Rhythm Machine

[Martin42Cross]

Hi All,

I'm thinking of playing out solo with my originals and some reworked covers. Just piano (Alesis QS8.1)... acoustic, folk, Americana, etc. I think some of the tunes would benefit from some subtle percussion like perhaps congas, brushes, light kit. Does anyone know of a rhythm machine or whatever would allow me to choose Intros, verse, chorus, fills etc. as in an arranger keyboard? Don't want to purchase an arranger keyboard just for this purpose.

Thanks,

Martin

[Ken Beaumont]

There is the Boss DR-3 or the Alesis SR18 Link . There are whole slew of different machines at various price points.

[Martin42Cross]

Thanks Toano88,

To be clear, I wanted to have the ability to change from verse to chorus on the fly, for example. Not looking to sequence either. In other words I would program Intro, Verse, chorus, C section, fills and then launch the change to whatever section on the fly... through midi or whatever. Do these machines or any other method accomplish this?

[Ken Beaumont]

Yes, via foot switch.

[J. Dan]

I haven't followed the more modern drum machines, but that's pretty much how most of the early ones worked. Technically, you'd call it a pattern sequencer. You loop parts adding tracks in and out at will, and go to the next part. First one I ever worked with was the Alesis HR-16 that mated up to my MMT-8 sequencer.

[Brettymike]

Dan , how would a drum machine compare to your Kronos onboard tricks? , easier to set up? , more "human like" ?.

 

Brett.

[J. Dan]

Dan , how would a drum machine compare to your Kronos onboard tricks? , easier to set up? , more "human like" ?.

 

Brett.

 

Not even the same ballpark. A drum machine makes it REAL easy to throw together patterns and change them up on the fly. Generally you can pretty easily get something usable together in a hurry that will work pretty well for you.

 

Kronos is kind of like making your biscuits from scratch instead of breaking open the little canister you get from the store. It's way deeper - you can get really deep into individual samples, tuning, effects, and if you want a pattern...well that comes in Sequencer mode, which is a linear sequencer, not a pattern sequencer like most drum machines. So you record just like recording to tape.

 

Actually, Karma could be utilized - you can do a lot of what you can do on a drum machine in Karma, but again, it takes a whole bunch of setup and programming...unlike a drum machine.

 

Long and the short is...you can do MORE on the Kronos than you can on a drum machine. But it would probably take a week to do on the kronos what you can do in 10 min on a good drum machine.

 

Make sense?

[Brettymike]

Dan ,I am sensing that you have sold your good drum machine a while back. Which would have made it easier for you to "hit the ground running" with your new venture, getting the base rhythm and beats together on a good drum machine,and gradually bringing in the "polish" on the Kronos in time.

Would I be correct? .

 

Brett

[DaveMcM]

Hi Martin,

 

I have been looking for the very same thing for the same reason as you. Unfortunately, the only thing that comes close is the BOSS DR-3 but it has some issues in the way it switches patterns, at least for me. I bought one several years ago and ditched it because of the way it would have to complete the current patterns' full length before moving to a newly selected pattern. Didn't make for a fluid sounding rhythm accompaniment.

 

As for Alesis SR-16/18 and others that have buttons labeled fill-in, they are not so great in my opinion. Just having one variation can get monotonous. Some of the machines have 3 or 4 variations and fills but not that you can instantly recall on the fly so they are useless for your purpose.

 

If you could find an old Roland CR-80 that would fit the bill. In fact, find two and I'll buy one. Tap tempo, individual volume sliders for the kit and percussion, multiple intros, variations, fills and endings, several pads for adding hits, i.e. snare roll, crash, kick, etc. (these are nice if you don't want to trigger an actual fill but just want a brief accent). I used one for years with a trio (keys, bass and sax) and it worked great. I wish I still had it.

 

On a side note, I e-mailed Yonac Software, the makers of iOS apps like Magellan and Galileo which I own and are very cool by the way, with the suggestion that somebody needs to create a pre-programmed drum machine app. Why no one makes an app like this is beyond me.

