OT: Why aren't more conservatives against Bush?

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

I'm curious as to why conservatives tolerate

things in Bush's policies that are so contrary

to mainstream conservative ideologies.

 

For example, Bush is NOT a fiscal conservative.

His administration has turned what was a huge

budget surplus into a $250+ billion deficit.

Regardless of what you feel the reasons for this

might be, it does not represent a conservative

approach to budgets. It's analogous to living

off of credit cards, hoping that someone else

will pay them off later.

 

Bush actively courts the religious fundamentalists and

the radical right wing part of the Republican

party. These people have traditionally represented

only a minority of the Republican party, and

yet they hold more power now than they have...

er...well, since Reagan. Bush Sr. was a little

less tolerant of them.

 

Bush is certainly not a conservative on the

environment. I wouldn't put conservation, for

example, as a high priority on his list.

 

Bush is not really an advocate of free trade.

His favored brand of capitalism seems to be

crony capitalism, wherein insiders with access

have advantages in the market.

 

I could go on, and I could elaborate on the

above. But I really see Bush as more of a

radical right winger than a traditional

conservative. Is the only reason that

moderate conservatives support him is that he's

not a Democrat?

[Jode]

Basically, yeah. He's doing a good job on the war on terror, and spending his ass off at home. Since security is most people's top issue these days, they grin and bear his domestic policies. The farm bill, the prescription drug bill, teh campaign reform bill, and the education bill are about as un-conservative as you can get.

[coyote]

You need not elaborate. You've nailed it right here:

 

Originally posted by Macartie:

But I really see Bush as more of a

radical right winger than a traditional

conservative. Is the only reason that

moderate conservatives support him is that he's

not a Democrat?

The "old conservative" school is gone. In its place is the 'neoconservative' movement, which has a different vision of the world than the old-guard conservatives. The old guard was about keeping order in a changing world. The neocons are about making fundamental (and often radical) changes in the world.

 

Where the old guard saw military action as a neccessary evil, the neocons favor assertive action to expand American hegemony. Where we once feared the "domino effect" of Communist expansion, the neocons seek to topple those dominos in the other direction and plant governments friendly to America in every corner of the world.

 

Where the old guard saw less government as a good thing (and even feared the rise of the military-industrial complex), neocons see the safety net of the New Deal as a bad thing and seek to shred it. The fundamental belief underlying this is: "Safety nets erode initiative". Therefore, Social Security and Medicare are to be bankrupted as soon as possible. Wonder how we're going to pay for the $500B expansion of Medicare which just got signed? Don't worry about it: we will never pay for it as it will topple under its own crushing debt and therefore be dismantled. It will now be up to each of us to provide for our own well-being until we die.

 

The neocon movement disdains the public school system. It would prefer people be educated in private (often religious) environments. That's why in the past decade you've seen a rise in private and home-schooling coincide with a 'voucher' movement, at the same time as public school requirements are raised even as funding for public schools is cut. The old guard wanted more emphasis on the "Three Rs" and on values - they weren't seeking to destroy public schooling.

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

The "old conservative" school is gone. In its place is the 'neoconservative' movement, which has a different vision of the world than the old-guard conservatives. The old guard was about keeping order in a changing world. The neocons are about making fundamental (and often radical) changes in the world.

I disagree that the old conservative school is

gone. In my opinion, they still make up the majority

of the Republican party. What I think is happening

is that the moderate conservatives are turning

blind eyes & ears to the radical ideas of the neocons. They prefer Bush, warts & all, to

any non-Republican. It speaks volumes about the

limitations of our two-party system.

[strat0124]

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/12/int03326.html

 

This explains some of it..........

[Zeke Smith.]

I'm fairly religious, but I do believe that it should stay the hell out of government. Anytime anything approaching a theocracy has arisen in history anywhere in the world, it has proven disastrous for both the nation-state AND for the religion.

 

Religion shouldn't regulate government anymore than the government should regulate religion. This does not mean that religious people and their beliefs should be absent in government, but it does mean that there should never be government policies which have their fundamental basis in religion or which are fundamentally religious in nature. I think that the hypersensitive "a-religious" tendencies of the judicial system kind of miss the point on this one though.

 

Neoconservatism is interesting in that it claims to be for less government bureaucracy and intrusiveness, except where those very things reinforce the tenets of neoconservatism. I'm thinking about the military-industrial complex, laws relating to certain medical procedures, and "faith based initiatives," among other things here. The irony.

