Joe Muscara Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Does anyone else find it funny that they modeled the pianos, EPs, Clav, and Vibraphone, but sampled the synth sounds? "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Does anyone else find it funny that they modeled the pianos, EPs, Clav, and Vibraphone, but sampled the synth sounds? Considering it has a weighted action, no. In an instrument like this, the synth sounds are bonus. I would be surprised if there were any better than GM quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 It sort of sounds like something in between the Silver Model on the V-Piano and a Yamaha CP-80. I'm glad to have heard this demo; I'll stick with the Roland RD700NX and Pianoteq. Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 It sort of sounds like something in between the Silver Model on the V-Piano and a Yamaha CP-80. I'm glad to have heard this demo; I'll stick with the Roland RD700NX and Pianoteq. It might be premature to judge a piano with an array of tweakable parameters from a single youtube live demo... Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Does anyone else find it funny that they modeled the pianos, EPs, Clav, and Vibraphone, but sampled the synth sounds? Considering it has a weighted action, no. In an instrument like this, the synth sounds are bonus. I would be surprised if there were any better than GM quality. +1. You need to consider the percentage of users who'd buy a weighted 88 DP for its synth engine. Now weigh that against the R&D costs of modeling synths. Actually, the bigger concern would be the CPU costs of running a modeled synth layer, and how that would compromise the processing power available for the pianos. Which is, of course, the main draw in this board. Sampling solves both the problems, while adding value to the board. Still, business considerations aside, I can see where Joe's coming from, there is a bit of irony to it... This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I can see where Joe's coming from, there is a bit of irony to it... This is all I'm sayin'. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 It sort of sounds like something in between the Silver Model on the V-Piano and a Yamaha CP-80. I'm glad to have heard this demo; I'll stick with the Roland RD700NX and Pianoteq. It might be premature to judge a piano with an array of tweakable parameters from a single youtube live demo... Perhaps not, Scott. Not all of us are tweakers, some of us are preset jockeys who want the tone to be perfect out of the box. Not that there's anything right or wrong with either category, it's just that we're a diverse group. As always, there's a trade-off. With sampling, you're at the mercy of manufacturers, hoping that the next product will be the ideal tone you're looking for. But at least, you don't have to spend time tweaking it. With modeling, you're free to design and sculpt your own sound. But it costs patience, time and effort. If you're a preset jockey, this product is simply not right for you. This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 If you're a preset jockey, this product is simply not right for you. That's a broad generalization I'm sure isn't true. Like the other modeled pianos, I'm sure this will come with presets for various tastes. The issue is, will any of those strike your fancy if you don't want to tweak? "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 It might be premature to judge a piano with an array of tweakable parameters from a single youtube live demo... Perhaps not, Scott. Not all of us are tweakers, some of us are preset jockeys who want the tone to be perfect out of the box. Not that there's anything right or wrong with either category, it's just that we're a diverse group. ... If you're a preset jockey, this product is simply not right for you. Again, I think it's too soon to make such a determination. Just because you can tweak all those parameters, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll need to. The assumption here seems to be that the piano is limited to that one piano sound (as evaluated in a live youtube recording, yet), or you have to tweak something yourself. For all we know, there are a dozen "pre-tweaked" piano variations to choose from before you have to delve into tweaking it yourself. Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 If you're a preset jockey, this product is simply not right for you. That's a broad generalization I'm sure isn't true. Like the other modeled pianos, I'm sure this will come with presets for various tastes. The issue is, will any of those strike your fancy if you don't want to tweak? Of course, there will be a bunch of presets, and yes, you'd expect them to cover the more common tastes. My comment was more of a gut reaction to anyone who decides to make a judgement call based on a 60 second youtube demo at a trade show. I'd be surprised if they'd find any of the other presets interesting... This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Actually, the bigger concern would be the CPU costs of running a modeled synth layer, and how that would compromise the processing power available for the pianos. Which is, of course, the main draw in this board. I doubt it´s a matter of DSP power w/ this technology, running physical modeled piano and synth engines on these SHARC DSPs. As a comparison, a small XITE-1D runs several synth engines as well as a physical string modelled engine simultaneously on 4 of these SHARCs and together w/ DSP FX, dynamics and mixer. OTOH, it can be, their piano models consumate much DSP already,- but running more models would probably reduce polyphony 1st. I´d say, their choice, using a sample engine for bonus sounds is by reason of developement time and costs. They have their piano models but no synth models at hand actually,- so throw in sampleplayback to have some more in addition. And, if you layer something to acoustic/electric piano sounds,- the layer usually will be quiter and in the background anyway w/ the modelled piano sound up front,- so it´ll work even w/ mediocre samples live. