Roland V-Combo VR-09

[HammondDave]

The real news is if Roland proves its poor customer service reputation has changed and fixes the bugs in its products. For you and everyone else who bought this board, I hope so...

 

 

Why do you hope so? I mean, thanks for having our back and all, but I chose this board knowing what its issues were, and not expecting them to be fixed.

 

Really? Call me crazy, but for $999 I expect a product to be bug free. Actually, even for $100 I expect a bug free product. I really hate when manufacturers release products that are not ready for sale... and when they don't move quickly to fix them.

 

What do you think is taking so long? Casio (a much smaller company) came out with bug fixes almost immediately. And they even have someone dedicated to this forum to monitor user issues so they can quickly respond. Don't see Roland doing the same.

 

So yes, I hope they fix these issues. Because its the right thing to do.

 

Finally, as long as customers accept bugs and inferior products, companies like Roland will not bother to fix them.

[jcazzy]

... The Casio PX-5S has been out only a few weeks longer than the VR-09 and it has been updated several times now. ...

 

This is not criticism, but why has the PX-5S had so many updates after the initial release? Rush to market to beat the competitor, bad software or what? Then again, that could be great customer service in fixing the problems that shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

I've had a bit of experience with writing computer programs, where after introduction of a new release, someone on the shop floor complained about it not doing this or not doing that. No matter how hard I tried, I could not test for everything that the user would try to do with the program before implementing it. I see a bit of this here in the posts.

 

The keyboard feel, perfectly legitimate complaint. I have a bit of arthritis in my hands so a softer feel of the keys works to my advantage. I imagine the VR-09 keybed to be similar to my GAIA, which is a lot like my '73 ARP Odyssey.

 

On another point, should we bash the Mellotron because of what it is? Just a taped loop of instruments playing over and over! I love the sound of it but in reality, it does not sound as good as my cheap-ass Yamaha YPG-235 for recreating the actual sounds of strings/flute/choir.

 

Sorry 'bout that, just my opinion!

[HammondDave]

 

 

On another point, should we bash the Mellotron because of what it is? Just a taped loop of instruments playing over and over! I love the sound of it but in reality, it does not sound as good as my cheap-ass Yamaha YPG-235 for recreating the actual sounds of strings/flute/choir.

 

Sorry 'bout that, just my opinion!

 

Actually, for its time, nothing came close to the Mellotron for recreating orchestral sounds. In fact, nothing else did this (except for the Chamberlin, which the Mellotron was designed after).

 

However, we need to judge current products based on the current standards and technology. I thought that we were way past the cheap waterfall keyboards when the Hammond XK2 came out like 14 years ago... Every Hammond clone after that used waterfall keyboards making it a standard feature. Same thing for real drawbars. But manufacturers discovered that it was cheaper to make draw-faders... and why not put a crappy diving board keyboard on a "cheap" instrument? Someone will buy it.. Guess they are right.

[Ekewaka]

To note the PX-5S upgrade was mostly to tweak the sounds, adding new ones and add functionality. I didn't see any major problems with the upgrade. Furthermore, lazy me has yet to upgrade my PX-5S with the 1.1 upgrade, has worked flawlessly for many gigs so far. I have yet to see all kinds of missing functionality or bad implementations in PX-5S compared with the info in this VR-09 thread.

 

Casio has indeed raised the bar for what a good product is for $999. It's quite doable: good engineers, good marketing, good product support, a keen eye on what keyboard players need and manufacturing smartness to make an excellent key bed with good profit margins.

 

PS: As for mellotrons, get IK Multimedia's Sampletron and a good midi keyboard.

[B3bluesman59]

Like when is Roland is going to come out with a bug fix?

_________________________________________________________________

IMHO 99% of the "bugs" don't mean anything to the most of the buyers of the VR 09. Most buyers want a low cost keyboard that is easy to load in/out....and one that they can punch in pianos and organs on the fly. All the other high tech "bugs" they could care less about. As I have said before...the VR 09 will be a huge success with the mass market buyers/players,

[jcazzy]

 

 

On another point, should we bash the Mellotron because of what it is? Just a taped loop of instruments playing over and over! I love the sound of it but in reality, it does not sound as good as my cheap-ass Yamaha YPG-235 for recreating the actual sounds of strings/flute/choir.

