OT: Jazz piano teacher, what to expect?

[Allister]

as the title says, I have finally bitten the bullet and decided to get some help with my playing. I have been self taught for around two years now after stopping classical piano lessons and I have taken it as far as I can on my own.

 

so my question is this: what can I expect from a good jazz piano teacher in terms of time during lessons and things I will be set to do in my own time?

 

Thanks, Al.

[marino]

Jazz piano teacher here. I'd say, try to find a teacher who has a long experience in teaching, and knows how to shape the lessons to follow your needs.

Note: Let the *teacher* decide what your needs are! (After having spoken with him about your tastes and goals).

For example, if you're eager to work on Chick Corea's style, but your teacher says that you need to work a bit on bebop harmony and phrasing beforehand, listen to him/her. In certain things there are no shortcuts.

In the same way, if you want to learn stride, but your left-hand tecnique is not up to it, you'll need to work on that.

 

Expect to have to work at home quite a bit, both alone and with some kind of recorded aid. Don't forget to record your home performances sometimes, and listen to them critically.

Follow your teacher's advice about when it's the right time to find a couple of mates to start playing in group.

 

Set aside some time every day to just play what you feel, developing your instincts. Also, listening to a *lot* af jazz in different styles is paramount.

 

If your teacher wants to include permanent doses of blues *and* classical music in your lessons, I'd say stick with that teacher.

 

 

[Allister]

Thanks for the reply! if this teacher is anything like you have just outlined, ill be in heaven!

I just don't want to turn up and say "I like Chick Corea's solo in Spain" and him give me a puzzled look!

 

I have a taster lesson booked for this Tuesday so ill be sure to keep everyone posted.

[Bobadohshe]

I just don't want to turn up and say "I like Chick Corea's solo in Spain" and him give me a puzzled look!

 

If that happens you've just had your last lesson with this teacher. In fact you haven't even had your first and you get your money back.

 

Carlo's advice is excellent.

[MuzikTeechur]

If the teacher doesn't mind, record your lessons. You will learn much from a second, third, fourth listening. I still have recordings of my lessons in college and they are a cherished resource when I need to "go back to the well."

 

Also, expect to learn LOTS and LOTS of theory. Chords, functions, extensions, voicings, modes, key areas, scales, analysis, transcription... In order to be a competent jazz player you MUST know theory inside and out - and then be able to effortlessly recall it while playing. It is one thing to like "Spain", a second thing to be able to play it, and a third thing to have been the one to have come up with it in the first place.

 

If your teacher doesn't suggest it, pick up a copy of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Piano Book" and inhale it.

 

Do not expect to play like Bill Evans (or anyone else for that matter) right off the bat. It takes years of dedicated practice to become an accomplished jazz pianist.

 

I'll get flamed for this, but after years and years of lessons, tuition, teaching, and playing, I will say that jazz piano is far and away harder than any other playing, from a mental aspect. And, it's quite technically challenging as well.

However, if this is something you want, the payoff is well worth the effort.

 

Best of luck.

[LX88]

Keep in mind that many accomplished players are not neccessarily good teachers.

 

I saw this over and over again when I was in college. The college had hired "experts" with master's degrees to try to explain complex concepts to people who were just starting out. The expert teachers could not figure out why the subject was so hard for beginners.

 

Why they don't seem to remember is how many hours and years they had have had to absorb the information and put it into practical application.

 

Definitely ask to see the teacher's study materials before you begin lessons with any of them. Then ask them how they plan to apply this material to making music that YOU want to play.

 

Many jazz books focus on scales but I have rarely seen one that focuses on how to connect the scales within rapidly changing chord structures. Or to any actual pieces of music for that matter.

 

Building jazz solos often involves connecting intervals of a chord or scale to other chord /scale intervals that appear in an evolving set of changes. You can't just run scales! You have to connect them in logical ways.

 

For example Charlie Parker starts of his famous solo on "Koko" on the Major 7th interval of a Bb chord and plays in Bb for 2 bars, but then he resolves it to the 4th of F minor seventh in the third bar and to the #5 (or b13) of Bb 7 in the 4th bar.