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 It might be premature to judge a piano with an array of tweakable parameters from a single youtube live demo... Yes, the technical term for this is "premature evaluation." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgoo Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Yes, the technical term for this is "premature evaluation." I was pretty impressed with the way it could resize the length of the piano & the sonic difference it provided. Seems like this would be an ideal instrument for recording MIDI info & then during the mix process tweaking away to get it to sit just right in the mix. Custom Music, Audio Post Production, Location Audio www.gmma.biz https://www.facebook.com/gmmamusic/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 There really is no such thing as true physical modeling. It's all just mathematical models of abstractions of physical properties. ... I think they're guilty of marketeering, which makes claims that are stretched to the greatest possible arguable position, rather than anything near the objective truth. Which is par for the course. Jeff, I think you're mixing up some terminology. Of course, the 'physical modeling' you're perhaps referring to - like ball-and-stick models in the chemistry lab - are meaningless in the context of DPs. Computation of sound waveforms using the equations describing the physics of a sound production by a musical instrument, is also technically called physical modeling. In the scientific literature, no less, and as far back as 1986; also check out the Wiki article. As far as the 'multiple' thing, he's obviously talking about DPs and pianos' context. Even the Yamaha VL1 from 1994 had multiple physical models of other instruments. So they're not even guilty of marketeering... I brought this up because I was reminded of your comment while looking up the history of physical modeling. And wow, its fascinating, especially the VL-1 stuff. From the paper I linked above: "The computation can be very expensive, but the result can be very lifelike...As computation costs decline, physical modeling is likely to increase in popularity". It's interesting that quarter of a century later, DPs based on modeling are still not yet mainstream... This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I was pretty impressed with the way it could resize the length of the piano & the sonic difference it provided. Seems like this would be an ideal instrument for recording MIDI info & then during the mix process tweaking away to get it to sit just right in the mix. If it's recording, this functionality has long been there with Pianoteq and other software pianos. Though not everyone has been happy with the piano tone presets. As mentioned earlier, it may take considerable tweaking to get what you're looking for... This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I was pretty impressed with the way it could resize the length of the piano & the sonic difference it provided. That's what she said? :idk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Jeff, I think you're mixing up some terminology. Of course, the 'physical modeling' you're perhaps referring to - like ball-and-stick models in the chemistry lab - are meaningless in the context of DPs.I admit I'm being sloppy with terminology, because the terms are used sloppily to begin with. What it ain't is anything like finite element modeling, which is the kind of physical modeling they do to determine the properties of physical objects on a computer. Admittedly that would be impractical for audio. My point was simply that a lot of things can be called "physical modeling" and it can be very abstract. The "physical model" of a tuning fork is a sine wave with exponential decaying amplitude. And that's a pretty damn good model! And there's the in-between world where samples are processed to generate abstracted properties files, such as with TruePianos and evidently Kronos EPs, if I understand what I read correctly. I'll have to check out the modeled Rhodes on the Yamaha CP line. But of the ones I've played, samples sound far more realistic, at the cost of tweakability. In the end, it's not the method but the results that count. There samples I dig, samples that suck, models I dig, and models that suck. Interesting to hear how they do what they do, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbowen Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I got the info it has 6 SHARC chips inside which is lots of DSP power,- comparable to JB Solaris..... A.C. - actually, I asked them directly, and found out that they are not using SHARCs, but the latest chip from Texas Instruments (6 as the number is still correct, though). JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 A.C. - actually, I asked them directly, and found out that they are not using SHARCs, but the latest chip from Texas Instruments (6 as the number is still correct, though). JB Thx for info John,- I´ve read that over at PlanetZ or Xited,- can´t remember accurately now. Does it make a big difference ? It also explains, these are faster than the 333MHz SHARCs and why nickD wasn´t able to find such specs for SHARC devices (see post #2397822 - 03/23/12 05:56 PM on page 2 of this thread) Did you play the Physis Piano ? Anyway, I hope you had great success w/ Solaris @Frankfurt Musikmesse. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fortner Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Intrigued. Gotta say the panel design reminds me of a Bang & Olufsen stereo from the late '80s, but that's not a bad thing. Depending on the US price, a stage piano that offers modeling-based grand, Rhodes, Wurly, and Clav could be a real coup. I'm already trying to see if we can get a review sample this side of the pond. Stephen Fortner Principal, Fortner Media Former Editor in Chief, Keyboard Magazine Digital Piano Consultant, Piano Buyer Magazine Industry affiliations: Antares, Arturia, Giles Communications, MS Media, Polyverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 Gotta say the panel design reminds me of a Bang & Olufsen stereo from the late '80s,Thank you - I knew it was ringing some kind of old school bell A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I'm already trying to see if we can get a