Good compromise key action

[MarKeys]

Hi all, in the never ending quest for a compromise action for organ and piano, I tried the m-audio keystation 88 and thought it was in-between enough to possibly be OK for both types of playing (knowing that means not great for either, but passably at least). Krome was sort of OK too. So I wonder, is the Nord hp action similar? Or, is there an action like that (sort of a light piano action, I'd say) in a board that does B-3, APs and EPs (especially Wurly) out there? Or is the Electro 3 and 4 like that at all? My background is piano, but for my band I do organ at least half the time. But as we add songs with piano parts, my electro 2 seems feeble both in sound and satisfying action feel. Thanks for any insight out there.

[AnotherScott]

Since you were considering a Keystation it seems like you don't necessarily need sounds in the board, right?

 

Two boards will always be better than one if you want actions to play piano and organ from. The Keystation is $200, the Krome is $1600, and the Nord HP is $2800, so it sounds like budget isn't your overriding concern. At $2800, or even at $1000, you can get a pair of boards that will do better than any one board.

 

But if for some reason, it simply must be a single board with a weighted action, if I had to play organ from a weighted board, I'd probably go with the Kurzweil PC3LE8 (or for more MIDI functionality, PC3K8). If the 54 lbs is too much to carry around, then a 76 key Nord Stage 2 at 36 lbs (I actually liked the earlier Stage EX a little better for this than the Stage 2, but Stage 2 is still better than most). Alternatively, if I had to play piano from an organ-action board, I would look at the Roland VR-700 or the Numa Compact, which at 14 lbs is the best lightweight solution IMO. (I haven't tried the Hammond SK1-88 which could be another possibility.)

 

But an 88 like a Casio PX-150 or Yamaha P35 paired with something like a Samson Graphite or Novation SL MK II could get you a pretty cheap, pretty light rig that would feel better for piano and organ than any single board,

[CEB]

My background is piano.

 

But I would rather try to play piano on a organ action than organ on a piano action. Later can be impossible depending on the tune.

 

The VR700 is nice for this. The longer SK1 models maybe really nice.

 

PS I have posted before the S90XS is my favorite compromise action .... But that is for everything but organ. I always use it with a separate organ.

[High Diving Act]

+1 for VR700

[MarKeys]

Vr700 sounds interesting. So it has an in between action? The organ parts I do are more classic rock and not terribly intricate, so I was starting to think a little weight in the keys would help fur piano but still work for organ. I tried the M-audio just as something to compare, since there's limited selection where I live. I love nord because it focuses on the only sounds I use, so that's why I was hoping there was some good compromise in their line. But a used HP is probably all I could afford in their line. But if VR700 has light piano action, might be right for me.

[Delaware Dave]

The Kurzweil PC3K7 (or PC3 if you can find one used) uses the Fatar TP-8 action, a semi-weighted keyboard action. Its intent is the in-between (compromising) action so that both piano and organ can be played. It works for me.

[bourniplus]

The Kurzweil PC3 has a nice compromise action. A bit stiffer than Nord's NE3, AFAIK.

 

Finding a velocity curve that fits your piano playing style helps with light actions.

[AnotherScott]

Vr700 sounds interesting. So it has an in between action?

I don't really think I'd call it an "in between action." There are weighted actions that use some kind of mechanism to simulate the feel of a piano hammer, and there the un- and semi-weighted actions that don't. "Semi" sounds like it would be in-between, but there are so many implementations of it that I don't think the word really is very helpful. The unweighted Yamaha NP-30 feels better for piano than some semi-weighted boards do. So rather than talk about "in between" actions, I pretty much just group them into the two categories; and within them, some weighted actions are better than most for organ (Kurzweil PC3LE8, for example), and some un/semi-weighted actions are better for piano than most (VR700 for example).

 

The one exception I can think of is probably the discontinued VAX77 which was a non-piano action that was arguably better for piano than it was for organ. (It had a sophisticated velocity system that could work well for piano, while the somewhat sharp edges to the keys made it less than idea for organ.)

