[how-to/wich]integrate keyboard jazz/improvisation

[Dextroze]

Hi !

 

My name is Dexter, i'm a french jazz pianist.

 

Recently, I decided I wanted to add in my play on stage a keyboard. I want to use different sounds, work on them etc. Theremore, I could use a good weighted keyboard since I don't always play on acoustic pianos !

 

I tried the roland rd-800, wich in my novice opinion in keyboards sounded great ! But is it good as a midi controller ? Does it have to be a midi controller since the sounds are great and that you can do things hardware-wise ?

 

What amp should I buy ?

 

My maximum budget is 3000$...So much money for me !!!

 

It's been 3 days i'm looking for good musicians advices, but it's hard to find this kind of thing in french:)

 

I hope somebody can help me here !

 

Thanks

[stoken6]

Bonjour Dexter, et bienvenue.

 

Do you think the RD800 gives you all the sounds you need? If so, MIDI controller features don't matter. (I suspect the RD800 is a good MIDI controller, but I don't know the details).

 

Amps have been discussed on this forum many times. Lots of us like QSC, Yamaha, or EV.

 

(Let me know if you need anything translating)

 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Dextroze]

Hello and thank you for your answer.

 

Do you think that for a first experience of keyboards the rd-800 is too much ?

Does someone knows about the midi controller ability of the rd-800 ?

 

 

[Dextroze]

(I don't know wich sounds I need yet !!!! I'm really new to this world)

[Joe Muscara]

There are good weighted keyboards from many brands, including Casio, Yamaha, Roland, Kurzweil, Nord, and maybe some others. They all have good piano sounds as well as possibly the other sounds you're looking for. You should try as many as you can and try them again until you can't tell which one you like anymore. Then, wait a while and try again.

 

Personally, I like the Casios. Even though you have the budget for just about anything out there, the Casios are lightweight and have excellent "bang-for-the-buck" as we say here. They sound great, too. The top of the line PX-5S can do a lot of sounds and there are more that are downloadable at casiomusicforums.com. There's also a big support community there and at the Facebook group for it.

 

Don't go cheap on amplification. As Mike says, there are a lot of good options depending on your budget and what's available to you in France or Europe. You can even order the SpaceStation v3 from Sweetwater here in the U.S. and I hear it's not a bad deal despite shipping overseas. There's a huge thread about this amp here. People seem to love this one though it is currently backordered.

 

I had a Roland RD-700GX which was two models before the RD-800. It was a powerful MIDI controller as I suspect the 800 is as well. (The Casio PX-5S is a very good MIDI controller also.) As far as it being "too much," nah, I don't believe that with just about any keyboard. Worst case, you hit a button and just play the primary piano sound. Otherwise, it's up to you how lost you get in it.

[Tusker]

(I don't know wich sounds I need yet !!!! I'm really new to this world)

 

In that case, I'd start by broadening your awareness of what you want to execute. You can begin by listing people you would like to sound like, or cover.

 

I am going to guess that the way your skills will develop, you will think of yourself as piano + other for awhile. (i.e. "other sounds" are an add on to your core skills.)

 

Spend part of your money on the "Stage Piano" you are buying. There are several contenders so try them all (RD800, CP4, etc.) That will get your "piano", while you are developing your conception of "other."

 

At this point, do you play regularly with other keyboard sounds? Rhodes? Wurly? B3?, Clav? anything else?. Any information you provide will help us to help you to find your "other". Cheers.

[ProfD]

At this point, do you play regularly with other keyboard sounds? Rhodes? Curly? B3?, Clay? anything else?. Any information you provide will help us to help you to find your "other". Cheers.

Tusker, don't go adding new sounds to the KB mix.

 

To the OP, take Joe's advice, head to a music store and play the full range of digital pianos (DPs).

 

Pay attention to the finger-to-ear connection (FTEC) which is finding the *right* KB according to how it feels underneath your fingers and sounds to your ears.

 

Have fun picking out your first digital keyboard and exploring the music-making possibilities with it.

[Joe Muscara]

Oh, and bring good headphones. The store may not have consistent monitoring from one keyboard to another (some may not even be hooked up) so even if you do use what they have, you'll also have the baseline of the headphones to compare each keyboard equally.

