How many fingers for fingerstyle?

[Eric Iverson]

Unlike a previous poster, I sometimes drop my picks and then have to fake it - of course, with another guitarist, he can keep going for the second or two it takes to pick it up.

Maybe that's why Chet used a thumb pick [is that one word or two??].

[Caevan O’Shite]

Unlike a previous poster, I sometimes drop my picks and then have to fake it - of course, with another guitarist, he can keep going for the second or two it takes to pick it up.

Maybe that's why Chet used a thumb pick [is that one word or two??].

 

I think it's any way ya wanna wordit 'n' spellit, Eric.

 

As a matter of fact, that's how and why I came to play without a pick, more or less fingerstyle. That is, years ago, if I dropped my pick, it was as if my arm had fallen off- other than strictly legato hammer-ons and pull-offs, I couldn't do a thing without a pick. So, I set out to find what I could do with my bare fingers to cover for it until I could find or replace the pick I'd dropped. Eventually I used the pick less and less, until I dropped it altogether.

 

I really like the sound of picking or plucking strings for chords simultaneously, the way notes are often sounded together on, for example, a piano, instead of the more typical washboard strrrumm from one string to the next and so on that is most often heard on guitar. It gives me all the more variation in touch and phrasing to choose from to color my playing. Of course I also still strum strings sequentially sometimes (a lotta alliteration, huh? ), as upstrokes, downstrokes, chucks, whatever; it's all colors and tones and textures and seasonings and spices...

 

ANYWAYS, being able to use up to all five picking-hand fingers (counting p, thumb) to pluck chords like that really works to my advantage. I don't happen to do a lot of 'fancy' fingerpicking using a ("ring") and c ("pinky"), simply because it isn't necessary most of the time; I usually manage with just two or three, counting p/thumb plus i ("index") and/or m ("middle"), or often even using the nail and/or finger-tip of just one, i/index, sort of like a big fat pick.

 

And then there are the big, burly, warm, fat, burnished tones to be gotten from goin' Wes with ones thumb...

[Eric Iverson]

Playing with one's thumb? John Abercrombie does it a lot. I'm sure there are other people who do it, too!

Wes sure had fine chops that way, but for me, both thumb style and using thumb picks are very clumsy. Not that I've done either a LOT; maybe with practice they'd become natural, who knows?

[Scott Fraser]

Playing with one's thumb? John Abercrombie does it a lot. I'm sure there are other people who do it, too!

 

Jeff Beck is another.

[Larryz]

And what about the other thumb? I know it's taboo to the "trained" guitarist, but I use my other thumb quite often for fingering chords and adding little bass runs...

[Fred_C]

I use my other thumb quite often for fingering chords and adding little bass runs

 

Hey Larry,

 

Yeah, me too. My acoustic blues teacher, Jerry Ricks taught me the music of the old blues masters and they often used their left thumb to facilitate the alternating bass lines.

 

For Example, finger an F major chord on the top 4 strings. Wrap your thumb around the F root on six. Play an alternating bass while playing melody notes on top. Although the 5th string is open, it really doesn't matter because the bass line is on 6 and 4. Your 4th finger is free to play other melodic tones that aren't contained within the chord shape. Works like a charm and I like it.

 

I still use this "technique" (as you observed, many players don't consider it a real technique), not only when playing "Travis style" but also when playing Jazz Chord Melody solos. It sure makes some very difficult chords much easier to navigate. Once again, if the chord root is on 6, the open and often dissonant)5th doesn't matter.

 

Regards.

[Caevan O’Shite]

And what about the other thumb? I know it's taboo to the "trained" guitarist, but I use my other thumb quite often for fingering chords and adding little bass runs...

 

I just about never use my thumb over the top of the neck (6th/Low/Bass-E-string side) to fret notes, but I occasionally use it from the underside of the neck- along with my fingers- to fret otherwise unreachable notes.

[Larryz]

1-5 x x 2 2 0

2-5 5 3 3 1 1

3-5 4 5 2 2 2

4-4 5 4 0 0 3

5-5 4 5 x x x

6-5 5 5 2 2 1

 

some examples of where I use the thumb on the sixth string...the first three chords are just adding more bass to the 9th and 7th chords (although in the 2nd chord it's adding the root tone to the no-root 9th as well), the next three chords are adding a F# bass note to open chords like D or D7 and an F to Fmaj7 (Fred's chord) during a run down or walk up...

 

 

 

[Eric Iverson]

Once in a blue moon I'll use the left hand thumb to fret, say for a F add 9 chord with a G in the bass - it's impossible to play it otherwise!

Chris Proctor in one of his instructional videos teaches this as a way to free up more left hand fingers for melodies when you're doing alternate bass.

Correct technique? What are you trying to do? Correct classical guitar technique is great for Bach but not for Albert King style blues, or vice versa.

