Roland V-Combo VR-09

[Craig MacDonald]

Following up on my earlier comment...

 

I'm starting to think my needs might be better served by an MX61, which has comparable sounds in every area except organ.

 

I just auditioned one, and wow was I wrong. Even through a Vent, the organs on that thing were just unplayably horrible. If you ever want a stunning reminder of exactly how spoiled we've become in the clonewheel era, just try going back to rompler organs.

 

So I now have a VR09 on order. Craig, would you mind sharing your organ tweaks for it at some point?

 

FKS, I'm happy to share and it was pretty simple, I started with the "Bay Area B3" registration, which was a pretty nice sounding Hammond sound to begin with and I took it from there..

 

At first I thought it was too bassy and muddy so I dropped the "low Gain" a couple notches.. and I raised the "upper gain" a bit and then I had this great bright sound but it was a little harsh, so I started over started playing with Tone controls and Compression. I found that by increasing the compression a bit I could get some additional scream in the upper octave without it being overly bright. So I went back and dropped the upper gain down. With the lower gain at 0 I found a sweet spot in the tone control where the bass was ballsy but not boomy.

 

So right now here's where I'm at with the VR-09. I have the low gain set to 0 the upper gain set to -5. I've found a sweet spot for the tone control that I like and I've dialed up the compression to get a nice scream in the upper octave. Problem is that the Tone/Compression controls are dials and there is no numeric representation for it, so I can't tell you the exact setting. However, I believe that the tone control is almost all the way to the left (7-8:00), and I think the compression is around 1-2:00..

 

The tone control is a little weird.. it's muddy in the middle and turning it to the right emphasizes certain frequencies, and to the left different frequencies. The muddiness in the middle is the reason that my first instinct was to drop the low gain down, but that wasn't the answer to getting a good Hammond sound. It seems that you have to balance the gain controls with the tone control to really dial in your organ.

 

Leakage and key click you have to set to taste and this often varies based on what you're listening through. I'm using a pair of QSC K10's and I have the leakage set at 14 (max is 31) and On click is 10 (max is 31 as well) Off click level is set to 8 (again max 31).

 

So those are my current settings and how I arrived at them. Hope this helps, and I hope you like your VR-09 as much as I do.

 

I will probably tweak this again later.. as I try different things, but I quite like this setting.. and I found it very interesting that increasing the compression seemed to help the overall tone so much, especially helpful in making the upper octave scream. Learn something new every day.. (although this could just be a quirk of the VK engine).

[simchaleh]

hey everyone. ive been following this keyboard for a while and i had a question that i hope someone here can answer.

. basically what i want for me is the good quality organs,piano,editable trippy synth pads/leads and the on the fly tweaking. the moment i saw the namm video of the roland vr09, i right away thought this is exactly what i want. but recently ive been thinking maybe to put in the extra $ and go for a more serious workstation like the kronos or jupiter.

my question is, that i really have no need at all for most of the built in workstation parameters like recording etc. and i really like the portability of the vr09. are the workstations (kronos or jupiter for example) also so easily tweakable on the fly to get for example from a super trippy piano from just a regular piano patch, on the fly like i saw in the roland clip online?. if i did have the extra $ together, is there still an advantage in the vr09 other than its light weight, for what im looking for? thnks!

sB

[Craig MacDonald]

Sb, I own a Kronos, it has 9 different synth engines and its 16 part multitimbral. It is dramatically more powerful than the vr-09. It can do virtually everything the vr-09 can do and much much more! If drawbar organ is important you will probably prefer the Kronos over the jupiter because it has the cx3 engine (which is/was a hammond clone). Other than weight the only advantage the VR-09 has over the Kronos or Jupiter, that i can think of, would be ease of use, simpler interface, less of a learning curve.

[Ekewaka]

As for compression, it smooths out the dynamic peaks and valleys across the frequency range so most likely you are now hearing more high end (that was weaker in the original sound) and vice versa about the low end. Not that I would think you could get something similar done with an eq.

