Moog Minitaur

[Mark Schmieder]

VERY good point; being able to simultaneously cover a left-hand Moog bass line and a right-hand Moog lead. Thanks for the reminder. :-)

[Seannn]

Check out this great demo video from Moog!

 

[video:youtube]4CUMiBDwozQ

[Mark Schmieder]

I came close to pre-ordering through Nova Musik today, and did call them for details, but then thought more about the implications of there being no patch memory, and ultimately decided to pass both on this unit and anything from Tom Oberheim.

 

I haven't gigged on keyboards in almost two years now, and for all I know never will again. Although I said the same thing about jazz when my last outfit went their separate ways in the late 90's, only to go at it at a professional level all these years later. So, "never say never".

 

But if I were to gig on keys, I would need patch memory. And if I was working on songs in the studio and didn't finish everything in one take, I would also need total recall of all parameters with full precision.

 

The reason I say this is that I have taken note with the Minimoog Voyager that even the tiniest little bump of a dial can radically change the sound of a patch, and not in a subtle way at all. Sure, we can use our ears and get close each time, but that isn't easy in a noisy gigging environment and time is money in the studio.

[Marzzz]

I thought more about the implications of there being no patch memory, and ultimately decided to pass

At least in the studio, I think I would be more inclined to favor a synth without patch memory. I did way more programming of my MiniMoog D back in the late 70's (out of necessity, of course) then I currently do on my Voyager. As a result, I knew the Mini inside and out, and could re-create nearly any patch very quickly. I am embarrassed to admit, despite owning my Voyager for nearly a decade, there is still a lot I haven't explored. I am even thinking of trading to a Voyager OS to help get out of my rut....

[Al Coda]

At least in the studio, I think I would be more inclined to favor a synth without patch memory. I did way more programming of my MiniMoog D back in the late 70's (out of necessity, of course) then I currently do on my Voyager. As a result, I knew the Mini inside and out, and could re-create nearly any patch very quickly. I am embarrassed to admit, despite owning my Voyager for nearly a decade, there is still a lot I haven't explored. I am even thinking of trading to a Voyager OS to help get out of my rut....

 

I agree !

Hundreds of factory presets make lazy.

Stepping thru presets to find the right one for final tweaking, very often lasts longer than dialing in the right sound from scratch.

 

I don´t have to use much knobs even on my Minimoog D since I´m using CV pedals,- one of these for the filter cutoff.

Waveform and footage switching in the OSC section is very fast as is making changes to attack and decay times and the resonance.

 

Minitaur is much easier to handle !

 

A.C.

[Tobias Åslund]

I welcome the Minitaur and at the moment, before all other NAMM news, this is probably at the top of my list. It would make a great companion to my NS2, which I find to lack som bottom oompf when producing a synth bass - and sometimes I've found 2 synth sections just isn't enough.

I also believe they decided not to have presets to keep the cost down. So thank you for producing a real Moog I feel I can afford!

[GovernorSilver]

It seems like most soon-to-be Minitaur owners will be triggering it from a keyboard. A way to get around it not having its own patch memory would be to set up MIDI CC messages along with whatever patch/perf/combi you would use on your controlling keyboard. Then whenever you change your keyboard preset, MIDI CCs get sent to the Minitaur to change its settings.

 

Realistically, if I had a Minitaur, I would only be using two sounds - the sweeping drone made famous by Rush, and a particular funky Moog bass sound used by Funkadelic and Stevie Wonder (the name of the specific song escapes me at the moment) - and some realtime adjustments via the knobs/MIDI CC/CV to liven upt the sound as its being played. I don't need a bank of 128 presets for just two sounds.

[Tobias Åslund]

It's a great idea, but how many keyboards let you send a series of CC-messages enough to change all parameters on the MiniTaur? If you have a computer in your rig, ok no problem, but with a single keyboard?

 

Can the PC3 do this? My old PC88 let's you send a pre-set value for every realtime controller, so you can send quite a few CC#s, but it's not a very elegant solution. I wished many times that you could could send a series of CC's and sysex messages when recalling a setup.

