Stereo amps and powered speakers -do players here prefer it?

[dsetto]

...points taken and will be more careful in the future.

Awesome!

this thread turned out to be hugely helpful ...

to the community, now that the SSv3 has been infiltrating.

 

Here's 2nd-hand info that I learned from sleepngbear's perspective. One of the various things he needed fulfilled was hearing what the room was hearing, while having his duo PA right beside him in tight quarters. He read on the SSv3 thread that in that scenario, the SSv3 wouldn't work as well for him, as what he heard would both likely be different than what the room heard, and wouldn't be it's more flattering side. I.e., that the SSv3 needs to bloom. He had other PA duo needs & personalities to satisfy as well. I am completely reciting what I read. None of this is from personal experience. I suspect this is in the thread. The man behind the SSv3 seems like an amazing gracious fellow; besides a bit of an acoustic genius. He'll respond to an inquiry on the SSv3 thread. I saw that some folks were using these lightweight "planks"; this may have been to address this issue. They cut them to size to fit in the SSv3 case. I'm a fan of big bottom. TimWat got a lightweight GK sub in the sub $400 zone to accompany it.

[spazzkey]

I bought mine sight unseen, unheard and have never looked back - as far as I am concerned, even though as someone mentioned, it is only an amp - it makes the whole stereo vs mono discussion moot...

 

hoping the same for me, haven't seen or heard one and should have it in 3 weeks maybe? You changed your profile name, Klaus, but your location is still the same. Lucky you.

 

yeah, definitely lucky, although sometimes I do feel like I'm more in your location Dave, not that they are necessarily mutually exclusive... and the other day I felt like I was spazzing out at the keys and I flashed on my new handle - kind of like the sound of it... reminiscent of Boris the chess great, but fitting for me... we'll see how it feels down the line

[JeffLearman]

Short answer: stereo sounds way better, but you may have to know a bit more to make it work.

 

BTW, making mono sound good takes more work than most people think. Most people just take the summed output of their keyboard and think that's the best mono sound. I suggest that for all your main patches, you should compare the summed output with taking just one side. IMHO, I generally prefer just one side, since in most cases, summing stereo imaging effects to mono just adds mud.

 

The special case is a stereo piano, especially ones that are player perspective and panned widely, with high notes significantly to the right and low ones significantly to the left. (I'm not a fan of this, but some nice pianos have it and I wouldn't kick them out for it.)

 

Whenever I use my Nord Electro in mono, I use only the non-summed output, because a stereo Leslie summed to mono sounds like crap. It's pretty much the worst case for summing.

 

My point is, you don't know what sounds best on the gear and patches you use until you try it. You may find a few surprises.

 

Still, mono has fewer issues to manage than stereo. Stereo sounds way better, though! Folks who go on about the "sweet spot" don't seem to realize that you don't have to be in the sweet spot for stereo to sound good, when it's used correctly, and for most stereo effects on modern digital keyboards. What they say is definitely true when playing material like commercial CDs, though, so I can see where they're coming from.

[JeffLearman]

From my understanding (and I may be wrong), the SS3 does not produce "True" stereo, but more precisely a simulated stereo effect.

So far, you're wrong. L+R is one way to encode stereo; "Mid Side" is another way to encode stereo. The two signals have identical information. Either both or neither is "simulated", except to the extent that "stereo" is a rather 2-dimensional simulation of a much richer 3D audio reality (and let's not go there today).

 

Meaning that not everyone in the audience would hear the left side of the piano on the left and the right side on the right. Or if there was a sound that panned across from left to right, you may not hear that on stage (or in the audience).

However, that part is true. It's also true using the usual L/R stereo, whenever you can't have the classic ideal left-right setup (which is nearly half the time, frankly).

 

Get the idea of simulation out of your head; it's misleading. The difference between SS3 and traditional stereo isn't the signal encoding, it's what happens in the room, mostly due to reflections. (SS3 site quite often says that the SS3 should be near a wall or walls, for best effect.)

 

I'm surprised that it sounds good and stereo outside. My guess is that, outside, whenever you're dead in front of the front speaker, assuming there aren't nearby buildings, you hear a mono sound. Whenever you're between the two (front and either side), you'll get a nice stereo effect.

