Ashville.Guru Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 @Markay: Thanks for pointing that out. I usually don't like jumping to conclusions without objective measurements involved. I've edited the statement above. Incidentally, this is what I said in the other thread: The sensible way of doing things is to actually measure CPU load, with the same VSTs, on both hosts Sadly, two and half years later, we're still as clueless... . I think he's gonna try Bidule first, since the demo will let him spend $0 (once it's available) vs. >$0 for a new interface There's something I don't fully get. Bidule isn't $0, it costs $95. The Presonus FW interface costs $250 (and from my experience, brings WAY more audio processing power than changing a host). The Bidule demo if and when it's available, costs $0, and would likely be time-limited (at least). Doesn't trying out an interface from a store with a return policy also cost $0 (plus shipping)? In which case, trying them out both costs the same... I'm honestly not clear about this, since stores with return policies are only beginning to catch on in my part of the world, and certainly not for music gear. I often wonder why you guys don't make more use of return policies! Are there hidden costs/downsides...? - Guru This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-string-man Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Hi Guru, Most of what you write goes way above my head, I don't quite live in Technophobeland, but you can certainly see it from here, on a clear day. Anyway, the small amount I do understand makes a lot of sense, so acting on your advice, I checked out the prices of a couple of FireWire interfaces, which are reasonably affordable. I now have hit a snag. My computer (Windows) doesn't have a FireWire port. I am assuming that I need one to make full use of a FireWire interface? I went online, and very few PC's have a FireWire port, so I checked out Apple. The current Mac's have USB, but seem to have dropped FireWire in favour of Thunderbolt. So, unless I have things completely wrong, I can buy a FireWire device, but not a computer with a suitable port. Isn't technology grand! SSM Occasionally, do something nice for a total stranger. They'll wonder what the hell is going on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I now have hit a snag. My computer (Windows) doesn't have a FireWire port. I am assuming that I need one to make full use of a FireWire interface? I went online, and very few PC's have a FireWire port, so I checked out Apple. The current Mac's have USB, but seem to have dropped FireWire in favour of Thunderbolt. So, unless I have things completely wrong, I can buy a FireWire device, but not a computer with a suitable port. Isn't technology grand! It's not as bad as it seems (yet)! Not clear from your post, but if you have a desktop, you add something like this, or if it's a laptop, you add something like this, but only if it has an ExpressCard slot. I don't know if the latest Macbooks have ExpressCard slots, but something like this should do the trick. Hope this helps! EDIT: A bit of googling revealed this article: Finding a PC laptop to use with your FireWire audio interface. - Guru P.S. I get the impression that FireWire, unlike USB, was perhaps always seen as a 'pro' feature on many laptop models, i.e. only the higher-end models featured them - both Win and Mac. And it is indeed more used among pros - video and audio, typically. This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnchop Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Pssst... hey A.G.... should we warn him that not all onboard Firewire chipsets are the same? I make software noises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zephonic Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I have two FW audio interfaces, but I seriously cannot recommend anything Firewire this late in the game. It had its day, it was great, but it is on the way out. You'll be investing in dead-end tech. Go with USB3(.1) or ThB for anything external. gear list.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Pssst... hey A.G.... should we warn him that not all onboard Firewire chipsets are the same? Figured the good folks at Presonus who wrote that article (linked above) have done a pretty good job of explaining that mess... Also trying to keep tabs on my runaway verbosity... :grin: - Guru This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 It had its day, it was great, but it is on the way out. Everything's on its way out, but the question is how soon. Even if FW's time is imminent (which is debatable), the successor to the top slot is ThB, not USB. The choice is thus between what's best now, versus what is, and will remain, second-best. - Guru This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I think he's gonna try Bidule first, since the demo will let him spend $0 (once it's available) vs. >$0 for a new interface There's something I don't fully get. Bidule isn't $0, it costs $95. The Presonus FW interface costs $250 (and from my experience, brings WAY more audio processing power than changing a host). The Bidule demo if and when it's available, costs $0, and would likely be time-limited (at least). Doesn't trying out an interface from a store with a return policy also cost $0 (plus shipping)? In which case, trying them out both costs the same... I'm honestly not clear about this, since stores with return policies are only beginning