[Craig MacDonald]

Well I'm going straight back to my Kronos and I'm going to try adding some compression to see if I can beef up the high end scream of the CX3 engine with a little compression, because I haven't been able to quite get it with EQ.. This could be interesting!!

[simchaleh]

Other than weight the only advantage the VR-09 has over the Kronos or Jupiter, that i can think of, would be ease of use, simpler interface, less of a learning curve.

hey craig, thnks for the reply. my question is if its so easy on the fly to adjust all the paramaters on the kronos like it is adjusting on board on the fly paramaters for the vr09 without menu surfing.

the vr09 really looks nice an easy for quick changes and on the spot tweaking, but like others here, im torn between getting two light boards to make up for compromises on each one, or one big workstation but have to deal with dragging extra weight and space when not needed all the time. i really do like two keyboards since its much easier than changing paches all the time, but i usually work with a micro korg as my top tier for synth leads and other synth needs, im just not sure how compatible these two will be together if theyll fill eachothers needs, or if ill still feel like im lacking

Sb

[Josh Paxton]

my question is if its so easy on the fly to adjust all the paramaters on the kronos like it is adjusting on board on the fly paramaters for the vr09 without menu surfing.

 

It can be, once you get them set up the way you want. The Kronos has a bajillion knobs and faders and buttons, all of which can be assigned to just about anything. The upside of this is that it gives you gobs of flexibility. The downside is that it doesn't have the intuitive immediacy of the dedicated controls you find on the VR. Instead of having one knob labeled "overdrive," you have to remember which knob or fader you assigned overdrive to for a given patch. Of course the presets tend to have the parameters you want easily accessible, so unless you want to tweak something fairly obscure, chances are anything you want will be within easy reach; it's just a matter of knowing where it is.

[simchaleh]

ok i get it, the kronos is a real hardcore workstation that needs each thing to be programmed and set up ahead of time pretty much,but with much much more potential.

my only workstation i had and still lovingly use was a yamaha s80 so i kinda get the picture, but i hate lugging it around to gigs,thats why im looking for the lighter solution.

so what would you guys say, is it worth saving up for a kronos and using it as only keyboard for gigs, or going for the vr09 with a micro korg as a second tier for extra capabilities? i know its a personal opinion but im intrested in what all you guys think of the differences and why.thnks.

Sb

[Craig MacDonald]

Sb, +1 in fks's response, this is an excellent explanation of the differences! Note also that the limitation of two sounds a once may present itself as well.. there are times when i use my kronos/mojo gig rig that I have 5-6 sounds layered/split across 3 keyboards.. you can't do that with the VR-09 ( but maybe you don't need to). There are advantages to a two keyboard rig in certain situations as well, Redundancy and more keys upon which to spread splits and layers across. Hope we've helped answer your questions.

[Craig MacDonald]

so what would you guys say, is it worth saving up for a kronos and using it as only keyboard for gigs, or going for the vr09 with a micro korg as a second tier for extra capabilities? i know its a personal opinion but im intrested in what all you guys think of the differences and why.thnks.

Sb

 

SB it's very difficult for one of us to make a recommendation for you because we really don't have all the information that we would need. I think the best thing for us to do, rather than just suggesting keyboard A or B is to give you some of the questions/factors to think about.. Here's a few (and I'm sure that others can chime in with other considerations):

 

1. What inspires you.. what's making you drool? Whatever really inspires you to want to play is the right keyboard (for me it was the sound of a Hammond/Leslie, it was all I wanted, I got one and I played if for thousands of hours). You want something that will inspire you to play.