[Larryz]

I forgot to mention another use of the opposable thumb: you can use your thumb on the 6th string instead of using bar chords allnight and relieve stress on that index finger and give your wrist a rest (helps us older monkeys)...

[desertbluesman]

Re: flamenco. In the opinion of many people, the best ever was Sabicas -

 

Early on when I was just learning my first few chords on Guitar I saw this guy Carlos Montoya play Flamenco guitar on the TV, this was back in the early 1960's. I was floored by his technique, not only was he fast and accurate, he did things I have never seen done even to this day, like playing a full chord and doing vibrato with one finger while holding the chord and on the next sweep another finger in the same chord. I was impressed. Plus he played beautifully. Very nce stuff. I don';t know how he stood up against other flamenco players but I was sure impressed.

[Eric Iverson]

I like Carlos Montoya, too, the sheer fluidity of it. He played lots of legatos with very low action.

He was controversial back in the day, from what I remember, because he played solo guitar concerts, though of course he knew HOW to accompany dancers and singers!

Some people criticized him for being a "time-breaker" because he sometimes stepped out of standard flamenco rhythms... that's not my field of expertise, LOL!

Eddie Van Halen once said he liked Carlos Montoya a lot!

[desertbluesman]

I couldn't care less whether he "stepped out of the standard flamenco rhythms", I hardly knew anything about that or guitar playing either. It was when I was first starting and everything was new to me. However I did see Carlos play on that show only one time and some 50+ years later I can still picture that moment in my mind. Very fluid, exceptionally accomplished, a complete guitar master in his field, and any criticism from his contemporaries has to stem from jealousy........

[Eric Iverson]

Jealousy IS a factor sometimes when the victim is selling a lot more records than the critic, LOL. Actually, that's not all that FUNNY, is it?

At 14 I started buying records, especially guitar records, and took out records from the library regularly, the radio, etc. Devouring everything I could about music, and it was all new to me. Lots of stuff I fell in love with then I still enjoy today, even if objectively I know some of it ain't all that great! LOL

I'm still checking out new artists and approaches to music in general and guitar in particular, not obsessively anymore; and doing more CONSOLIDATING these days.......

Re: appreciating music of other cultures (including jazz for most rockers) - a lot of your connoisseurs want things a certain way and are not open to people straying outside those boundaries, I find. OK, cool, we need the purists, too - I'm dead serious about that. I prefer the mavericks, personally, but SOMEBODY'S got to preserve the treasures of the past!

[hurricane hugo]

And what about the other thumb? I know it's taboo to the "trained" guitarist, but I use my other thumb quite often for fingering chords and adding little bass runs...

 

I just about never use my thumb over the top of the neck (6th/Low/Bass-E-string side) to fret notes, but I occasionally use it from the underside of the neck- along with my fingers- to fret otherwise unreachable notes.

 

Jake E. Lee is the only guy I can think of who would use his fretting hand's thumb the same way he'd use his other fingers - he wouldn't even have his palm behind the neck when he did it, using the side of his left thumb to fret notes. It gave him a huge span on the neck.

[Caevan O’Shite]

And what about the other thumb? I know it's taboo to the "trained" guitarist, but I use my other thumb quite often for fingering chords and adding little bass runs...

 

I just about never use my thumb over the top of the neck (6th/Low/Bass-E-string side) to fret notes, but I occasionally use it from the underside of the neck- along with my fingers- to fret otherwise unreachable notes.

 

Jake E. Lee is the only guy I can think of who would use his fretting hand's thumb the same way he'd use his other fingers - he wouldn't even have his palm behind the neck when he did it, using the side of his left thumb to fret notes. It gave him a huge span on the neck.

 

I don't do that very often, but it does help now and then.

 

I do often play without my hand or thumb on the back of the neck, though- with my fretting-hand thumb sticking up past the treble-side of the fretboard.

[Larryz]

And what about the other thumb? I know it's taboo to the "trained" guitarist, but I use my other thumb quite often for fingering chords and adding little bass runs...

 

I just about never use my thumb over the top of the neck (6th/Low/Bass-E-string side) to fret notes, but I occasionally use it from the underside of the neck- along with my fingers- to fret otherwise unreachable notes.

 

Jake E. Lee is the only guy I can think of who would use his fretting hand's thumb the same way he'd use his other fingers - he wouldn't even have his palm behind the neck when he did it, using the side of his left thumb to fret notes. It gave him a huge span on the neck.

 

There are probably a lot of fretting hand thumb tricks out there like this one or like Jimi Hendrix using his thumb on both the 5th and 6th strings...I think that maybe the reason I use the thumb on the 6th string to add more bass or to do a little bass run, is that I play solo a lot and don't have the luxury of a bass player with me all of the time... :idk

[hurricane hugo]

don't know if it's cool to mention the competition here, but GW magazine did a big story on Jake during the Ultimate Sin tour ('86-'87); there were lots of pictures...I think "Lightning Strikes" was the song where he did it.