to catch on in my part of the world, and certainly not for music gear. I often wonder why you guys don't make more use of return policies! Are there hidden costs/downsides...? I honestly never thought about the "return after trying" policy of stores, forgot about that. I've never done it do they actually give you your money back (minus shipping), or just a store credit? Wouldn't some people use this as a "free rental"? Regarding the Bidule demo, once it's released it runs fully unrestricted for three months. No beeps every ten seconds, no quitting after 20 minutes. I'm sure you can see why Plogue needs to have a certain period of time between demo releases - otherwise many people would just keep downloading and running the "demo." Sadly, we're in a "dark" period right now. The upside IMO is that once the demo is released, three months fully unrestricted is a good amount of time to evaluate it. Of course one needs to regularly check the Plogue website in order to grab the demo when it's first released, to take advance of the full three-month period. Not to hash this to death, but if either getting the FW interface or using Bidule lets the OP achieve his goal of running a smooth VI setup, at the end of the day he'll be $155 ahead with Bidule (assuming your $250 figure for the FW box), as long as he's OK with stereo-only output and the latency is acceptable. And, IMHO Core Audio on a Mac has acceptable latency for playing VIs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I'm honestly not clear about this, since stores with return policies are only beginning to catch on in my part of the world, and certainly not for music gear. I often wonder why you guys don't make more use of return policies! Are there hidden costs/downsides...? I honestly never thought about the "return after trying" policy of stores, forgot about that. I've never done it do they actually give you your money back (minus shipping), or just a store credit? Wouldn't some people use this as a "free rental"? Though I've never returned anything, this policy has nudged me into pulling the trigger. This policy started because when things went online, people didn't want to buy until they could check it out. Guitar Center stores have gone to this policy as well, so they don't have to open boxes and put something on the showroom floor. In fact, the sales guys at the store will promote the option of taking it home and trying it for 30 days. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 The choice is thus between what's best now, versus what is, and will remain, second-best. There is also best versus close enough for government work! From what I've read, Thunderbolt is overkill for most audio needs unless you're the aforementioned Hans Zimmer type maybe. As I mentioned, I just got a new Mac, and it has no FW ports. My samples currently live on a SSD in an external FW800 case. To get me going, I bought the TB-to-FW adapter that Apple sells ($30). At my first gig with the new computer last night it worked fine, but it's a rather large "dongle" type of adapter and I don't want to use it as a regular part of my touring rig. It may not even fit in the Studio Flyer case without putting a major bend in the short cable that connects the TB plug to the adapter (when the lid is closed, that is). So what are my options for a 2.5" SATA-to-TB enclosure? None that I can see. I have to assume that USB 3 will work. The theoretical transfer speeds are certainly more than enough for me. I just don't know what will happen when I play a few big chords with the sustain pedal held, and suddenly need to stream 40 or 50 samples, but I guess I'll find out soon! "Stay tuned", as they say... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markay Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I have to assume that USB 3 will work. The theoretical transfer speeds are certainly more than enough for me. I just don't know what will happen when I play a few big chords with the sustain pedal held, and suddenly need to stream 40 or 50 samples, but I guess I'll find out soon! "Stay tuned", as they say... The following is from Wikipedia on relative speeds of USB 1.1, USB 2, USB 3, FireWire and Thunderbolt. I have tried to keep this short and non-technical. Those who want to find out more can start here Wikipedia USB 1.1 - 1.5 megabytes per second USB 2.0 - 60 megabytes per second FireWire - 98 megabytes per second USB 3.0 - 625 megabytes per second Thunderbolt - 1,250 × 2 megabytes per second Here is a brief more technical description from Wikipedia of the difference between USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 "USB 3.0 has transmission speeds of up to 5 Gbit/s, which is 10 times as fast as USB 2.0 (480 Mbit/s) before taking into account that USB 3.0 is full duplex whereas USB 2.0 is half duplex, giving USB 3.0 the potential total bandwidth if utilized both ways to 20 times that of USB 2.0." Apple have made it clear they are moving to USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt. USB 3.0 has the advantage that it is compatible with USB 2.0 and earlier. Thunderbolt requires a different connector so there is no backwards compatibility. USB 3.0 provides a significant advantage over both FireWire and USB 2.0 and is available on both Apple and Windows devices. Therefore a USB 3 interface can used on virtually all machines - it is now a homogeneous market - one size fits all - no longer split into an Apple or Windows market. The question