 

2. Do I want an 88 note weighted action keyboard or is a 61 note diving board style keyboard OK, or does this matter?

 

3. What style of music will I be playing so what sounds will I need to create.. (acoustic samples/electronic/synths/organ)

 

4. How many sounds will I want/need to make at once (VR-09 is limited to 2, workstations can generally handle 16)

 

5. How much keyboard real estate do I need, can I split/layer all of my sound requirements on one 61 note keyboard or do I need more room (either larger keyboard or second keyboard)

 

6. Is drawbar organ important to me, or am I satisfied to just play samples (only certain keyboards have hammond engines and have sliders/faders/drawbars to manipulate)

 

7. What's my budget, what can I afford now, how long will it take for me to save necessary cash. If I decide to wait for a year, and what will my $$ buy me then (there maybe better options a year from now.. this technology is always a moving target)

 

8. How important is ease of setup/teardown.. how much stuff do I want to carry around. You're attitude towards this will change.. today you might want to acquire stuff and build a big gig rig and then tomorrow you'll want to get rid of it and drop down to one board and a small amp (and improvements in technology means that the all-in-one boards are getting better)

 

9 Last but not least, remember that your needs change.. You may be playing piano/organ in a classic rock band now and 6 months from now you may be performing electronic music. If you envision that you may have different requirements in the near future, consider buying a keyboard that satisfies todays requirements and tomorrows as well so you don't have to spend more money down the road.

 

I think that IF you ask yourself these questions the answers will help direct you to the right board for you.

 

It also makes a difference whether or not you're keeping or replacing your S80.. so you might want to think about 2 scenarious, answering the above questions both with and without keeping it (eg if you keep the S80 you don't need to buy another keyboard with 88 note weighted action).

 

The other two other ways of looking at this decision.. first, the decision doesn't have to be either/or.. either the VR-09 or the Kronos.. it could be VR-09 now and something else later... On the other hand, you could also argue, why spend $1000 on the VR-09 now, when $2500 will get me a Kronos 61 that will satsify all of my needs for a longer time.

 

Hope this helps.

[AnotherScott]

simchaleh, if you want a higher end board that has the same kind of immediacy of operation as the VR-09, look at the Nord Stage 2-73.

[simchaleh]

hey. thnks for all the feedback.

i didnt like certain things about the nord stage. especially seeing that it cant be split.

what inspires me about the vr09 is that i really loved about the vr09 was 1)portability,2)the online demos of how easy the music was adjusted. epsecially the one where he turns a normal piano into a trippy sound and then back.

as far as the realestate and sounds, even though its only 2 tones at ones, however it looks like as with the ipad editor, since its possible to create each sound and use the waves, and add up to 3 of them, and then a layered sound would be with 6, that its possible to program nice synthy pads that im looking for.

i actualy like the 61 keys. would prefer maybe more, but for sure not 88. i do need some songs with electric trance music, but my micro korg helps with that.

i do want drawbars

thnks for all the advice. well see.

SB

 

[Tobias Åslund]

i didnt like certain things about the nord stage. especially seeing that it cant be split.

Of course you can split the Nord Stage - you can have two split points. Are your perhaps confusing it with the Electro?

[Ekewaka]

...just tried the keyboard at GC... Good sounds but the key bed indeed is pretty bad for a $999 keyboard. Roland should redo this unit.

[Marillo]

I know we're never satisfied, but I just wish this thing had even a basic arpeggiator for the VA sounds...

[Craig MacDonald]

...just tried the keyboard at GC... Good sounds but the key bed indeed is pretty bad for a $999 keyboard. Roland should redo this unit.

I'd be very Interested in what under $999 keyboard you think has a far superior keyboard??

[Ekewaka]

...just tried the keyboard at GC... Good sounds but the key bed indeed is pretty bad for a $999 keyboard. Roland should redo this unit.

I'd be very Interested in what under $999 keyboard you think has a far superior keyboard??

 

The beauty with GC is that you could walk around and try out other keyboards, stopped by MX, the low-end Krome, various other Yamahas, they all had better key beds. The Krome 61 is actually pretty interesting compared with VR-09 thanks to its far better keyboard.

 

Now I was surprised of the less good key bed on the King Korg, as well.