 

Sorry 'bout that, just my opinion!

 

Actually, for its time, nothing came close to the Mellotron for recreating orchestral sounds. In fact, nothing else did this (except for the Chamberlin, which the Mellotron was designed after).

 

But you make a good point. We need to judge current products based on the current standards and technology. I thought that we were way past the cheap waterfall keyboards when the Hammond XK2 came out like 14 years ago... Every Hammond clone after that used waterfall keyboards making it a standard feature. Same thing for real drawbars. But manufacturers discovered that it was cheaper to make draw-faders... and why not put a crappy diving board keyboard on a "cheap" instrument. Someone will buy it.. Guess they are right.

 

Excellent point. As one can see, I use a Korg CX-3 for my organ sounds. I love the fact that it is very close to how a console Hammond is set up with the controls and with the addition of a Neo Ventilator, sounds very good in the mix. Excellent waterfall keyboard also. IMO, key feel means a lot to some players.

 

And I agree, it is a time warp of when the Mellotron was the most realistic keyboard for the sounds it produced. I owned the first version ARP Omni in the '70s and it was tits or so I thought!

 

Just a thought. I wish I could try the VR_09 to give an honest opinion of it. The closest GC and Sam Ash is 90+ miles away. Even if I could try one, I'm so old school that each keyboard I play has to be a different sound like in the old days. And damn, my back does hurt most of the time!

 

 

[HammondDave]

 

As I have said before...the VR 09 will be a huge success with the mass market buyers/players,

 

If "success" means sales, you are probably correct...

[Craig MacDonald]

Hammonddave say it isn't so! Success equals sales? What's this world coming to...

[HammondDave]

Hammonddave say it isn't so! Success equals sales? What's this world coming to...

 

Yeah.. I know...

 

Reality TV is also "successful"... What is the world coming to...???

[brenner13]

Just got back from a little studio jam with a guitar player. The VR worked flawlessly as a clone wheel. Played some blues, dabbled a bit of jazz, and lots of 60's/70's rock. Guitar guy liked the EP's okay, but loved the pads and synths. Organ was definitely the highlight. To his ear the rotary sim was okay but a bit too subtle. Tweaking the overdrive, tone, and compression helped the rotary, but changed the careful balance I had for the organ tone. Hmmm...still got some fiddling to do.

Overall, a fun and informative day with the new V-Combo. Think I'll try it with an RT-20 next time.

[High Diving Act]

This thread sure is interesting. lol. A ton of passion, polar perspectives, and luckily, some useful information to help narrow the field for my next purchase. I have 1100 bucks to spend.. and most of the qualities the vr09 toutes are in my wheelhouse of requirements. I've yet to trial a unit as they will not arrive in waterloo until June but.. this thread and YouTube videos like this one..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9JKOxxiowM&feature=youtube_gdata_player have given me a good overview of what to expect. Craig.. Brenner.. I appreciate your feedback on this unit. I haven't found a "Roland" forum on the vr09. Can someone point me in the right direction. I wouldn't mind being another voice for product improvement as I believe Roland is on the right track here... and I wouldn't mind paying an extra couple hundred bucks... for this keyboard with 73 keys.. a stronger AP patch.. and fixes to the inherent glitches with this current release. 54 pages of thread... man.. even the guys that are bashing this product can't deny excitement that Roland has ignited here.

[Tobias Åslund]

If "success" means sales, you are probably correct...

Hammonddave say it isn't so! Success equals sales? What's this world coming to...

It is my strong opinion that these post together belong in the Hall of fame...

 

I nominate them for posts of the year!

[Mike Martin]

... The Casio PX-5S has been out only a few weeks longer than the VR-09 and it has been updated several times now. ...

 

This is not criticism, but why has the PX-5S had so many updates after the initial release? Rush to market to beat the competitor, bad software or what? Then again, that could be great customer service in fixing the problems that shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

To set the record straight, there has been only one update. This update added many new features and improvements. Off the top of my head I don't think there are any "bug fixes" at all. There improvements to some slider/knob assignments which frankly were my own error and I wouldn't consider them bugs.. The updates that were included were almost entirely based on feedback we received at NAMM and during the sound design process.