 

There's a lot of people who would love to see a sensible alternative to Bush, including myself. The other party isn't serving up any truly viable alternatives though, IMO.

[Philter]

Originally posted by Geenard:

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/12/int03326.html

 

This explains some of it..........

That was an interesting interview. I'm for Howard Dean for the very reasons that the article mentions, which is that he's actually enough of a loose cannon to actually put the truth out there and stop pussy-footing around it.

 

Even if Dean loses, the important thing is to get the truth out there, onto the public stage. The Republicans don't give a shit about the little guy, and we need to get that out into the public dialogue.

[declan]

My Father and Uncle are hard-core neocons. My Dad has a lot of reservations about the war in Iraq, but my uncle how is ex-military is livid about the war.

 

His particular reasoning is that Afghanistan should have required our complete attention and this is a prescription for disater. He also thinks Bush's "Premptive War Doctine" is crazy.

 

So I doubt there is as much certainty among conservatives as you might think. Many are reserving judgement and that includes my Dad.

[Saint Johnny B]

Bush says one thing, then does the opposite. In my book that's called a liar.

 

Bait and Switch

Bait and Switch

"Bait and Switch Bush"

 

That ought to be his new name.

[Dan South]

I think that a lot of conservative Americans DO have issues with Bush's policy, but we don't hear from them. The extremist Bush/Gingrich/Fox News crowd controls the airwaves. So far, the old guard distrusts Bush LESS than they do the left, so they put up with his inane (and insane) policies - suspension of due process of law, anti-privacy legislation, pre-emptive invasions, etc. Things will have to get a bit worse before the old guard centrist conservatives realize that the lunatic fringe in the White House is NOT good for America. Let's hope that it happens before November.

[Saint Johnny B]

Dan,

 

Some big business people are starting to get nervous about the loss of civil rights because it means more access to "sensitive business information." Additionally, when you have one inside business group which excludes other business groups from the sweet deals, then it creates conflict. And that means money starts pouring into the other side's coffers. When Hallibuton gets it all because they own Dick Cheney, other business leaders become angry and hateful. And traditional conservatives are very angry with Bush as well.

 

It's no wonder when you have a criminal enterprise occupying the White House.

[wireline]

Only speaking for myself, a very socially conservative Republican:

 

I don't agree with President Bush 100% of the time. For example, we I believe we spend more than we should, often done in the name of appeasement to the moderates...and other issues...

But, he is our President. I voted for him not because of one or two litmus test issues, but for the overall ability. He does exactly what I expect him to do: lead, and not follow the current polling results as did his predecessor.

 

The difference is simple, really: Many Conservatives often times prefer to voice their opinions at the polls{/I], instead of internet, talk radio shows (which I listen to but don't feel any need to call), editorial pages, and soap boxes.

 

If the silent mainstream of conservatism doesn't approval overall, Bush will ge gone.

 

Again, the question was, "Why don't more conservatives oppose the President?" and not "lets look for more ways to villify him." As do most conservatives, I encourage anyone unhappy with the current situation to do something other than talk about it. There exists a vehicle for change; one just has to be smart enough to know when and how to use it.

 

Ken

[Philter]

Originally posted by WireLine Studio:

Only speaking for myself, a very socially conservative Republican:

 

I don't agree with President Bush 100% of the time. For example, we I believe we spend more than we should, often done in the name of appeasement to the moderates...and other issues...

But, he is our President. I voted for him not because of one or two litmus test issues, but for the overall ability. He does exactly what I expect him to do: lead, and not follow the current polling results as did his predecessor.

 

The difference is simple, really: Many Conservatives often times prefer to voice their opinions at the polls{/I], instead of internet, talk radio shows (which I listen to but don't feel any need to call), editorial pages, and soap boxes.

 

If the silent mainstream of conservatism doesn't approval overall, Bush will ge gone.

 

Again, the question was, "Why don't more conservatives oppose the President?" and not "lets look for more ways to villify him." As do most conservatives, I encourage anyone unhappy with the current situation to do something other than talk about it. There exists a vehicle for change; one just has to be smart enough to know when and how to use it.

 

Ken

Then why is Bush running unopposed for the Republican nomination? Where is the alternate candidate for true conservatives?