 

Of course - you with a workstation you could send a string of messages when recalling and playing a song, but that might not either be the most convenient method.

[Al Coda]

It's a great idea, but how many keyboards let you send a series of CC-messages enough to change all parameters on the MiniTaur? If you have a computer in your rig, ok no problem, but with a single keyboard?

 

The 2 1/2 oct Roland/Edirol PCR300 sends 50+ controllers, comes w/ a crossfader slider blending between 2 MIDI CCs, offers Roland style left-hand controller unit as well as split/layer functionality,- so no prob layering Minitaur w/ another sound.

MIDI In merge w/ MIDI Out and USB offers functionality to connect a MIDI bass pedal in addition.

You send a complete set of MIDI CC offsets by a "snapshot".

 

 

Can the PC3 do this? My old PC88 let's you send a pre-set value for every realtime controller, so you can send quite a few CC#s, but it's not a very elegant solution. I wished many times that you could could send a series of CC's and sysex messages when recalling a setup.

 

In setup mode,-

all the PC3 onboard physical controllers are available for each zone but configurable differently for each zone,- so you have all the CC pedals, the ft.-switches, MIDI29 switch, the 8 program buttons, the wheels and the sliders and assign controller numbers according to a module´s (Minitaur´s) MIDI specs.

 

I never tried it up to now, but IIRC, you can send controller offset values on a dedicated MIDI channel from a MIDI-Out zone to a connected module.

 

A.C.

 

[Tobias Åslund]

In setup mode,-

all the PC3 onboard physical controllers are available for each zone but configurable differently for each zone,- so you have all the CC pedals, the ft.-switches, MIDI29 switch, the 8 program buttons, the wheels and the sliders and assign controller numbers according to a module´s (Minitaur´s) MIDI specs.

Yes, even the PC88 can do this, but it's not very practical. Let's say I use every controller in each zone - 4 sliders, 3 buttons, 4 continuous pedals, 2 switch pedal and mod wheel - all in all 14 controllers. Then you can send 14 CC#s per zone - if you set all 4 zones to the same midi ch you can multiply that by 4 and you'll get 56 different CC#s you can send upon recalling that setup. The "problem" is that if you touch any of the controllers it will change 4 parameters in the receiving module (the Minitaur in this case) - not very practical. I've used this method for to send a couple of CCs, but then you must remember not to touch that/those controller(s).

 

If I understand you correctly the Edirol/Roland way would be what I want in this case.

[GovernorSilver]

It's a great idea, but how many keyboards let you send a series of CC-messages enough to change all parameters on the MiniTaur? If you have a computer in your rig, ok no problem, but with a single keyboard?

 

I believe my Korg M3 can send a fair number.

 

Then again, given I'd only use the Minitaur for basically just two different sounds, I'm not likely to put in the effort to map 20 different MIDI CC numbers from M3 to Minitaur. I'd probably map about 2-4 CCs, and only if driving the Minitaur from M3's KARMA or sequencer. Realistically, I'm more likely to just twist knobs on the Minitaur.

[Mark Schmieder]

I think people misunderstand what I am saying: I am not talking about tweaking factory presets, but creating my own from scratch. The point is that I can then store them for reuse, whether due to a song being incomplete and wanting the same sound when I come back to it later, or because I want to use the same sound on another song.

 

I fully agree that one is better off starting from scratch than using the factory presets in the Voyager. But I see that as a separate issue from having the ability to store your OWN patches.

[Mark Schmieder]

GovernorSilver has a good point, though, about how the Minitaur's more simplified and specialised sound engine would probably not require such finessed knob tweaking as the Voyager does (as I said originally, just "touching" a knob without using enough force to perceptibly "move" it can still radically change a patch to where it is no longer what I am aiming for).

 

I'm going to focus on some of my custom bass presets for the Voyager this weekend and see whether they are as sensitive to precise settings as the other patches. If not, then I may find the Minitaur meets my needs.

 

I suspect the SEM would still be a problem for me though as I would be using it for other purposes where the timing of the envelope would be critical.

[Al Coda]

Yes, even the PC88 can do this, but it's not very practical.