review sample this side of the pond. Here's hoping that you do! Looking forward to that review... This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicsant Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheelHead Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Saw this mentioned in the other forum. Check out the banner at viscount.it I'm guessing a fully model stage piano - could be interesting! I was quite impressed by Viscount in the late 90's when I first heard the Viscount/Oberheim MiniGrand module. I still have mine, although I never play it these days. Pianoteq 4 is scheduled for release very soon and said to be imminent. (apologies if 4 was mentioned previously I did not read whole thread) I have the Roland V Piano and absolutely love it but it would be a task for the average person of 2012 what-is-heavy values to gig. The question could be who has put the most development money into the model. Roland or Viscount to create realism? Roland I would think has more money but the V is only piano. (fine for me) Samples if you want, can be ran from the V Piano like Rhodes or even Ivory II via midi-out so if piano was my main goal and I like the V better I would not care about the other sounds just in my opinion. I run Ivory II for a change sometimes with the V Piano via my RME Babyface For piano-model freaks, Pianoteq 4 may relegate purchasing any of the expensive modeled pianos not cost effective AND can be played with a much lighter keyboard controller, imo. The jury will be out when Pianoteq 4 is out soon. 3 is great, imo. I remember Viscount in the old days after band broke up in-between gigs not to starve, I worked in an organ store temporarily and sold the grossly, abominable, horrible, plastic Viscount and Gem organs. (along with better organs/pianos) Surely, I know, the products have improved from long ago. W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherScott Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 The guy who did the demo in the musikmesse video posted over on another forum: "Yes, the action is made by Fatar, but it's an exclusive design for this piano model. It's based on the graded-hammer WOOD key action of the TP-40, with 3 sensors per note instead of 2. ... there are 32 'preset' physical models in the Physis piano that include European, American and Asian concert models. Although not written specifically on the piano (probably due to licensing or trademarks?), the preset models reference Steinway, Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Fazioli, Yamaha, Kawai and others. There are also 32 user locations where you can modify and store your own physical model pianos - and even download all parameters through USB memory stick (or share/download them with friends on the user forum!). ... It's difficult to hear the modifications I made to the piano characteristics in the Youtube video, but much easier to hear live. The ability to change the physical characteristics of the piano to your taste is the biggest advantage of physical modeling technology. I mention in the video that there are 100 different parameters in the Physis piano - but only 15 of these parameters can be modified by the user (the other 85 are used by the engineers). I believe they're considering a software editor that will allow a professional user to modify all of the parameters. ... The piano will be on the market sometime this Fall, and early reports for pricing have it under the V-Piano from Roland. " Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 ...early reports for pricing have it under the V-Piano from Roland. " Considering every other stage piano on the market is priced under the V-Piano, that's of little help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Schmieder Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Hmm, now you have me enticed enough to hold out on getting the RD700NX... that's the kind of info I was looking for, Scott. Hopefully these will show up stateside in actual stores (I'm placing bets on Bananas at Large in San Rafael CA, who traditionally have carried keyboards and synths the other stores bypass). Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1, Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 2 new videos. The usual caveats apply. [video:youtube] This one is very noisy: [video:youtube] This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana. Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 It's become clear to me that the fatal flaw in these modeled pianos is that you can't make a mathematical model for the sound of wood, and that's why there's a sterility to their sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheelHead Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 The guy who did the demo in the musikmesse video posted over on another forum: "Yes, the action is made by Fatar, but it's an exclusive design for this piano model. It's based on the graded-hammer WOOD key action of the TP-40, with 3 sensors per note instead of 2. ... I have both of these keyboards. The PHA III in the V-Piano (hopefully I remembered that correct) and the Fatar TP-40 wood keyboard. I don't know about the 3 sensors per note but in my opinion the TP-40 feels good but the PHA III is a much nicer and faster weighted action. I have the TP-40 in a Numa Nero and I enjoy playing the V Piano MUCH better and is a bit lighter. This is subjective someone else may feel the opposite having both to play. The Numa Nero TP-40 is accurate but the V piano just feels so good to play. I don't even think Crumar put the TP-40 in their piano that can run Pianoteq and the pro version Ivory. Someone told me correctly or incorrectly they choose another Fatar keyboard that felt better. Having said that and I know it may sound contradictory, the TP-40 really mimics a grand action that has a heavier action. This could be slightly better for building chops and might even be more accurate to grand piano standards but the V Piano keyboard feels so sweet and fast parts just fly with ease on the keyboard, imho. (not to be misinterpreted as saying the V Piano is semi weighted. It isn't) W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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