 

For me, the biggest issue with the VR-09 was the short response range and crammed keys. I could live with it for a $500 unit, for $999 not. Even the Korg R3 had a better keyboard.

[Dglavko]

Long & McQuade up in the north has the same advantage. I specifically tried the action on the VR09, mx's, Krome, Kronos, Stage2/kurz (which I have), electros (had); casios, sk's,"/xk's, numa's (which I crave), and found the VR action similar to the Krome (tempting yes but no drawbars!!!!!) and xf but certainly no worse. What'd I miss?

[Craig MacDonald]

If feel the same way. I've had lots of opportunity to play all of this keyboards at Cosmo music in Richmond hill and the vr-09 doesn't strike me as any worse than any other under $1k keyboard... I don't understand this criticism...

[AnotherScott]

From what I've played, my favorite keybed under $1k is the Casio XW-P1. But while I haven't yet had a chance to try it, the VR-09 seems to best it in sounds (as I would hope, for twice the price) and interface, in terms of a bread and butter gigging board.

[Josh Paxton]

I too find the VR's keyboard better than the Krome's. I was debating between the two, got a Krome, and took it back because I found the keyboard unplayable. The VR's certainly isn't top- end, but at least it didn't make my fingers want to punch themselves in the balls like the Krome did. YMMV of course.

[Craig MacDonald]

From what I've played, my favorite keybed under $1k is the Casio XW-P1. But while I haven't yet had a chance to try it, the VR-09 seems to best it in sounds (as I would hope, for twice the price) and interface, in terms of a bread and butter gigging board.

AnotherScott,

 

Myself, I wasn't impressed with the XW-P1, I thought it looked and felt cheap.. Again it's amazing how opinions vary on touch/feel of keyboards!!! This isn't just the case with inexpensive keyboards its the same with even the most expensive keyboards, so I would strongly suggest that everyone decides for themselves what they like or don't like, especially in these under $1K keyboards.

 

The one other thing I would say, and I think I'm repeating myself here, is that you can very easily get used to the feel of different keyboards. Those of us who have played acoustic Pianos, Clavinets, mellotrons, electric pianos, organs, synths etc.. know that they all have very different feels and you adjust your playing style accordingly.. Somehow we all (or most of us) just get used to them, so I am really not sure why people seem to get so fussy about whether this $999 keyboard has a better feel than that $999 keyboard? Who really cares.. the fact is that you'll probably get used to it. None of these keyboards are so bad that they're unusable, just my opinon of course, and as you can see from this thread opinons vary.

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Myself, I wasn't impressed with the XW-P1, I thought it looked and felt cheap.. Again it's amazing how opinions vary on touch/feel of keyboards!!! This isn't just the case with inexpensive keyboards its the same with even the most expensive keyboards, so I would strongly suggest that everyone decides for themselves what they like or don't like, especially in these under $1K keyboards.

I agree.

 

The one other thing I would say, and I think I'm repeating myself here, is that you can very easily get used to the feel of different keyboards. Those of us who have played acoustic Pianos, Clavinets, mellotrons, electric pianos, organs, synths etc.. know that they all have very different feels and you adjust your playing style accordingly..

and I agree, people can often adjust to a wide variety of feels, but also, it depends on what you're using the keyboard for, sometimes adjusting your playing style still won't give you the results you're after. Yes, we have talked about this a bit before, and you're never going to satisfactorily play piano on a keybed that feels like a mellotron, and more realistically, you're never going to be able to employ some organ techniques on some piano actions (at least not without shedding blood), etc.

 

So to bring this back to the situation at hand, many people are looking at low cost keyboards to try to do everything on one board... and playing piano and organ from the same keybed is a compromise and can be something of a challenge at any price point, so it's a lot to ask of a budget board. But it is the situation some people are trying to address. So my own thoughts about this are that, any budget unweighted action is probably adequate for organ/synth... the place they really fall down is piano. So if you need to play piano from your unweighted board, I would suggest three tests:

 

... pressing a single key repeatedly from soft to hard, do you get a somewhat a reasonably controllable dynamic range? Can you play a soft, slow passage and gradually increase its volume? Or is it very hard to do this without having notes inadvertently pop out much more loudly than intended (or in some more rare cases, having softly struck notes appear too quiet or fail to trigger, due to too much of an attempt to compensate for this)? It will always be more difficult to control these dynamics than on a good weighted action, but some unweighteds handle this better than others.