 

I also have an arranger module called the WK-2MA from GEM that I have used during solo gigs where I wanted some rhythm backing. You might find one of those used. It is easy to turn off the bass part and accompaniment tracks so you just get drums. Though the price may be restrictive.

 

Good luck in your search.

[Bif_]

Hi Martin,

.... BOSS DR-3 but it has some issues in the way it switches patterns, at least for me. I bought one several years ago and ditched it because of the way it would have to complete the current patterns' full length before moving to a newly selected pattern. ....

 

I would think you would want the current pattern to end before switching to the new pattern (assuming that a verse, chorus, intro, etc., are each a fixed length).

 

A word of caution to the OP. Trying to sing, play and switch between patterns during performance could be a daunting task. It may be better to lose the flexibility of performance on-the-fly and stay with fixed-length accompaniment.

 

Greg

[Ken Beaumont]

A word of caution to the OP. Trying to sing, play and switch between patterns during performance could be a daunting task. It may be better to lose the flexibility of performance on-the-fly and stay with fixed-length accompaniment.

 

Exactly right, which is why I'm in the process of creating my own backing tracks of mostly just drums and will call them up using the setlist app on my iPad. When your planning on any solo or duo, you lose flexibility either method. There is nothing like multiple players and on the stage.

 

But the results can be pretty darn good if you put your mind to it. You can even use a combination of methods in a given set. You can use looper pedals, they even have multiple independent track ones, midi-tracks or a drum machine. Its best to try different things and see what works best for you.

 

[miden]

Also don't discount using something like BIAB to do this - using their Real Tracks + Real Drums (which are real audio samples). It is a great app for doing these sorts of things.

 

You can save them with only the drums, or with any other track you want to include in the finished backing track.

 

Check my signature (link to SoundCloud) all the tunes were done using BIAB.

[Bif_]

.... When your planning on any solo or duo, you lose flexibility either method. There is nothing like multiple players and on the stage.

 

.....You can even use a combination of methods in a given set.

 

......Its best to try different things and see what works best for you.

 

Agreed. I've done a lot of solo/sequenced work. My songs range from full-blown covers (with vocal harmonizer) to just me playing and singing with nothing else.

 

Having that variety makes brings more meaning to each end of the sonic spectrum.

 

The pattern mode on my Motif can be set up with pattern sections for intro, verse 1, verse 2, chorus, end, etc., but I can't imagine trying to sing and play while navigating those additional button pushes. And pushing the wrong button at the wrong time would be disastrous in that setting. It's just not worth it to me.

 

On top of that, many bands out there perform their songs one way every time. For many musical settings there's no need to be able to change the song length on the fly.

 

Greg

[Brettymike]

Hi Martin,

 

I have been looking for the very same thing for the same reason as you. Unfortunately, the only thing that comes close is the BOSS DR-3 but it has some issues in the way it switches patterns, at least for me. I bought one several years ago and ditched it because of the way it would have to complete the current patterns' full length before moving to a newly selected pattern. Didn't make for a fluid sounding rhythm accompaniment.

 

As for Alesis SR-16/18 and others that have buttons labeled fill-in, they are not so great in my opinion. Just having one variation can get monotonous. Some of the machines have 3 or 4 variations and fills but not that you can instantly recall on the fly so they are useless for your purpose.

 

If you could find an old Roland CR-80 that would fit the bill. In fact, find two and I'll buy one. Tap tempo, individual volume sliders for the kit and percussion, multiple intros, variations, fills and endings, several pads for adding hits, i.e. snare roll, crash, kick, etc. (these are nice if you don't want to trigger an actual fill but just want a brief accent). I used one for years with a trio (keys, bass and sax) and it worked great. I wish I still had it.

 

On a side note, I e-mailed Yonac Software, the makers of iOS apps like Magellan and Galileo which I own and are very cool by the way, with the suggestion that somebody needs to create a pre-programmed drum machine app. Why no one makes an app like this is beyond me.

 

I also have an arranger module called the WK-2MA from GEM that I have used during solo gigs where I wanted some rhythm backing. You might find one of those used. It is easy to turn off the bass part and accompaniment tracks so you just get drums. Though the price may be restrictive.