[Dan South]

Isn't the "us versus them" model amazing? You can get people to vote for all sorts of unpopular policies if you narrow the field to two choices.

 

"Don't vote for Candidate X. He'll try to take your GUNS away!"

 

"Ooh, I'd better vote for Candidate Y even though he's a corrupt, spendthrift, reckless war monger with a plan to dismantle most of my consitutional freedoms. I wouldn't want to lose my GUNS!"

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

If the silent mainstream of conservatism doesn't approval overall, Bush will ge gone.

Because they will vote for a Democrat instead?

I think this is unrealistic.

As do most conservatives, I encourage anyone unhappy with the current situation to do something other than talk about it. There exists a vehicle for change; one just has to be smart enough to know when and how to use it.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Talking

about politics is a vital part of the democratic

process. (Screaming matches are another story.)

In my opinion, political

participation should not begin and end with the voting booth. This should apply to everyone

throughout the political spectrum.

[Dan South]

Good points, Mac!!

 

Uninformed voting is not desirable. Discussion sharpens our awareness of the candidates and what we expect from them.

[miroslav]

<<< "Then why is Bush running unopposed for the Republican nomination? Where is the alternate candidate for true conservatives?" >>>

 

Latest polls:

 

59% Give overall approval to Bush

 

51% Think Bush is improving the Economy

 

59% Think the Iraq war was the right thing to do

 

62% Think the Iraq war will be good for the long haul

 

So...why would anyone on the Republican side want to oppose Bush...???

 

I think he will crush Dean, because most of the country does NOT want a left wing extremist running this country.

Hell...even Clinton looks down right conservative next to Dean…who seems to be living in some 60's time warp with his ideas!!!

Dean will never see the inside of the White House…unless he gets a tour!

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

80% of illiterates can't read

 

93% of percentages lack 7%

 

42% of 0 is still 0

 

Umm...please stay on topic. This isn't a question

of poll popularity. This isn't a Bush vs. Dean

thread. This isn't even about liberals vs. conservatives. The question in this thread is: why isn't Bush less popular among conservatives for the policies his administration has done that aren't strictly conservative? Such as Bush's lack of fiscal conservatism?

[wireline]

Originally posted by Macartie:

If the silent mainstream of conservatism doesn't approval overall, Bush will ge gone.

Because they will vote for a Democrat instead?

I think this is unrealistic.

 

Who said anything about democratic? There are other alternatives, and if the RNC feels a need, they will encourage an alternative candidate...

 

As do most conservatives, I encourage anyone unhappy with the current situation to do something other than talk about it. There exists a vehicle for change; one just has to be smart enough to know when and how to use it.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Talking

about politics is a vital part of the democratic

process. (Screaming matches are another story.)

In my opinion, political

participation should not begin and end with the voting booth. This should apply to everyone

throughout the political spectrum.

Discussions are great...I engage in them because I enjoy the information exchange, and can do so without interjecting idiot remarks ("Jail Bush Now," and that kind of stupidity.) But, the ultimate measure is open minded candid discussion before, during, and after the election process. If I (personally speaking) did not enjoy discussions, I would not participate in these forums, as inane and groundless as they can occassionally be.

 

As I said, a LOT of conservative discussions about politics and life in general occur in nearly every walk of life; many way out of the general public's view. I think everyone talking more than a passive interest in these matters needs to read the opposing viewpoints to fully understand the issues. The problems with net discussions, though, is that there are by its very nature a lot of fanatics (on either side of the fence) that post idiodic remarks, un-developed theories they swear are truth, threats, resort to namecalling, etc., and really, who has time for that?

 

K

[miroslav]

Sorry...but it's a rather silly and subjective topic...asking why don't more people dislike someone...???

 

I was presenting actual current facts...polls are factual to a point.

Though I'm sure in these types of threads facts are of little interest because they do not lend themselves to daydreaming and speculation.

 

My point is that it is becoming obvious (though most Dems/Libs hate to admit it) that a LOT of people ARE behind Bush and DO approve of his Presidency...which really does answer your questions…though you may not like the answer.

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

My point is that it is becoming obvious (though most Dems/Libs hate to admit it) that a LOT of people ARE behind Bush and DO approve of his Presidency...which really does answer your questions?though you may not like the answer.

OK, I see your point now. Thanks!