 

In the 5th bar he resolves to Eb Major 7th.

 

So from this we can study an actual 4 bar (masterfully) improvised phrase that goes from Bb Major 7th ( 2 bars) Fmi7 (one bar ) Bb 7 (one bar ) to Eb Maj7 resolution.

 

This solo displays as much use of arpeggios as it does scales.

 

I would think that a great teacher would be able to address some understanding of what a master improviser was thinking when they created a masterpiece, and then explain it in understandable terms.

 

Genius could possibly be defined as simplifying or clarfying what seem to be complex concepts. There is a real art in being able to do this, but many people simply do not know how to relate it to beginners or those who are in early stages of learning.

[Joe Muscara]

First of all, this topic is in no way OT, and I'm not sure why you would have thought it is. [Peeve of mine around here. Sorry, nothing personal.]

 

All good advice above. As far as wanting to see teaching material as LX88 states, not all teachers have much as far as that printed. Mine doesn't, yet he has taught for years and run jazz programs at major universities. It's a good thing to check if they have it, but if not you'll have to judge based on the lessons themselves.

 

Remember that nothing is set in stone. If you and the teacher aren't on the same wavelength for whatever reason, move on. Hopefully you know that from your classical lessons.

 

If the teacher works a lot, you may need to be a bit flexible as far as scheduling and lesson times. I can't tell you how many times this has happened with mine. Unlike classical teachers who usually just teach, mine does lots of writing, gigs, and studio sessions so sometimes rescheduling happens despite his best efforts.

 

As far as your own time, you should be spending lots of time at the piano, having fun and improvising at whatever level you are right now. Your teacher may want to spend some lesson time having you play things like that, maybe along with him or with Band-in-a-Box or something similar to see where you are in your improvisational skills. That will give him some good indications on where you need work.

 

Remember that there is no destination, this is a journey. Sometimes, you may feel like you're never good enough because he's always telling you something else you need to work on, but it's more likely he's moving on from things you're doing well and just not mentioning it. Ideally (for me, anyway), he'll say, "great job on this, now you need to work on that." However, sometimes they'll just say, "you need to work on that." Maybe this is just me and revealing too much of my own insecurities.

[GovernorSilver]

All good advice above. As far as wanting to see teaching material as LX88 states, not all teachers have much as far as that printed. Mine doesn't, yet he has taught for years and run jazz programs at major universities. It's a good thing to check if they have it, but if not you'll have to judge based on the lessons themselves.

 

My jazz piano teacher didn't have any of his own published teaching materials either. He had me pick up Alfred's All-In-One Basic Adult Piano Course (first two volumes) and Bill Boyd's book Jazz Bits & Pieces at a local music shop when we started lessons.

 

I have to admit I scratched my head at the choice of the Bill Boyd book. My thinking at the time was "When do I get to play stuff like Herbie and Chick? This looks like kid's stuff!". But I see now it was a way to introduce some jazz phrasing into my piano playing - a way that wouldn't have been as intimidating as transcribing solos off of records or something like that. Also, the jazz phrases in this book are built into fully arranged pieces, so I wouldn't have had to deal with matching transcribed phrases to appropriate chord progressions.

[Allister]

First of all I would like to thank everyone for sharing such a wealth of knowledge, its really helpful to get some guidance from people much more experienced than myself.

 

Muzikteechur:

Recording the lessons would be a really good idea for me. I sometimes tend to get tunnel vision at the keyboards when i'm getting instructions flung at me

I also picked up a copy of Mark levine's theory book. looks like its going to be something ill be taking in for quite a while.

 

LX88:

I completely agree and I believe you made a very important point there. most of the really great players around my area simply cannot tell me what scales,modes or techniques they are using as they don't even think about it any more!

I think transcribing and analysing the "great" solos in jazz would be a really beneficial exercise for me to do in my own time once I have some theory under my belt. What's the point in re-inventing the wheel?