 

Good luck in your search.

 

Are you saying the earlier Drum machines are better than the latest machines??.

 

Brett.

[DaveMcM]

I would think you would want the current pattern to end before switching to the new pattern (assuming that a verse, chorus, intro, etc., are each a fixed length).

 

Greg

 

I'll try to explain as I remember it; Let's say a particular pattern that you want to use for a number of different songs is programed at 8 bars. Now let's say you want to add a fill in one of those songs at bar 6... the fill is not going to play at bar 6 even though you pressed the fill-in button toward the end of bar 5, it is going to wait until bar 8. Like I said, it has been a while since I had that unit but I just know that it was useless in a real live sort of way.

 

 

On top of that, many bands out there perform their songs one way every time. For many musical settings there's no need to be able to change the song length on the fly.

 

That's true, but then again many don't. Especially when doing a solo gig it is nice to be able to change things up a bit based on what is happening audience-wise or even just for my own satisfaction.

 

All of the suggestions for using a Motif, BIAB, Kronos, etc. are all good ideas. Except they don't address what the OP was truly asking for which is something to use in 'real time'. The comments regarding how difficult it would be to play, sing and control the drum machine simultaneously, well... sheez!!!

 

Back in the day I had two Mellotrons, Hammond M3, Crumar T3, Minimoog, Odyssey, Korg Poly-Ensemble S and MaxiKorg, Rhodes and a Wurlitzer. More times than not, while in the middle of one song, anytime I had a free hand it was busy setting up whatever was not being used in that song to be ready for the next song on the set list. Oh yeah, I also sang in that group, albeit mostly backup. My rig looked fairly impressive, and was so much more satisfying than using one or two keyboards like today. Granted a single modern keyboard can pretty much cover anything that could be done with all those instruments, but it is not nearly as much fun. It is kind of a shame that programmability has taken some of the spontaneity away from us, but in other ways I'm glad for it.

[DaveMcM]

Are you saying the earlier Drum machines are better than the latest machines??.

 

Brett.

 

Yeah, in this particular case.

[Tusker]

Ableton Live with a laptop?

[J. Dan]

Dan ,I am sensing that you have sold your good drum machine a while back. Which would have made it easier for you to "hit the ground running" with your new venture, getting the base rhythm and beats together on a good drum machine,and gradually bringing in the "polish" on the Kronos in time.

Would I be correct? .

 

Brett

 

Not necessarily. I won't be using it live like that...the sequence will be played in a linear fashion. Depending on the song, it could potentially be faster to use a pattern-based sequencer or drum machine to build it, but then you still have to get it into the Kronos along with the other tracks. It's really almost just as quick to start out in the Kronos and just use copy/paste (of multiple tracks), rather than moving stuff around between different pieces of gear. Actually, I think i still have the MMT8 in storage somewhere. I didn't own the HR-16, my buddy did and we just hooked them up together.

[RABid]

Used to do this with an Emu Command Station and a MIDI foot controller for stepping through patterns. Now I would probably just use Ableton Live and a MIDI foot controller.

[I-missRichardTee]

Hey RabID you have misspelt spelling ha ha

Does anyone have experience using Ableton NOT as a DJ but for backing tracks??

[DaveMcM]

Hey RabID you have misspelt spelling ha ha

Does anyone have experience using Ableton NOT as a DJ but for backing tracks??

 

I'm not sure she is using Ableton, but it is still kind of interesting-

 

[video:youtube]

[Tusker]

Does anyone have experience using Ableton NOT as a DJ but for backing tracks??

 

I used Live with a drum and keys duo. You can label sections (an arrangement comprised of multiple loops such as bass, drums, percussion and a comping instrument) of your song, and trigger them with midi note-ons or CC's. I was using an extra keyboard (not the akai controllers). It's a very flexible and useful device. Finding specific loops can be a challenge for some genres. I ended up using drum construction kits to build the loops I wanted in Acid and then moved them to Live.

[Martin42Cross]

OP

 

Such thoughtful and astute responses and suggestions. I will enjoy working out a solution that works for me.

Many Thanks