 

I do think that it's interesting that Bush

supporters assume that anyone who is anti-Bush

must be a Democrat & a liberal.

 

Miroslav, do you feel that Bush is beyond criticizing? Do you feel that all conservatives

should fall into unquestioning lockstep with whatever policies come

out of the Bush administration? Personally,

I don't find these to be silly questions.

[miroslav]

<<< "Miroslav, do you feel that Bush is beyond criticizing?" >>>

 

No, not at all, but your question that asks why don't more conservatives dislike him …already assumes that they should!

Maybe even though they may criticize him, they still like him enough...or more...than anyone else at this time…think about that!

 

<<< "Do you feel that all conservatives should fall into unquestioning lockstep with whatever policies come out of the Bush administration?" >>>

 

Again, you are assuming that all conservative are somehow being brainwashed by Bush!

That truly does sound like a typical left-wing liberal spin...that ahhh…"conspiracy theory" crap again!!!

 

Isn't it just possible that the majority of people in this country these days ARE a bit more conservative than they are liberal?

 

I know these forums tend to lean more to the liberal side of things...but that's JUST here on these forums...so don't assume that the whole country is anti-Bush, and that some how they are just too hypnotized by some conservative extremists to do anything about it or to dislike Bush publicly.

 

It just might be that the majority DOES prefer things a certain way...and that way is NOT the way of Dean or the left wingers.

But...November 2004 will clarify things for a lot of folks, I'm sure!!!

 

OK…I've been staying away from these political merry-go-round threads for the last couple of months…so I'm outta' here before the tide comes in!

[the stranger]

Simple answer to original question:

 

Brainwashing. Conditioning. Overexposure to mainstream media. Wholesale manipulation of the populace.

[Dylan]

My entire family is fairly conservative and no one approves on how he's running the show currently. I'm not anti-bush or anti-anything, but I sincerely hope he's not re-elected. Why don't more people speak out? Fear, mostly. Fox News and other media outlets have done a great job at racking up the hate and fear to those that speak their mind. Which is so amazingly ironic considering that just about everyone had a feild day with the Lewinksi scandal. No one was accused of being anti-whatever when they voiced their disgust with Clinton at the time. And yes, I was disgusted with Clinton during his tenure.

[Lee Flier]

I hear ya Dylan. Most of my conservative friends don't like Bush. They feel that he spends like a Democrat and is too radical in all the wrong areas.

 

I still have a hard time believing that Bush was even considered a serious candidate by the Republicans, let alone that he's actually President. It just baffles me. If McCain had been the Republican candidate, I'd have voted for him. There are other conservatives worthy of the job, but not Bush.

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

If McCain had been the Republican candidate, I'd have voted for him. There are other conservatives worthy of the job, but not Bush.

Lee, Miroslav is going to accuse you of being

a left-wing conspirator. How dare you speak

ill of Bush! That McCain, though a Republican,

is probably a communist in hiding! I'll bet

McCain is secretly working for Dean!

[Chuck Moore]

There are several things about Bush I don't really care for, the largest of these beeing the out of controll spending. I am a card carrying partisan, and freely admit that. I'm somewhat dissapointed with my party of late for the above mentioned reasons. I think we aren't standing for the smaller limited government that Gingrich championed in 1994, or that Reagan led in the 80s. Many other conservatives also feel this way, but the options are a) to abandon the party and by default help elect someone you disagree with on 95% of the issues as opposed to supporting someone you agree with 70% of their positions. Or b) to continue working within the party infrastructure to pull it back in line with more conservative thinking. Most people will go with option b.

That beeing said, Bush does face a danger if he strays too far, just as his father did by breaking his tax pleadge. That is a failure to turn out the party base on election day if they are not energized. Fortunately, the dems message has thusfare been so angry and hatefull that the base likely will turn out to do battle in nov.

Add to that the dynamic of security being likely the most important issue for the campaign, and noone with any conservative credentials can seriously consider any of what they view as apeasers on the dems side. This year security trumps spending, or likely there WOULD be more voices beeing heard about the speanding.

[GZsound]

I think the "lesser of two evils" theory has a lot of merit.

 

I consider myself a strong conservative. I dislike a lot of Republican party policy..as I dislike a lot of Democratic party policy.

 

I disagree with a lot of what Mr. Bush has done..for example the war with Iraq. I could only hope there was some long range goal for going to war that I didn't know and wasn't told..