 

You asked for the PC3, not the PC88, which eventually is different in MIDI features compared to PC3.

 

It is not practical, assigning all the physical controls of the PC3 to a ZONE in a SETUP, the ZONE directed to MIDI because you probably need the physical controls for other purposes,- and the Minitaur has it´s own physical controls anyway.

 

We´re looking for a solution, sending Minitaur complete bulk-dumps of MIDI controller data, this replacing the missing static preset memory in Minitaur,- right ?

 

You´d have to connect Minitaur to MIDI Out of the PC3 and create a separate ZONE on a separate MIDI channel in a SETUP for Minitaur and creating MIDI controller offsets for that MIDI channel, but using the entry/exit values and not the physical controls of the PC3.

So,- every time you recall a setup w/ a MIDI Out ZONE for Minitaur, you´re able to sent different entry values per setup/zone and if you leave that setup, the exit values reset these controllers.

That would be a solution using PC3 alone.

 

You´re not forced to use the Setup 126 "Internal Voices" incl. all the controller pre-definitions to create own setups.

Go to default setup instead, define your controllers, create new setups and rename and save.

 

What the MIDI controllers do to your internal programs in other zones or more MIDI zones in a setup is completely independend for every zone.

 

There´s controller remapping as well as re-channelizing available in a PC3 which becomes important when using MIDI In devices w/ the PC3.

 

Now,- all depends on the MIDI implementation coming w/ Minitaur and we don´t know it up to now.

 

If I understand you correctly the Edirol/Roland way would be what I want in this case.

 

Because of the count of physical controllers available, having a separate keyboard and a MIDI In w/ MERGE functionality for the additional MIDI (bass) pedal,- yes.

 

But there´s one imperfection,- the PC300/500/800 has onboard memory for different controller maps, but not for snapshots.

PCR models send 1 snapshot at a time.

Snapshots are normally stored on the DAW and I fear this rules for all the small USB MIDI controllers.

 

It will be some experimentation, but theoetically, it should be possible to record a snapshot from the PCR300 as a RIFF on a PC3 sequencer track and using that RIFF in a setup and in the zone being addressed to Minitaur, the RIFF fireing the MIDI controller data to Minitaur before you play it and by recalling the desired setup.

This would also be the guarantee,- none of the PC3 controllers affecting Minitaur and parameter-changes, made on PCR300 and only w/ "Minitaur controller map" active, or Minitaur´s own knobs will override the settings being sent by the RIFF.

 

I hope it will work because it´s logical to me,- MIDI wise.

 

It would be a simple rig:

MIDI (bass) Pedal MIDI Out > PCR300 MIDI In (PCR300 merge ON)

PCR300 MIDI Out > Kurz PC3 MIDI In

Kurz PC3 MIDI Out > Minitaur MIDI In

 

Usage of PC3 Local Kbd Channel "on" or "off" will have influence on the behaviour of the bass pedal/PCR300 combo, but it will be possible using the bass pedal independent from PC300 keyboard or together or bass pedal transmitting MIDI on 1 MIDI channel and the PCR300 keyboard on 2 different ones while it´s physical controls transmit on more different MIDI channels too and PC3 decides what all these controllers do to the Local and MIDI zones in a setup.

 

A.C.

[Tobias Åslund]

Wow, this seems very complicated, but it's interesting that it can be done. Fortunately for me I think I manage without patch memory for the Minitaur.

[mate stubb]

Presets are for wimps! Knob labels are for girly-men!

 

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/images/gallery/back_line.jpg

[The Real MC]

Presets? Bah!

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tdTWzqJfNW0/TXrRuglBS9I/AAAAAAACLyE/iFeRXAdfwxg/s1600/buchla%2Bbox-2.jpg

[Al Coda]

Wow, this seems very complicated, but it's interesting that it can be done. Fortunately for me I think I manage without patch memory for the Minitaur.

 

No, it isn´t very complicated, there are 2 ways doing it.

 

1.)

Using the controller entry/exit values only w/ PC3 in Setup Mode, the PC3 playing Minitaur.

 

2.)