 

The organ parts I do are more classic rock and not terribly intricate

Block chords and basic melody lines on organ are fine on a weighted action. You start getting into trouble if you are playing things that are very fast or that involve more organ-specific techniques, i.e. lots of "smushing" of keys, whether the big smears and swipes, or little things for finesse, or the kinds of "hammering" or "slapping" of the keys that some people do. Similarly, if your piano playing is simple, not employing much finesse or velocity control, like banging out chords Jerry Lee Lewis style, you can be okay on an unweighted board. The bottom line is you can pay piano or organ on any board, the question is one of whether you have to be able to play either of them well. ;-)

 

I love nord because it focuses on the only sounds I use

Since you mentioned the Keystation as a possibility, I assumed you were getting your sounds from some other device (laptop, whatever). If you need to get your sounds out of the board, that adds another variable.

 

a used HP is probably all I could afford in their line.

The HP is a good way to get Nord sounds in a lightweight box, but the action is one of the weaker weighted actions even for piano, as well as being a poor choice for organ. If you found the Krome 88 "sorta ok" you'd probably find this "sorta ok" too, though it would be lighter, smaller, and sound better too, especially for organ.

 

But if VR700 has light piano action, might be right for me.

VR700 does not have a light piano action, it has an organ action. It just happens to have one that is better for piano than most non-piano actions.

 

What is your budget? Are there any important sounds for you beside piano and organ? Is travel weight an issue?

 

[AnotherScott]

The Kurzweil PC3 has a nice compromise action. A bit stiffer than Nord's NE3, AFAIK.

That action is a bit polarizing, obviously it does have its fans, like you and DDave. Although it doesn't feel like the non-hammer-action Nords, I do put them both in the "too springy" category. I guess of the two, I'd pick Nord for organ and Kurz for piano, though the Nord is a better organ action than Kurz is a piano action. I guess my inclination is to want the board to feel good at one thing, if only acceptable at the other, any my complaint about the PC3 is that I don't find it to feel satisfyingly good enough at either. I think I prefer their 88, not just for piano, but for organ as well.

[Delaware Dave]

Scott, if the keyboard were less springy then the next complaint would be that it is too spongy. I spent 4 hours yesterday playing my Equinox 88 with hammer action, the PC3 with semi-weighted action and the Equinox 76 with it's synth action. The PC3 is in fact right in the middle of the other two. Although not ideal and I'd prefer two keyboards (one weighted, one synth w/ waterfall) I reconfirmed that, for me, it is somewhere in the middle and of the three keyboard actions it works best (of the three) for playing both piano and organ.

[MarKeys]

Great analyses. Curious what makes the VR700 organ action OK for piano. Slight stiffness?

I'm finding when I try to do fast piano on the NE2, the keys are so light that it's easy to sound adjacent keys accidentally. I'm playing more Wurly too, and would like some weight to the keys. I guess my ideal would be an electro 3 with keys like a beat up old piano, where the keys are light but still piano like. Though a great organ sound is key, I'm thinking now that less than perfect smears would be a good trade off for better piano playability. And yes, total board weight and size matter for me (73 or 76 keys work best).

[AnotherScott]

I've never played any Equinox, but I would certainly agree that there are plenty of weighted actions that are worse for organ than a PC3, and that there are plenty of synth actions that are worse for piano than a PC3, so I would not be surprised if I would agree with you if I were making the same comparison.

 

Whether the PC3 is the best compromise board is a different question. If you ever get a chance to play a VR700 on the un-semi/weighted side, or a PC3X/PC3K8/PC3LE8 on the weighted side, I'd be curious to know how you would find either of those to be for piano and organ compared to the PC3. My own take would be to find the 88 key Kurz to be better than the PC3 for piano while at least no worse for organ; while finding the VR700 to be better for organ while being at least no worse for piano. Since I think they are significantly better in one respect while being no worse in the other, I think they make for better compromise boards. But yes, none are as good as having two boards.