[Gifthorse]

I use a pick sometimes, in which case I hybrid pick using my pinky also. When I use just my fingers I use all of them.

 

I know a guy here from Spain, he is a good flamenco Spanish styled guitarist. I am no expert on that genre so I am not exactly sure but his ability to play rest strokes amazes me. I can't do that at ALL.

 

For myself Leo Kottke shifted my entire perspective on guitar. I saw him live in Ann Arbor and it was mind blowing.

 

Probably the most impressive finger style player I have heard is Tommy Emmanuel. There is this guy here that is a friend of a friend. Everytime Tommy comes to Taipei he interviews him and hangs out with him and learns stuff.

 

I love Leo Kottke but only some of it.

 

 

 

Someone posted this a couple years ago I think, incredible playing.

 

 

[Scott Fraser]

And here we see the great Chet Atkins reach his thumb over & fret the low E string, so if Chet does it, the technique purists be damned.

[Fred_C]

Hey Scott,

 

Absolutely wonderful! Chet really could lay it down couldn't he!

[Larryz]

Thanks for posting Chet using his thumb Scott...Chet is still one of my favorite guitar players...

[Scott Fraser]

Thanks for posting Chet using his thumb Scott...Chet is still one of my favorite guitar players...

 

Credit goes to Gifthorse for finding that splendid YouTube.

 

And I have to say, since this thread started I've found myself using my "frettin' thumb" a bit on some gnarly jazz voicings to add a tonic, something I don't think I ever did before.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Thanks for posting Chet using his thumb Scott...Chet is still one of my favorite guitar players...

 

Credit goes to Gifthorse for finding that splendid YouTube.

 

And I have to say, since this thread started I've found myself using my "frettin' thumb" a bit on some gnarly jazz voicings to add a tonic, something I don't think I ever did before.

 

 

 

As for "purists" and whether or not the thumb should be used for fretting from any side of the neck, I would say, whatever works for the given individual is fine. I use it occasionally in my own way, but I personally don't care for wrapping the thumb over the top of the neck onto the 6th and 5th strings when I play- it literally "cramps my style". I need for my fretting-hand thumb and grip to be widely spaced, relaxed and loose and free, sometimes completely free of the neck altogether. When others play, I care only about the music.

 

The slightest exception might be when someone is teaching/learning; proper form and technique should generally be learned FIRST, so that bad, limiting and potentially (literally) harmful habits are not ingrained. THEN one should freely experiment and find whatever can be used to achieve one's goals!

[Larryz]

I think you should always teach proper technique and give the student a good start. Sometimes "purists" make rules like "I don't want to see your thumb" that create long term limiting harmful habits as well for those that are more interested in other genres that may allow for some thumb freedom...It's like telling Louis Armstrong he can't sing with that raspy voice and not to puff his cheeks or he'll never be great...

[Eric Iverson]

The real trumpet "bullfrog" was Dizzy Gillespie, but his puffed out cheeks didn't prevent him from being a fantastic player!

 

BTW, for styles using a lot of wide string bending, isn't having your thumb toward the top of the neck PROPER TECHNIQUE? It's a lot harder to bend wide intervals with classical guitar position, add vibrato etc. In my experience anyway!

[Fred_C]

The real trumpet "bullfrog" was Dizzy Gillespie, but his puffed out cheeks didn't prevent him from being a fantastic player!

 

IMO, it was Diz's ability to fill his cheeks with so much air that contributed to rather than detracted from his stellar abilities. I think those bulging (sp?) cheeks were the result of thousands of hours of intense practice.

[Caevan O’Shite]

BTW, for styles using a lot of wide string bending, isn't having your thumb toward the top of the neck PROPER TECHNIQUE? It's a lot harder to bend wide intervals with classical guitar position, add vibrato etc. In my experience anyway!

 

I do a lot of oblique-bend triple-stops and other whole-step, m3rd, Maj3rd or greater bends and wide, wild vibrato, and I usually have my fretting-hand thumb pointed towrds the headstock with just its tip/pad contacting the back of the neck near the middle of the neck- sometimes just above middle, sometimes below, sometimes off the side of the neck pointed towards the ceiling. It varies, it "depends", and it's automatic- I don't think about it or anticipate a necessary position move or anything...

[Eric Iverson]

For me, all that stuff is automatic, too - though I don't do a lot of string-bending, since my stage guitar is an Alvarez acoustic - which gets a great electric sound with a Di Marzio pickup through a Fender Princeton if you turn the mids and bass all the way up and the treble all the way down, believe it or not. But it's hard to bend strings on!

"Proper" technique is fine if it gives you the "proper" sound... but that's a subject for another thread.....

[theTragicRich]

Self taught, so I know technique is terrible... but I used to be able to work the pinky in. Lately, if I play fingerstyle it's PIMA. Still horrible at it though.