Using a separate MIDI controller keyboard (& basspedal) together w/ the PC3, the controller keyboard being the "preset-programmer" for Minitaur.

 

I just read the PC3 musicians guide for for OS 2.03:

 

A RIFF can be part of any Zone and each Zone can have it´s own RIFF assigned.

 

A RIFF is virtually part of a song in the PC3 sequencer which offers 16 MIDI tracks and each MIDI track can be defined as a RIFF in a ZONE.

 

So,- in only one song, you record 16 different controller snapshots from a MIDI controller keyboard,- one on each track.

 

Up to that point, each track transmits on a different MIDI channel, but by selecting a RIFF in a ZONE, the SOURCE of that RIFF can be any MIDI track of a given SONG and that track can be rechannelized for THAT Zone on the RIFF 1 Page.

 

Start of the RIFF, playing back the recorded MIDI controller snapshot, can be triggered by any key assigned to "RIFF On" or by a physical controller assigned to the MIDI controller destination #163 "RIFF On" (#164 RIFF Off).

 

Working w/ one SONG only in KURZ PC3 onboard sequencer,- there are 16 different and recallable bass sounds available for Minitaur that way,- by simply copying the same setup, rename to the song´s title to be performed and assigning different tracks from that song as a RIFF to the ZONE which controls Minitaur in a SETUP.

 

Talking about Song and Riff,- there´s no music audible and no sequencer song running.

There´s just only a short 1 or 2-bar recording of MIDI controller data on each track of that SONG and the RIFF plays back silent @ PC3´s system default tempo, the performing artist triggering the RIFF at any time and the way he wants, once a SETUP, containing a ZONE and RIFF for Minitaur, is loaded.

 

For owners of a PC3, the Minitaur and a small additional MIDI controller, that´s a cool solution for gigging !

 

The advanage of 2.) is,- there´s no need to create several control setups for PC3, just only doing short recordings of controller snapshots w/ the onboard sequencer.

 

A.C.

[Tobias Åslund]

Sorry to derailing the thread by talking about how to possibly controlling the MiniTaur from a Kurzweil, but I still don't fully understand #1 and the concept of offsets in the PC3.

 

My old PC88 can, as i stated, send entry values (and also exit values) for each physical controller in a setup - and a setup has it's own controller mapping, so I could have unique assignments for everyone of the controllers. And by using all 4 zones I can send 4 unique entry values for each controller.

 

Does the "offset" in the PC3 mean I can set entry values for non existing controllers as well, or what do you mean?

[Al Coda]

Sorry to derailing the thread by talking about how to possibly controlling the MiniTaur from a Kurzweil, but I still don't fully understand #1 and the concept of offsets in the PC3.

 

My old PC88 can, as i stated, send entry values (and also exit values) for each physical controller in a setup - and a setup has it's own controller mapping, so I could have unique assignments for everyone of the controllers. And by using all 4 zones I can send 4 unique entry values for each controller.

 

Does the "offset" in the PC3 mean I can set entry values for non existing controllers as well, or what do you mean?

 

No, it is like you described above.

A "entry value" is a controller offset and it depends on the PC3 control setup configuration which MIDI controller number is assigned to it´s physical controllers,- wheels/ ft-switches/ CCpedals/ sliders/ pressure/ breath/ ARPSW/ Switch/ Ribbon (3 zones) and the SWPRG 1-8.

 

There are no non existing controller numbers,- the PC3 has full MIDI implementation, but it´s all limited to the settings of ONE active control setup at a time and there are not enough physical MIDI CC controllers available on the PC3 (15 at max., 9 sliders, 2 CCpedals, ModWheel and the 3 zones of the ribbon).

This rules fo PC3 OS 2.03.

 

Practically, you don´t need any separate MIDI controller to program Minitaur and Minitaur´s knobs transmit every movement over USB MIDI.

The drawback is, this works w/ a computer/DAW sequencer only because Minitaur has USB MIDI Out only and you record knob movements not single MIDI event values (except for the 4 buttons of Minitaur).

 

Why a separate MIDI controller,- (in my case) PCR300 ?

 

Minitaur has 21 physical elements, 17 pots and 4 switches.