[CEB]

I didn't say the VR-700 was good for piano. LOL!

 

It is a heck of a lot better playing piano on organ keys than organ on weigted keys. You won't tear your hands and bleed on your keys trying to play piano on a organ/synth action. You just might do that playing organ on a weighted action.

 

I would tend to get more tendon problems trying to do Organ on weighted keys. A lot more fatigue. It just isn't palm smears but it is the "machine gun" style licks like when you use rapid alternating fingers on the same note before going into rapid repetive blues scale runs. It totally would wear my hands out really fast.

 

The worst thing that will probably happen to you piano parts on a organ action is the feel may suck. Playing organ on heavy keys could lead to injury.

 

Personally I have to use 2 separate board. Most of my gigs are 3-4 hours.

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Never played the Roland. However, I have PC2, PC2X, PC3, PC3X, and PC361. For organ parts, the PC361 is the best (synth keyboard), but it is the worst for piano. For piano, the PC2X and PC3X (88 key weighted) is best - the two do feel considerably different. However, I can do most piano stuff (except things like Chopin and other romantic era music) on the PC2 or PC3 with no problem. I can also play most organ parts on either, although they do tire my hands a bit more than the PC361.

The PC2 and PC361 most of the time are located at my church. The PC3 is the one I carry around most. I formerly had a 73 key Electro 3 - it does NOT feel like the PC3. (I sold it and bought the PC361, while I liked the light weight of the Nord, I wanted more patches and a better selection system).

 

Others may feel differently - the above is my personal feeling. I've had the PC2 for about 9 years, the PC2X for 8 years, the PC3X 6 years, the PC3 for 5 years, and the 361 for 2-1/2 years.

[Bif_]

I've found the PC3 action to be kind of weird for piano stuff but am OK with for everything else.

 

My only suggestion is to play before you buy. As others have said, the PC3 action can be polarizing and your sure don't want to get something like that and hate it.

 

[MarKeys]

That's the big problem where I live: nothing available to try. Does anyone like playing piano on a Electro 3 or 4? Could the action be better than my electro 2 ( which is actually the original electro but with the software update). A little more weighted perhaps? Was wishing the HP was a good compromise, but sounds like no?

[rockinredeye]

The PC3 has been great as my only board. It replaced a triple stack of keyboards. The action is stiff enough for non-subtle piano & soft enough for organ. I wouldn't try to play classical in public with it, though. Of course, this is subjective. But I have loved the feel and sounds for 4 years in my classic rock band. Cut way back on my gear lust, too.

[MarKeys]

Thanks for all the ideas. Funny how suggestions help crystallize thoughts. I have a Vent, and we mostly play rock organ parts, so one idea was to find a good piano and EP sound, and a passable organ that sounds much better because of the Vent. But having not found that (and wanting lightweight), my heart goes back to Nord. Just have to figure out if it's worth upgrading from my NE2...

[AnotherScott]

I have a Vent, and we mostly play rock organ parts, so one idea was to find a good piano and EP sound, and a passable organ that sounds much better because of the Vent. But having not found that (and wanting lightweight)

Just to get a handle on the requirements, it sounds like these things are a must:

 

1. lightweight

2. better piano sounds than Nord Electro 2

3. passable organ, doesn't have to be as good as Nord, since you have Ventilator

 

and while an action that is better than the Electro if you want to play both piano and organ from the same board is desirable (and what started the thread), it is not as important as the three things above. (And it must be a single board, rather than a 2nd board to add to your Nord.)

 

Is that right?

 

Questions:

 

1. Do you need real-time access to changing drawbar positions on the fly, or would it be enough to be able to call up different stored drawbar settings from presets?

 

2. Do you need more than 61 keys? (I don't think you've mentioned whether your Nord is a 61 or 73 key model)

 

 

[MarKeys]

I have and need the 73 keys. And I don't need to make a lot of on-the-fly drawbar adjustments. I love the Nord organ sound, but I'm also trying to be very realistic. The clubs we play, I'm not sure the organs need to be the best. I know it's not ideal, but I do want to try to stick to one board. And I know I need to compromise, and also that I'm having trouble compromising! AnotherScott, you're correct on the other parameters. I really appreciate you guys working on ideas for a good solution--Great to have this kind of community.