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Just got back from a little studio jam with a guitar player. The VR worked flawlessly as a clone wheel. Played some blues, dabbled a bit of jazz, and lots of 60's/70's rock. Guitar guy liked the EP's okay, but loved the pads and synths. Organ was definitely the highlight. To his ear the rotary sim was okay but a bit too subtle. Tweaking the overdrive, tone, and compression helped the rotary, but changed the careful balance I had for the organ tone. Hmmm...still got some fiddling to do.

Overall, a fun and informative day with the new V-Combo. Think I'll try it with an RT-20 next time.

 

Brenner I would be VERY surprised if the RT-20 sounds better than the internal sim on the VR-09.. Personally, I don't think it's anywhere near the quality of the VR-09.. I think it was released in and around 2006 and that's a 7 year old version of Rolands leslie sim... based on my ears there's no comparison between the two, and logic would also suggest that in 7 years the Roland leslie sim has improved!!

 

Now that said, sometimes a particular sim might shine, given a pairing of specific keyboard with one particular set of monitors or amp and a specific leslie sim.. so maybe something magical will happen when you plug in the RT-20, but I highly doubt it.. (so much so that I really wouldn't even bother but that's just me)..

 

Keep us posted on how it turns out. Maybe there's some strange magic there.. ;-)

[Craig MacDonald]

... The Casio PX-5S has been out only a few weeks longer than the VR-09 and it has been updated several times now. ...

 

This is not criticism, but why has the PX-5S had so many updates after the initial release? Rush to market to beat the competitor, bad software or what? Then again, that could be great customer service in fixing the problems that shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

To set the record straight, there has been only one update. This update added many new features and improvements. Off the top of my head I don't think there are any "bug fixes" at all. There improvements to some slider/knob assignments which frankly were my own error and I wouldn't consider them bugs.. The updates that were included were almost entirely based on feedback we received at NAMM and during the sound design process.

 

 

This may not be true with the Casio PX-5S (and that's good to hear Mike!) but from my perspective it definately WAS true with the Hammond SK1. By the time I bought mine, which was maybe 6 months after the first one was released, it was already on 3 or 4 (can't recall for sure) and now it's at release 7, and if I'm not mistaken the high trigger issue (that received a lot of negative feedback from end users) was only just fixed in release 7 (maybe it was 6 but it only recently fixed and this product has been out there for 2 years now I think).

 

I do think that there is a balance/strategies here that likely dictate the approach with respect to the state a product is released.. SO if a company is losing market share (I suspect this was the case when Hammond released the SK1), or don't have a product in a particular market segment (which may be the case here with the VR-09) companies tend to rush things out.. knowingly releasing it early, with a strategy that they'll fix the problems with updates disguised as new function.

 

On the other hand you have companies releasing products that are merely an update to a product that is already successful (for example the PX-5S is an update of a product that is/was quite successful like the PX-3), and there's no real hurry to get the product out because it may only mean marginal increase in revenue. In this situation when you have a very successful product in a particular segment, you may tend to take more time to refine the replacement product.

 

However, despite whatever scenario you're in when you roll the product out, once you do, all bets are off and you begin to get user feedback and perhaps you even discover bugs that were unknown. However, I suspect that WHEN you bring out an OS Update is dependent upon a lot of factors.. are the flaws or feature issues impacting sales..? If it is I suspect you rush the fixes out... On the other hand if there are some issues but it's not impacting sales, and production levels aren't meeting demand for the product, you don't rush out numerous and repeated OS updates for each and every issue. You take your time, gather the fixes into one big update, that you test thoroughly and then you roll all fixes out at once.

 

I'm not sure what approach Roland will take with the VR-09, but something tells me that this product will be very successful and whatever issues the VR-09 has will not impact the sales of the product to any significant degree.. And we do see here on this thread a huge amount of interest in the product, and my impression is that what little supply there is, people can't find them and they're flying off the shelves.

 

So do I expect a quick fix to these annoying issues.. no probably not, but do I expect a fix.. absolutely.. the VR-09 is designed to allow for an easy OS upgrade from USB stick, and Roland seems to be "re-committing itself" to the VK engine with several new products that feature it.. I think the popularity of the VR-09 will drive the efforts of the engineers.