[Tusker]

At this point, do you play regularly with other keyboard sounds? Rhodes? Curly? B3?, Clay? anything else?. Any information you provide will help us to help you to find your "other". Cheers.

Tusker, don't go adding new sounds to the KB mix.

 

Original post fixed.

[Dextroze]

Thanks a lot guys, I will think and write something soon so that you can help me even better

I'll go try those keyboards soon !

 

What do you think about kawai mp7 compared to the rd-800 ?

 

Have a gold day !

[allan_evett]

One of the RD800 reviews I read indicated that, compared to the earlier RD stage pianos, the RD800's control features - both for internal sounds and MIDI - had been trimmed slightly. A similar thing happened with the Yamaha CP4 - especially when compared to the earlier CP300. That said, both of those instruments are great sounding, highly playable stage pianos - with very respectable additional sounds, and some very helpful front-panel control features. I spent about an hour with an RD800 - earlier this year. It sounded great in all of its sound categories. The electric pianos - Rhodes and Wurlitzer - were solid.

 

The Kawai MP7 has a highly comprehensive control setup, and a very straightforward interface. And I've found it to be very playable. The pianos are built on Kawai samples, and sound excellent. While I still prefer the Rhodes on my CP4, I favor the Wurlitzer on the MP7. The additional sounds are quite good. I'd recommend finding an MP7 to play before making your decision. And if you can find a Yamaha CP4 for further comparison, that would be good too. I own a CP4 for gigging. The Kawai MP7 is provided for a weekly church gig I've covered since August.

 

[mauriziodececco]

If you are in Paris, go to Star Music, Pigalle metro station.

They have the whole Nord stuff (Nord Stage, Nord Piano and Nord Electro), the RD800, the Yamaha CP4 and CP40, and the Viscounts; plenty of workstations too,

last time i checked they had the FA08, and the Yahama and Korg stuff exposed.

They are very kind and let you try stuff without problems; you can compare stuff.

 

What is missing there is the Kawai pianos; for that you have to go the Woodbrass, at Port De Pantin; last time i have been there they had a Waldorf Zarenbourg also.

 

Maurizio

[Dextroze]

Nice man !

I have a rehearse with my trio near mortee de pantin !

So... I might check the mp7

[keyboardologist]

I would suggest you to stay out of Casio, Nord, Roland or Korg because of their action which I personally don't like.

You can also avoid most expensive boards like Yahama S90XS or Kurzweil PC3K8/Forte as all it will give you is more editing, sampling, etc you don't really need for performances.

 

Look at Kawai MP7, Yamaha CP4, Kurzweil PC3LE8 or newest PC3A8.

Overall, the Kawai will possibly has the best action, although the Yamaha will have the easiest interface and the Kurzweils the best controller experience, I would probably pick up the Kawai.

[Dextroze]

Thx a lot !!!

And wich would have the best sounds/abily to transform them, make effects ?

 

[Dextroze]

The kurzweils are so heavy

It's important for me also, I need the keyboards with the better action, the most sounds and ability to edit them+fx and the lighter....lol !

[Dextroze]

For maximum 3000$ :S

[Jazz+]

Best action for fast jazz players: Yamaha CP4

[Dextroze]

Lol fast jazz players

Bytheway :

 

Old sounds but i'm making a trio and it all new and in progress...i'd like to add sounds

[Dave Ferris]

Hi Dexter. Listened to your stuff. Everything sounds excellent man. Liked your Golliwog's Cakewalk & Green Dolphin Street. Nice solo on Rainy Day too. Dug the minor vamp/ostinato on the end. Nice supportive, interacting comping everywhere too. You listen and play very, very well.

 

For uptempo stuff like on Humpty Dumpty, I definitely would go with the CP4. That's what I use.

 

I came from using the Nord Piano 88 & Nord Piano 2 for 3 years (after the Yamaha CP5), and the Nord/Fatar action couldn't keep up with me on uptempo jazz. The clarity of the Nord Faziloli sample for chords and comping in the middle to upper middle high registers (through good speakers) is highly detailed and very realistic though.

 

However their piano samples (as of this writing) thin out on single note lines, especially in higher registers. And in addition suffer from a general un-evenness, that is more noticeable in jazz stylings then pop/rock/blues genres.