is given the 5 fold improvement offered by USB 3 (released 2010) compared with Firewire why are the interface manufacturers so resolutely stuck to peripheral standards that are more than 10 years old (USB 2) and another (Firewire) which has been discontinued? Given the demonstrable benefit of these increased speeds (not to mention the benefit of full duplex in USB 3.0 over the half duplex USB 2.0.)surely there must be a large enough market of existing customers who would upgrade to a USB 3.0 interface or controller purely to get access to the faster speeds. The music business would have to be the most backward, slowest moving segment in the IT industry. A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 The question is given the 5 fold improvement offered by USB 3 (released 2010) compared with Firewire why are the interface manufacturers so resolutely stuck to peripheral standards that are more than 10 years old (USB 2) and another (Firewire) which has been discontinued? Stuck? Check Ebay- I see a lot of cheap Chinese USB 3 hard drive enclosures for sale, some as low as $6 or $7. USB 3 is on all the new Macs, and presumably Windows machines. But yea, there's still plenty of USB 2 stuff. Firewire not so much, at least from what I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markay Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Actually there is one USB 3 interface available - it was released last month - RME Madiface XT - a steal at $US3,477 A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-string-man Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Exactly. I was down to a choice of interfaces, the Saffire Pro 14, or the Presonus Firestudio, change out of $250 for either. Now, to keep up to date, I'm into a new computer/Mac, and an interface costing $stupid$. I think I'm going to wait a year until a reasonable choice of USB3 and/or Thunderbolt devices hit the market. Pity, but there you go, life is s*** sometimes. SSM Occasionally, do something nice for a total stranger. They'll wonder what the hell is going on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I think I'm going to wait a year until a reasonable choice of USB3 and/or Thunderbolt devices hit the market. Pity, but there you go, life is s*** sometimes. You don't have to wait a year. I just found this one minute ago, looks to be brand new: http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828x A quick check of prices shows it selling for $850, so it's certainly not inexpensive, however it's only $100 more than the 828mk3 (USB & FW) so for that class of device it seems reasonable. Of course, you can use a USB 2 interface with a new Mac if you want. I don't think MOTU could sell the 828mk3 as a usable USB2 interface if they couldn't get the required bandwidth from USB2. And, USB 2 devices work just fine with new Macs' USB3 ports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-string-man Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I think I'm going to wait a year until a reasonable choice of USB3 and/or Thunderbolt devices hit the market. Pity, but there you go, life is s*** sometimes. You don't have to wait a year. I just found this one minute ago, looks to be brand new: http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/828x A quick check of prices shows it selling for $850, Could you please re-read my post? To be exact, the bit that says "change out of $250". SSM Occasionally, do something nice for a total stranger. They'll wonder what the hell is going on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Sorry, I thought that was a UK expression, didn't quite understand at the time! I guess you mean a USB3 or TB interface that's less than $250? Yes, nothing like that for now. But my other point still stands a USB2 interface will work just fine with a new Mac, and has enough bandwidth for most uses. How many channels of audio were you looking to move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-string-man Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 Sorry, I thought that was a UK expression, didn't quite understand at the time! I guess you mean a USB3 or TB interface that's less than $250? Yes, nothing like that for now. But my other point still stands a USB2 interface will work just fine with a new Mac, and has enough bandwidth for most uses. How many channels of audio were you looking to move? No idea whatsoever, and to tell you the truth, I don't even understand the question. I'm just trembling on the brink of all this. In the past, I've just been happy with a keyboard, and I'm still trying to understand MIDI properly. If I tell you that my handle SSM stands for Six String Man, and you understand that I'm actually a guitarist, and just a beginner at keys, things will probably fall into place for you. SSM Occasionally, do something nice for a total stranger. They'll wonder what the hell is going on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markay Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 SSM this thread started with OP wanting info on an alternative for MainStage. I searched back though this thread and as best I can tell you are looking for info on an interface to use with Windows. What is the issue you hope an interface would solve? A misguided plumber attempting to entertain | MainStage 3 | Axiom 61 2nd Gen | Pianoteq | B5 | XK3c | EV ZLX 12P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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