[Craig MacDonald]

This thread sure is interesting. lol. A ton of passion, polar perspectives, and luckily, some useful information to help narrow the field for my next purchase. I have 1100 bucks to spend.. and most of the qualities the vr09 toutes are in my wheelhouse of requirements. I've yet to trial a unit as they will not arrive in waterloo until June but.. this thread and YouTube videos like this one..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9JKOxxiowM&feature=youtube_gdata_player have given me a good overview of what to expect. Craig.. Brenner.. I appreciate your feedback on this unit. I haven't found a "Roland" forum on the vr09. Can someone point me in the right direction. I wouldn't mind being another voice for product improvement as I believe Roland is on the right track here... and I wouldn't mind paying an extra couple hundred bucks... for this keyboard with 73 keys.. a stronger AP patch.. and fixes to the inherent glitches with this current release. 54 pages of thread... man.. even the guys that are bashing this product can't deny excitement that Roland has ignited here.

 

I think what you're saying is absolutely true, despite the warnings of a couple individuals about the keyboard and/or overall build quality, there is a huge interest in a product that delivers a high quality hammond organ tone (with drawbars and a reasonably good leslie sim), and the fact that it has AP/EP and other samples along with a VA synth for such a low price (it's been selling for $850 this last week). I also think that the vast majority feel that the keyboard and build quality is appropriate at this price point, and the proof of this will be the number of VR09's that are sold. We also see a lot of positive feedback from owners here who are suprised at how the weaker sounds AP/EP actually sit well in the mix, and the feedback they've received on how great the keyboard sounded.

 

Time will tell.

 

I think this is the link for the blog..

http://www.rolandus.com/blog/2013/05/13/v-combo-vr-09-made-for-live-playing

[HammondDave]

 

Time will tell.

 

 

Now that is something we agree on!

[Stokely]

I'm seeing a couple used vr700's for sale. I love that keybed, I can play piano pretty well on it and it feels great for organ. That said, is this one a major upgrade over the vr700 as far as synth sounds, piano or any other ensemble sounds? Weight is a non-issue for me as long as we are not talking 45+ pounds...in fact some of these boards are almost too light and threaten to fly off stands.

[HammondDave]

in fact some of these boards are almost too light and threaten to fly off stands.

 

For some reason, I don't think the VR-09 would hold up very well under these conditions...

 

[video:youtube]

[Craig MacDonald]

I tend to think that the VR-09 is more likely to be played Hendrix style, high up in the air, behind the head, sideways, and upside down.. I think I like that better than being squashed by a hammond.

[Craig MacDonald]

I'm seeing a couple used vr700's for sale. I love that keybed, I can play piano pretty well on it and it feels great for organ. That said, is this one a major upgrade over the vr700 as far as synth sounds, piano or any other ensemble sounds? Weight is a non-issue for me as long as we are not talking 45+ pounds...in fact some of these boards are almost too light and threaten to fly off stands.

 

Stokely, I think the organ is better primarily because of the leslie sim. I would think that the synth sounds are better and with the iPad editor they are no doubt significantly more tweakable than straight samples in the VR700. The sampled sounds like AP/EP/Strings/Brass etc are probably comparable.. I would think they're the same samples, but I can't be sure of that.. The Roland rep told me that the AP/EP's were Rolands best samples from the GX Digital Piano.. that said they seem like pretty short loops.. (but I've never been a big fan of roland Pianos).

 

Maybe someone else has some thoughts on the VR-09 sounds comparied to the VR700? I also agree, the VR700 had a great keyboard. MAYBE Roland will come out with a new model of VR that uses it.. that would be nice!! But I suspect you'll pay more!!

 

Regarding the lightweight VR-09 and moving around.. There is no question that the insrument is so light that it can easily slip off the stand.. When I was peforming with it on Saturday night it kept shifting around (turning clockwise, or counter clockwise), however I blamed my stand a bit for that because the rubber bumpers are properly positioned for my much deeper MOJO so the VR-09 wasn't nicely seated on 4 rubber bumpers.

 

If you play the VR-09 vigoursly, you probably want to secure it to your stand with velcro!