 

In any case, due to room acoustics, the side channel gets bounced around, causing a stereo image, one that's not "synthetic", but one that's definitely different than what you'd get in an ideal stereo L/R setup. The fact that so many people like it just reinforces a point I've been making on this board for 10 years now: for keyboards, we don't need accurate stereo imagining, we just need SOME kind of stereo imaging, ideally with relatively large sweet spots.

 

IIRC the simulated stereo devices took a mono signal and created a simulated stereo signal. The SS3 is taking a true stereo signal and creating a stereo sound using a left, right and front facing speakers in the one enclosure. The key difference is you get stereo from one box, not the conventional two.

Right. Mid-Side technique is a miking technique where you point one mic right at the subject, and another mic at right angles. The mic at right angles responds to the stereo imaging; the one pointed at the subject responds to the direct ("mono") sound.

 

There's really not much magic here. You can take signals recorded that way and convert them to standard L/R very easily, and vice versa.

 

The SS3 is just cleverly using the same principle, but with speakers rather than mics. The difference in application causes differences in results, but it's the same idea.

 

Listening to his video, if the signal is pure mono (e.g. alot of synth sounds), then sound only comes out of the front speaker. only if there's stereo signal (either from channels or effects) does the side speaker kick in.

Correct.

 

I wonder about that. 90% of my patches are mono except for effects.

This points out one disadvantage to this system. For mono sounds, half of your power is going completely unused. So, you have to have more power to get the same SPL than you otherwise would, for mono patches. If most of your stereo imaging is subtle, you'd need less power in that side speaker. You might regret such a limitation the first time you engaged the Rhodes stereo vibrato.

 

the side "stereo effect" speaker is only on one side, is there a difference if you're on one side vs another?

Not really. The two sides are 180 degrees out of phase. Do you hear a difference if you flip an invert switch? Well, sure, it might make a detectable difference when the kick drum hits, if the speaker cone moves out rather than in. But we're talking about stereo cues, not the main signal. So the difference is, on the left side, something panned left would sound like more is coming from the left speaker. From the right, something panned right would (believe it or not) sound more like it's coming from the front speaker.

 

I saw someone laying it on its side, was the "side" speaker pointed up?

That should completely defeat the purpose, as we have no ears on the tops of our heads. In theory, this shouldn't work at all. In reality, rooms are complex, and it might actually sound like ... well, something. But I recommend against this, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the SS3 makers would too.

 

This is a lot like having two monitors for stereo, and pointing one of them up rather than forward.

 

Do you guys with the SS3 that also run FOH - do you use a mixer, or DI splitter, or ? Do u just run mono to the front or dual L/R channels and hope FOH pans accordingly, or ?

 

The right way to do it, if FOH is stereo, is to send the same stereo left / right signals to FOH that you send to the SS3. In other words, do it the same way we do with stereo monitors, such as using a stereo DI with the thru connectors going to monitors.

[JeffLearman]

Back to the subject, our friend Kanker (Kevin Anker) wrote a great article about this in Keyboard Mag:

 

http://www.keyboardmag.com/how-to/1255/solving-stereo-stage-piano-problems/28996

 

Kevin says stereo is for amateurs. I'm an amateur, so he must be right! Regardless, while we disagree on whether or not to use stereo live, his reasons for his choice are well-founded, and his article above is full of good advice and information.

 

Of course, if he really had his shit together he'd run stereo.

[Doug Robinson]

"

Quote:

I saw someone laying it on its side, was the "side" speaker pointed up?"

 

 

"That should completely defeat the purpose, as we have no ears on the tops of our heads. In theory, this shouldn't work at all. In reality, rooms are complex, and it might actually sound like ... well, something. But I recommend against this, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the SS3 makers would too."

 

 

Actually, it's the opposite. I haven't tried it--doesn't seem logical to me either--but the user and the inventor have both fooled around with this and haven't ruled it out at all. Since the SS3 isn't a simple L and R stereo thing as much as a 3 dimensional amplification setup, the important thing is how the sound wraps around the room, and putting on the side (elevated on a stand of course) doesn't seem to make a difference. It CAN make a difference to the drummer, though, if your side speaker is firing right at him. Drummers can get a little touchy about that

[JeffLearman]

I see the point about not blasting the drummer.

 

But the only way you get stereo is a difference between left and right, so that upward facing speaker must be facing a ceiling that's not symmetrical, or you will get no stereo. (And/or floor, since that side speaker radiates both directions.)