 

With the recent co-operation of Libya, I'm beginning to wonder if the war wasn't a better idea than I thought.

 

As to voting.. I usually vote conservative ideals rather than republican ideals. I don't believe in making abortion illegal, and I also don't believe in letting your 12 year old daughter get an abortion without parental permission like the liberals suggest.. so I vote the lesser of two evils.

 

I prefer personal responsibility. I do not believe socialism is the way to solve our nations problems.. Government social programs are filled to the brim with waste and fraud. I do not believe in the concept of honesty in any political party. It is all about the power.

 

I am a strong military supporter and thus tend to vote for Republicans. It just seems the Democrats want us to be a nation with no defense.

 

Government spending is out of control no matter what the party affiliation of the white house. Local, county, regional, state and national government spending is a complete a total farse foisted on the American public by power hungry politicians who don't give one damn about us.

 

The Democrats or rather the liberals want to rewrite history, want to remove all our Christian based moral codes and symbols, want to restrict freedom of choice for our kids education, want the countries work force to belong to a union that can give the politicians money without their members permission, support the American Trial Lawyers Association and the inability to put in place any kind of rational legal system, supports the Teachers Union who's only goal in life is to keep classrooms stuffed to the walls, keep the number of teachers down, increase costs to the parents, etc.

 

And I am not happy with the direction the liberal courts are taking us. There are not going to be any criminals anymore. Victims will be punished, the police will be rendered helpless, and the judicial system will constantly turn criminals loose to take another crack at us.

 

On the other hand, extreme religeous right members make me nuts, just like the extreme folks at PETA, Sierra Club, etc. I have very little tolerence for the fringe of any society. Gun toting survivalists are no different than Eco-terrorists.

 

So when I vote, I have to make a decision based on the larger picture and based on the direction I want the country to head.

 

I hate the NAFTA agreement, I think this administration sucks at emigration policy..but they all have let us down in the name of votes..

 

I can only vote for the lesser of two evils. Take Howard Dean and George Bush.

 

Howard Dean has thus far, only told me what he hates about Mr. Bush. Howard has made it clear he wants the UN to protect us.. That is simple nonsense and scared me to death. Howard Dean wants to make the US a union only work force, wants to repeal the tax cuts and increase the tax on the "very" rich. Redistribution of wealth will not work in America and punishing the successful somehow seems un American at best.

 

I can only presume he would continue the last administrations policy of giving the environmentalists everything they ask for. We can't afford to loose millions more acres of forest to fire because some radical environmental group wants a forest free from human contact.

 

However, I do like the fact Howard Dean is in very tight with the NRA.

 

So you pick your subjects that are important, you try to find those who best support at least the majority of your positions and you vote..

 

The best thing anyone can do is vote on actual issues.. I have never voted for or against anyone because I hate them, or they weren't good looking enough, or they weren't the best public speakers. Just the issues.

[Saint Johnny B]

There is no simple answer to this. You could say that a number of reasons have come together to bring about the state where no one is a strong enough conservative to challenge Bush's liberal policies.

 

You could simply say that conservatives as a group are weak and cannot control Bush. Bush is out of control.

 

As for the people who like guns, Bush and his Regime's attack on civil rights will make it far easier for the government to eventually confiscate your guns, they are gathering data and building massive computer data bases, all without warrants issued by a court of law. All without your knowledge or permission. Bush is out of control.

[coyote]

I'm no fan of the Bush Admin, but some equal time is called for here. Clinton did much more than Bush in eroding the 2nd Amendment. Did his success in doing that help the Bushies determine they could undermine other Amendments without paying a price?

 

BTW, we are all complicit. Government now knows they can take our rights and liberties at will. All they need is some safety/security spectre hanging around. Lessee.... the "presumed guilty" stance toward DWI (aided & abetted by Mothers Against Drunk Driving) accompanied by instant confiscation of your property (car), no smoking in bars "to protect the health of eempoyees", forcrd usage of motorcycle helmets even the only head you can crack is your own..... YOU AND I have willingly traded our freedoms for the ILLUSION of security.

 

Originally posted by Johnny B:

As for the people who like guns, Bush and his Regime's attack on civil rights will make it far easier for the government to eventually confiscate your guns, they are gathering data and building massive computer data bases, all without warrants issued by a court of law. All without your knowledge or permission. Bush is out of control.