[brenner13]

Wonder if insurance will cover what ever happens to my VR09 after I try to emulate Mr. Emerson at the next gig? Probably won't be able to get the knives past security now-a-days.

[Stokely]

re: slippage

 

Our drummer is a cabinet maker and when he heard me complain about my board slipping on my z-stand (not a light board but it was hard bottom on metal arm) he gave me some strips of cork with adhesive on the back. What a difference. I had to trim just a bit as they were about a millimeter too wide but my boards don't move a fraction on that stuff.

 

The danger with light boards isn't slippage but bumpage. If someone (probably me) backs into a corner of my Kurzweil or studiologic controller you'll hear "ouch". With say an m50 or mox6 you might be watching a keyboard tip to the ground...plus the heavier boards help anchor the stand.

 

At 2am looking at a loadout over rough terrain my opinion on light board changes completely of course

[eric]

You guys worried about slippage need to use velcro! I've been doing that for years and it will withstand any amount of bumpage or potential "fall off the stand" scenario.

 

On the VR-09, I had a friend call me the other day as he is looking to replace his old Alesis QS6 that he's been using in a reggae/ska band for such a long time that it has become very worn out. He told me his budget and I know the sounds he needs, plus he is also a singer and horn player, so he does not play keys all night and is less particular about action (if he was and could afford it, I'd steer him to Hammond or Nord). I recommended the VR-09 to him and he is trying to find one. He heard from a couple of local places (Guitar Center, Sam Ash) that these are in high demand and heavily backordered. Is this really the case?

[voxpops]

The updates that were included were almost entirely based on feedback we received at NAMM and during the sound design process.

This really does fill me with confidence in respect of the PX-5S - so much so that I've grown impatient waiting for it to show up locally and placed an order. At the end of the day, even if it doesn't work out for me, I have no regrets supporting a company that is so obviously listening and trying to satisfy the (million-and-one) demands of working musicians.

 

 

I do think that there is a balance/strategies here that likely dictate the approach with respect to the state a product is released.. SO if a company is losing market share (I suspect this was the case when Hammond released the SK1), or don't have a product in a particular market segment (which may be the case here with the VR-09) companies tend to rush things out.. knowingly releasing it early, with a strategy that they'll fix the problems with updates disguised as new function.

I'm possibly less sanguine about this than you, Craig. Although I knew about most of the bugs (thanks to you and a few others) going into the VR-09 purchase, I think it's pretty shameful for a company like Roland to release a board (at whatever price) with a list of very obvious bugs/flaws that could, and should have been remedied prior to placing it on the market. It smacks of disdain for the end-user, which is so much in contrast to Casio's approach.

 

With each passing year, I'm becoming less enchanted with Roland's strategy, even though I'm very keen on their SN sound engines. I can understand those who say that if Roland won't listen, vote with your wallet, but given my personal need for lightweight instruments that fulfill a need, I am prepared to live with the VR's shortcomings. But I think Roland, Yamaha, Korg, Nord and Kawai are all going to have to watch their backs in future - there's a rival that means business...

[HammondDave]

You guys worried about slippage need to use velcro!

 

Slippage? I am more concerned about...

 

[video:youtube]

[voxpops]

heard from a couple of local places (Guitar Center, Sam Ash) that these are in high demand and heavily backordered. Is this really the case?

I suspect that most companies send a smallish quantity of new product out, and then gear up production according to demand. It seems that most new products are backordered for a while after the initial run has been sold. The first VR batch has probably been sold, and there will now be a delay before new stock arrives. It's likely that there is significant demand, but the absence in stores is not necessarily indicative of how large that demand is.

[voxpops]

I thought it worth pointing out that the old Roland HP3000 I bought back in the '80s featured "patch remain," allowing notes to be sustained smoothly while new patches were selected. If it was possible to program an instrument to do that with '80s technology and software, how hard is it to do it now?

[mobi]

in the '80s featured "patch remain," allowing notes to be sustained smoothly while new patches were selected.

 

Kurzweil's PC3 allows that, remember all my Ensoniq boards had this feature as well

[HammondDave]

Seems to me that any "live performance" keyboard should have this feature. But I also thought that any Hammond clone would have a waterfall keyboard as well. So I guess my expectations are just too high.