 

BTW, you do know there's a "Quote" button for every post, right?

 

The SSR is a simple left and right stereo thing. It's just a different kind of left and right stereo thing than the normal one. Despite my using 3D above, the SSR is not a 3D thing: there are only two components: left and right. I understand Mid-Side pretty well, having used it in a variety of ways, and I can do the (very simple) math. It's a great idea to take advantage of it in a single-point stereo speaker. But we do not have ears on the tops of our heads. While it might work to some extent, it has to be reducing the stereo imaging dramatically, unless there's something odd going on above and below the speaker -- or in the mind of the listener.

 

While I did see a post where Aspen acknowledged using the SS3 with a stand, I didn't see one where he specifically mentioned setting it on its side. Perhaps I missed that one; it's hard to read all 88 pages ...

 

Anyway, color me skeptical. I'll believe it when I hear it. Even then, I'll want to switch to mono and see how big a difference it makes, because I know how easy it is for me to fool myself, when it comes to listening.

 

If we continue on this, let's do it on the SS3 thread!

[spazzkey]

 

Anyway, color me skeptical. I'll believe it when I hear it. Even then, I'll want to switch to mono and see how big a difference it makes, because I know how easy it is for me to fool myself, when it comes to listening.

 

 

don't wait too long now...

[Stokely]

I run mono most of the time....the only exception to that would be the occasional simple setup at a benefit or other event (earth day this weekend for example) where there are sound folks that give me two DIs and I say "sure!". But normally we play clubs and run sound from stage, and my in-ear pack in mono (I think, it's possible that I could be wrong). If I'm hearing mono and sending stereo to FOH it could sound different (both in volume and in timbre) and I like to know if something is jumping out--though of course programming the patches *should* take care of this.... Most sound guys have told me they run mono because most people are going to be primarily hearing one speaker...imagine a leslie effect that pans (as they tend to)...a person only hearing one speaker is going to hear an extreme tremolo, depending on the pan amount.

 

There are a few patches that I've had to adjust as they change drastically when listening in mono, usually due to fx on the patches. So I make a mono version and make sure volume-wise it lines up with the others.

 

I agree that stereo sounds better, but bottom line I'm playing mostly small clubs and choose not to sweat it. I have other concerns, like my singing and playing! Hey I'm glad when somebody says they can hear the keys at all! (another popcorn thread)

 

 

[Raymb1]

The SS is not a left-right stereo system. The front speakers put out L+R and the side firing speaker puts out L-R, all out of phase with each other. I hear it as a surround sound, not stereo. When my wife first heard the SS, she said it sounded like there was a real piano in the room.

[DanL]

I see the point about not blasting the drummer.

 

But the only way you get stereo is a difference between left and right, so that upward facing speaker must be facing a ceiling that's not symmetrical, or you will get no stereo. (And/or floor, since that side speaker radiates both directions.)

 

BTW, you do know there's a "Quote" button for every post, right?

 

The SSR is a simple left and right stereo thing. It's just a different kind of left and right stereo thing than the normal one. Despite my using 3D above, the SSR is not a 3D thing: there are only two components: left and right. I understand Mid-Side pretty well, having used it in a variety of ways, and I can do the (very simple) math. It's a great idea to take advantage of it in a single-point stereo speaker. But we do not have ears on the tops of our heads. While it might work to some extent, it has to be reducing the stereo imaging dramatically, unless there's something odd going on above and below the speaker -- or in the mind of the listener.

 

While I did see a post where Aspen acknowledged using the SS3 with a stand, I didn't see one where he specifically mentioned setting it on its side. Perhaps I missed that one; it's hard to read all 88 pages ...

 

Anyway, color me skeptical. I'll believe it when I hear it. Even then, I'll want to switch to mono and see how big a difference it makes, because I know how easy it is for me to fool myself, when it comes to listening.

 

If we continue on this, let's do it on the SS3 thread!

 

If you turn the side volume all the way down you are essentially running mono thru the front speaker only.

[Doug Robinson]

"While I did see a post where Aspen acknowledged using the SS3 with a stand, I didn't see one where he specifically mentioned setting it on its side. Perhaps I missed that one; it's hard to read all 88 pages ..."

 

 

he didn't like it on a pole, but my recollection was that he supposed setting it on a stand on it's side might give you basically the same 3D experience. Remember it isn't Left/Right stereo, more 3 Dimensional sound.