 

... when you strike keys further back, are they still similarly responsive, or is there much more resistance? Especially on black keys? Again, this is pretty much always a concern, I would always expect an unresponsive rear region, but the question for me here is, how much of the key is usable, how far forward do you have to stay and still get some semblance of even response?

 

... When you quickly jump to a distant key. is there enough initial resistance that an adjacent key won't trigger if you barely brush against it? (The shape of the key edge and the trigger points may be variables here as well.) This is tricky, because to some extent, the more a manufacturer tries to address this, the worse they make it for organ. So they don't want to go overboard. But if a key triggers practically by breathing on it, it can be very difficult to play some piano parts cleanly on it.

 

Of course, if you're an organ player, you should also try some smears, single-note trills and such, to make sure that the manufacturer didn't try so hard to make it viable for piano that they really reduced the organ playability.

 

Anyway, it is from this perspective that I said that the XW-P1 is the best feeling unweighted keybed I've found under $1k. For playing piano and organ from the same unweighted keybed, I found it definitely above average. (Unfortunately, the piano and organ sounds were not! But it's $500.)

 

[NeedMoreBass]

I thought the XW-P1 keybed was much better than the Krome 61. As far as feeling cheap, I thought the build quality was actually pretty good considering price, weight and materials. Casio had a chance to hit it out of the park with the XW-P1. They could have charged a little more with better pianos and organ and have a much more appealing product.

[Craig MacDonald]

Well said AnotherScott.. Good advice for someone buying thread first keyboard or their 10th!

[AnotherScott]

Casio had a chance to hit it out of the park with the XW-P1. They could have charged a little more with better pianos and organ and have a much more appealing product.

I think they did a good job with it, in that I think it's still a pretty compelling choice for $500, for non-pros or synth-centric players on a budget who still need "a little of everything." It's not really aimed at most of us here. But it would be interesting to see an "upscale" version of it, and maybe the PX-5S foreshadows a bit of direction there. Maybe an XW with 76 keys, aftertouch, expression pedal, better sounds, some sample memory, and improved screen/interface for a grand? But in the mean time, the VR-09 might be the closest thing to a more upscale XW.

[HammondDave]

Keyboardists are actually just bringing one keyboard to gigs with no backup? If it goes down, then what?

 

I played live for over 40 years and never had a backup.... Nor did I ever need one. Living on the edge, baby!

[Craig MacDonald]

I never bring an additional keyboard to a gig for backup purposes, but I try to build redundancy into my gig rig.. That's why I have a Kronos as my second keyboard on top of my Mojo... If something happens to my Mojo, I can use the Kronos CX3 engine in a pinch.. I could also use the new VR-09 in conjunction with my Mojo too... Because it also has a drawbar engine..

 

I did have a problem with my Nord C2 and had to send it in for repairs, which took a month and I had no backup drawbar organ.. This started me on the search for a backup keyboard.. Tried the Numa, SK1, But eventually settled on the Kronos, and now perhaps on the vr-09 can serve double duty, as well, I can now use the vr-09 to back up my mojo OR the Kronos in a pinch.

 

[AnotherScott]

I never bring an additional keyboard to a gig for backup purposes, but I try to build redundancy into my gig rig..

Right. I don't specifically bring a backup board, but having a backup is a side benefit of gigging with two (or more) boards.

[Charleston]

If you already have 2 keyboards at a gig, you already have a backup instrument.....the other keyboard. I'm not referring to that.

 

I'm referring to keyboardists claiming to bring one keyboard in total to paid gigs. When it goes down, then what?