[AnotherScott]

Here are some lightweight possibilities to consider, with at least 73 keys.

 

* Hammond SK1

 

I think this is a nice upgrade from the Electro 2 overall. It is available both 73 key and 88 key, with the 88 key supposedly being better for piano, while still being good for organ. (I haven't been able to get my hands on one yet.)

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2466911

 

 

* Kurzweil SP4-7

 

I think this beats your Electro in sound (I definitely like the pianos and EPs better than what's in your Nord, and I think organs are at least about as good, plus you have the Vent), and the action is better than the Nord's for piano. Unfortunately, the sharp edges of the keys impede some organ techniques, which could be an issue. You can get real-time organ drawbar control by adding an Ocean Beach DB1 drawbar device (among other possible solutions). If you can deal with the keys for organ, this is a well-priced, versatile solution, that will give you what you want in comparison to your Nord: better pianos and EPs, good organ, and an action better suited for piano, in a single lightweight board.

 

 

* Roland Jupiter 50

 

I think this might offer the best action and best piano sound of the possibilities. You can create organ presets of whatever drawbar settings you want, but cannot manipulate them in real time. The organ sound's deficiencies should be pretty well addressed with your Vent.

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2459669

 

 

Also, another way to stick with one board could be to use a board plus a laptop or iPad. Laptop gives you the most capability, iPad is a simpler plug-and-play option with less complicated stage ergonomics.

 

Just to improve the piano sound of your current setup, if you have an iPad (or iPhone, or iPod Touch), try using your Nord to play an app like the CMP Grand Piano.

 

Or to get an action that is more piano-friendly, you could switch to a Numa Compact (88 keys, but weighs less than your Electro, with better piano/EP sounds) and use your iDevice to run the Galileo app (with or without Vent). That also works well because, unlike your Nord, the Numa would give you easy front panel control for switching between its internal (piano) sounds and your external (organ) sound. Drawbars could be controlled on screen, or you should be able to hook up a drawbar control device as well, like the Ocean Beach DB1 or possibly Korg NanoKontrol.

 

 

[nickd]

Just to chip in, I'm finding that I'm adapting my organ playing technique to get round the limitations of the SP4-7. For example, I can do pseudo-palm smears now along the top of the keys, rather than the edge.

 

But the sharp edges of the keys do get in the way...

[MarKeys]

Hammond sk1 seems intriguing. But I assumed it was true light organ action. Anyone know if the action is at all good for piano?

[Michael Wright]

Just to chip in, I'm finding that I'm adapting my organ playing technique to get round the limitations of the SP4-7. For example, I can do pseudo-palm smears now along the top of the keys, rather than the edge.

But the sharp edges of the keys do get in the way...

I would agree. When I take just the SP-4-7, I can get around the action for organ, to a point. It is however an economical option and it would be worth at least trying one out.

[Dana.]

Let's get real here: "good compromise" is an oxymoron, especially with regard to key action. Do the sane thing and use two boards.

 

Personally, I try my best to avoid a life (musical or otherwise) full of "OK," "not great," and "passable." YMMV.

[Michael Wright]

Let's get real here: "good compromise" is an oxymoron, especially with regard to key action. Do the sane thing and use two boards.

Personally, I try my best to avoid a life (musical or otherwise) full of "OK," "not great," and "passable." YMMV.

Agreed. Two boards is preferable for me.

[Joe Muscara]

Let's get real here: "good compromise" is an oxymoron, especially with regard to key action. Do the sane thing and use two boards.

 

Personally, I try my best to avoid a life (musical or otherwise) full of "OK," "not great," and "passable." YMMV.

QFT.

[David Loving]

Don't forget to spray the keyboard with Pledge. It overcomes many disadvantages of the keybed.