short interval displays a good range of dynamics, frequencies, and techniques. The one used in the piano shootout might be a good example; anyone remember which piece that is?

 

If your head isn't spinning when considering miking a piano, then you're doing it wrong!

 

Oh, another suggestion. If you can, get one decent recording in the can using a software piano. Then launch on your piano miking expedition. Periodically along the way, check back and see if you're heading in a fruitful direction.

 

My guess is you'll prefer your performance on the C7, but it'll be a while before you like the sound of the recordings as much. I often guess wrong, though, and maybe you'll hit it right quickly!

 

If you know a good engineer and can afford a few bills, don't hesitate to hire one to help with equipment selection and placement. Pay by the hour (as usual) and make it clear he's training you, not just doing the job, before starting. Many engineers would almost pay to have someone listen to them explain this stuff, but some would rather scratch their eyes out.

 

Finally, don't believe anything I say. Find out for yourself. I'm just a guy on a forum. Actually, I'm really a dog, but on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

[JeffLearman]

Oh, mic preamps matter too.

 

For decent preamps on a budget, consider Studio Projects VTB1. 10 years ago I got two for the price of one today.

 

Renting is also a good idea. If you like what you rent, you can always buy the same stuff. Cheaper than the C7, for sure!

[Steve Nathan]

The Studio Projects VTB1 mike pre is a nice little box for some things, but not piano (imho). The Joe Meek TwinQ is a nice piece (I've had one for years), but again, not my first choice for piano. The distributor of both (PMI Audio) may still sell Malcom Toft's EC1. This was a sleeper that didn't really catch on, but was really elegant on real piano. I have a pair of them too, and love them paired with those inexpensive mikes I mentioned SP C1s).

With your budget, I think you have some good choices. Take a look at (the lesser known) Miktek 201, which is terrific and available for less than $1500.

Miktek

 

 

[Steve Nathan]

Of course, with all that said, I will admit that more often than not these days, I will load up Ravenscroft, Hammersmith or Acoustic Samples C7 rather than call the tuner and move the mikes.

It is more immediate, is always in tune, is editable and doesn't bother the neighbors

On the other hand, I am not doing "Solo Jazz Piano" so my original opinion sticks.

[Redknife]

Nice depth and breadth of info in the replies, all valuable in terms of perspective, directional advice, and gear (even went down the Horowitz rabbit hole). I need to research preamps some more now that I have a different perspective. Will check out all the other equipment mentioned. As far as preamps, the Miktek 201 looks like a quality piece with just the right features. I am reading about other preamps in the price range such as the Millenia (HV-3c) but the Miktek appears to hold up well spec- and feature-wise.

 

[Dave Ferris]

I rented the Millennia and much preferred the Forssell SMP-2 I borrowed from a friend. Had more body and just a nicer sound while still giving that *clean* vibe that everyone goes to the Millennia or George Massenburg stuff for.

http://www.forsselltech.com/products/1/#

Fred mainly sells direct but you can also get them from Craig Calistro / Calistro Music in Orange, Ct. If you go with Craig, tell him I sent you.

 

In fact Craig is a good piano player himself. He has an old re-built D and uses the Forssell , and I think he switched over to the Schoeps mics from the DPAs. He's a good guy to talk to about all this stuff too.

 

For one Grammy engineer , the Gordon Model 5 , is considered the Holy Grail of clean pres. The maker, Grant Carpenter, is in Nashville and will literally talk to you for 90 minutes about pre amps. I personally have not used it. Was very close to ordering one and trying it out, but then I pretty much lost interest in the whole *recording process*.

http://www.gordonaudio.com/index.htm

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/reviews/704630-gordon-model-5-a.html

 

The DW Fearn VT-2 definitely had the most detail out of everything I used . Just had the coloration that goes with tube pres and not the clarity of the Forssell. Still , coupled with the DPA 4011s, a stunning sound on my D.

 

With the Forssell

 

And DW Fearn

https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris/tones-for-jones-bones-corea