 

For your more Impressionistic/Debussy/Ballad stuff, you might dig the RD800 ( the new Concert sample from the V-piano is outstanding !) more then the CP4, or maybe even the MP7. However if you play the MP7, go to the Mellow Piano on the Kawai, the Concert default piano is too harsh.

 

This all my pov and taste, and is of course very subjective when discussing tone and action concerns. I find the CP4 covers all bases the best -tonally, action/ player connection, and gig portability wise- for Jazz at this time.

 

What isn't subjective is getting the best speakers you can afford and running in stereo whenever possible.

 

I use the RCF TT08As, and for the lower end price point of what are considered Pro Audio high end speakers- I'm very happy with them. To get something that would improve the sound maybe only 30-40 (at most) % (L' Acoustics 108Ps & Fulcrum Acoustic FA28ac ), you would have to pay twice as much, per cabinet, as the RCFs.

 

And then you get into an area where you are still dealing with limitations of an electronic keyboard that will never give you subtleties, nuances, action refinement and colors that a good acoustic will give you.

 

You very well might already be aware of all that, but I only mention this since you are a more advanced acoustic player then the normal keyboard/band type player that often can never realize the limitations of a digital piano.

 

I've thrown a lotta money at this stuff and while my live sound is probably *as good as it's going to get*, the whole experience still falls way short of even playing on a barely passable 6' grand like a Young Chang, or something equally as unremarkable.

 

Good speakers that do a pretty decent job of re-producing piano sounds for acoustic jazz stylings, at a lower end cost, would be the EV ZXA1s. I'd stay clear of the popular QSCs and most everything in that price range personally. You're looking more for "tone", not volume or heavy bass response.

 

I don't do midi so I can't help you in that area. Good luck with it all.

 

edit with added thought..

Old sounds but i'm making a trio and it all new and in progress...i'd like to add sounds

 

Nothing wrong with "Old sounds". They will be probably be far more etched in discerning music people's minds more then "new sounds", 100 years from now. What's most important is to make a high quality, honest and sincere musical statement that will hopefully stand the test of time.

[Dextroze]

Thank you so much for your compliments and your advices !

 

Really interesting stuff here

 

The thing is that I need to be able to have great leads/synths/strange sounds, because at the "higher end", I'd be on stage with an acoustic piano, so what i need first is a digital piano that offers multi-fx multi-sounds and i'm notre sure the cp4 is the best for.

I would definitely take it for gigs without real piano though !!

 

Do you have other ideas ?

 

"keyboards with the better action, the biggest number of sounds and ability to edit them+fx and the lighter".

 

Maybe it is the cp4 as you say ?

 

It's true that the weight and the action seems great !!!

[Tusker]

The thing is that I need to be able to have great leads/synths/strange sounds, because at the "higher end", I'd be on stage with an acoustic piano, so what i need first is a digital piano that offers multi-fx multi-sounds and i'm notre sure the cp4 is the best for.

 

I'll reiterate what I said before ... it is better to define what you mean by this musically ... as soon as possible. There are two ways to go: 1) define musically what you want, or 2) get abundant synth capacity and let it evolve. Option 2 can be very time inefficient, (you may need it, but not initially) so I suggest option 1

 

How about some examples of "great leads/synths/strange sounds" ?

 

Are you thinking of something mythic like ... Jo Zawinul with Weather Report ...George Duke with Billy Cobham

 

... or something more modern and perhaps glitchy ...?

 

[video:youtube]5Ryeg3aa7m0

 

One type of music could favor adding an analog synth or processing, another type of music calls to mind sophisticated soft-synths like Omnisphere. Do tell.

 

 

[mauriziodececco]

If you want to go the experimental way, i would take a serious look to two extremes: first the knobby Nord Stage 2 (a bit over budget, but can found second hand for less, for france check audiofanzine.fr), for a direct, intuitive machine.

 

Second some high end Kurweil for sheer power, and programming complexity; for the exact model, i would suggest some others step in; i remember reading the K2000 manual while dreaming to buy it, but i lost the contact with the models in the last n years :->

 

Maurizio

[Tusker]

What's most important is to make a high quality, honest and sincere musical statement that will hopefully stand the test of time.

 

[Dextroze]

Definitely something more glitchy !

 

What about Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S?