The 17 pots create CC values over MIDI.

PCR has 9 sliders (S1-S9) and 8 rotary pots (R1-R8) = 17.

Perfect,- and there are enough buttons anyway.

Create a controller map for Minitaur on the PCR300 and save.

 

With the PCR connected to MIDI In of a PC3 and Minitaur connected to MIDI Out of PC3, depending on the MIDI setting of PC3, you play Minitaur from the PCR300, tweaking it´s sliders, rotarys and buttons until you hear the desired sound.

 

Now keep PCR controls as they are, go to song mode on the PC3 and record the MIDI IN of the PC3 to a track while pressing (PRM MUTE) and (-) buttons on the PCR simultaneously which sends a snapshot of its actual controller positions/values to the track.

Ideally, take care, the MIDI events of that snapshot will be recorded at the very beginnig of that track.

 

Later you use that track as a RIFF assigned to the Minitaur MIDI Zone in the PC3 setup.

Once you trigger that RIFF, Minitaur SHOULD capture the recorded MIDI events and come up w/ the desired sound.

 

That´s how it works in theory w/ MIDI, a PCR and a PC3, but it will also depend on Minitaur´s abilities to deal w/ MIDI events.

 

A.C.

 

[elsongs]

Why do companies still like to come out with tabletop gear? They're *totally* gig-unfriendly. Where do I put them on my keyboard stand?

 

The thing sounds nice, but I have no use for tabletop synths.

And even if I did, I probably wouldn't have any more space for them.

[Tobias Åslund]

I like tabletop gear - in another thread (clonk) there's pictures of my current setup. I use a "pedal board" on third tier. I actually prefer it that way over a rack cause then I have instant access to all controllers of all of these gadgets. I also use a free space on the far left side on my PC88, where I currently have a VoiceLive touch.

[Marzzz]

OK, played it today- very quick and intuitive to program, sounds awesome. I am not familiar with the Taurus I or III, so I can't speak for the purists. Doesn't need presets, doesn't need a manual, I can easily see owning one of these!

[Al Coda]

OK, played it today- very quick and intuitive to program, sounds awesome. I am not familiar with the Taurus I or III, so I can't speak for the purists. Doesn't need presets, doesn't need a manual, I can easily see owning one of these!

 

Cool !

They didn´t have a Taurus III there for a comparison of the sound ?

I don´t expect it to offer the 100% exact sound of a Taurus I.

 

A.C.

[mate stubb]

Here's a vid recorded direct showing some bass tone awesomeness.

 

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2012/01/20/wnamm12-moog-show-off-their-minitaur/

[Tobias Åslund]

GAS

[Al Coda]

GAS

 

It sounds so good,- it´s better than a Taurus I.

I´ll buy it as soon it´s available.

 

A.C.

 

[eric]

This thing is really freaking cool. I visited Moog several times with different people and we all drooled over the small form factor, solid build quality and the sounds! Whoa. The only thing I wish for is higher available octaves to use as a lead synth and not so much of just doing bass. But I might get one even if I just use it for my band's cover of Devo's "Whip It."

 

Thread is useless without pics

http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l538/e888000008/NAMM%202012/50dc158d.jpg

[GovernorSilver]

Here's a vid recorded direct showing some bass tone awesomeness.

 

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2012/01/20/wnamm12-moog-show-off-their-minitaur/

 

This is great! Thanks!

 

I like the demo of filter resonance too, for getting much higher pitches than would normally be available. Probably won't be useful for Hammer/Emerson soloing but I could make use of bleeps like that.

[Mark Schmieder]

I'm not so sure now about the earlier assertion that all Moog synths include "The Ladder", based on this NAMM report from Audio MIDI:

 

"The Ladder is a new 500-series "lunchbox size" Moog filter based upon Bob Moog's original 24 db/oct transistor ladder filter design and puts it into the studio-friendly 500-series format for filter fun on your tracks. The Ladder utilizes an envelope follower versus an envelope generator you would find on say, a Minimooog. Tweaking the attack and release of the envelope follow function with some resonance dialed up lead to some crazy cool snare sound processing at the Moog booth."