 

Joe Muscara:

looking back I have no idea why I posted this as OT. I have a habit of doing strange things like that as i'm sure you will all get to know (and probably get very tired of!)

 

Like you quite rightly stated, if the connection isn't there I will need to move on. As much as I would probably like to stay around to avoid confrontation ultimately it will be a waste of my time and also the teachers.

I can completely relate to the insecurities thing, I think with me it comes down to setting myself targets and not seeing practice as a chore like I used to. I have my goal, I have

someone giving me the tools to get there. All I need now is to be able to kick myself up the backside every time I start slacking!

 

 

 

[Allister]

I think for me its going to be a good think to take a few steps backwards. I can muddle my way through some standards, but what's the point in building a house on sand ?

[David Loving]

Do you know of any jazz studies courses at local colleges in your area?

[Allister]

I'm afraid not, the uni I am going to only does a Bmus degree. but one can focus on jazz.

[David Loving]

so why don't you take lessons from one of the professors or instructors, or just take piano as one of your courses? Do you have a good base to build on? If you doubt that you do ('few steps backwards') you ought to pick up the classical lessons. I am a little amused at critics of piano teachers' methods, when the critics merely need to find whomever is a good fit for them and do whatever their teacher says to do, Asking "why" will never get you anywhere. If your teacher thinks you need to address something, just address it. Maybe you just need some piano chops ( not just hand speed, but brain mapping). It always takes time! Just my take on it. Otherwise, learn it off of records.

[torhu]

In my experience, when people say they want to learn "jazz improvisation", I have a pretty hard job in front of me. And so do they. But I'll give you an idea of how I might start someone off:

 

One thing you could try out for starters is just getting used to changing scales when improvising. Try a simple vamp: Just play a C chord for two bars, then F7 for two. Loop for as long as you like, then play each chord for only one bar when you want to up the difficulty a bit. Play the chords with your left hand. Play each chord once, or maybe once every bar. When you get used to the chords and the scales, you can optionally stomp your foot to keep the beat.

 

You are probably able to figure out the scales to use just by looking at the notes in the chords (there are several options, try them out). A little trick for making this sound good is to use pentatonic scales. For the C chord the scale is C D E G A, for the F7 you simply replace E with Eb. Just play 2-3 note phrases, try to figure out what sounds good and what doesn't. By doing this, you have already started developing your vocabulary as an improviser. "Vocabulary" is a key term, a lot of improvisation is basically stringing phrases you already know together to form a new whole.

 

Why have I not mentioned the names of scales or any theory at all yet? Because that's the easy part, turning it into music is the hard but interesting part

 

The next step would be to go from just changing scales to actually "playing the changes". Which means being familiar enough with chords/scales/arpeggios to make the changes come out through just through the melodic line you are playing. In my experience, this is not something that comes easy to most people. It can take a lot of work to internalize everything you need to be able to do this. But bit by bit, you will get there.

 

And then there is the phrasing, rhytm, building a solo, technique, chord voicings, etc. It's not something you can just learn in a few months. And most of it comes from your own understanding, the teacher can only guide you and give you excercises that will help you develop the skills. And your main job is to practice enough to get all of this under your skin, your teacher will tell you when you are ready for the next "level". Don't focus on Spain, focus on your excercises and look for those little signs of improvement.

 

Anyway, good luck.

[Musicale]

Excellent advice above, as always. I think you may want to listen to the guy play, if you like how he plays then it's a good sign. He should also listen to you play and assess you skill level. It's almost like you need to audition for him. Presumably you can read music well, this can be helpful to get you up and running. Bring a fake book and play a few pieces out of it, just the head to start and then play the chord progression with nice voice leading.

 

Sometimes your first teacher does not work out, so shop around to see what is available.

 

Regards,

[CEB]

I was not a music major in college. What I took was a class called MUS 496 - Independent Studies. This was private lessons and was a repeatable class I took for 4 years and I played in the university Jazz bands. But with the cost of tution these days it may be cheaper to find something outside the college.