Jazz+ Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I'm wondering if the jazz pianist who are great at playing fast lines with right handed octaves (like Tatum, Peterson, Hiromi, stride players, etc), if they us 1 and 4 fingering on the black keys and 1 and 5 fingering on the white keys like classical pianists do? Hanon shows the fingerings this way. Or do they use mostly 1 and 5 universally for both black and white. It seems using 1 and 4 on black key octaves requires less hand motion and is easier to locate without looking at the keys. The advantage to doing it all with 1 and 5 is that there is no changing and it's easier to insert a harmonic note or two inside the octaves Of course I think a loose wrist is essential to avoid injury and for speed, yes? Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I use 1-4 sometimes, especially if I'm coming off of 1-5 on black notes to 1-4 on white notes underneath. A loose wrist DOES help for octaves, and that's definitely the classical technique and the spirit of Hanon #51. I do find that fast R.H. octaves aren't a terribly useful texture for me in playing jazz however, at least in any great length. A texture I use much more often is the R.H. line doubled in the L.H. two or three octaves apart. This way you have the dexterity of using all 5 fingers on each hand to play a weaving line. Oscar was a master of this. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 It totally depends on the size of one's hands. Small hands will likely use the pinkie for everything; Oscar could probably take octaves with his thumb and index finger if he wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Marino, What do you use? Let's say if the hands are medium size and can handle it both ways. ThanksJ+ Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 For example, ascending a C minor blues scales in octaves ( C Eb F F# G Bb C continue... ) it seems the 4th finger on the black keys and the 5th finger on the white keys makes it easier to play fast as long as your hand is not small. It requires quite a bit less hand motion. Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Exactly. I have medium-sized hands, and I almost always use the 4th finger on black keys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillplaying Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I do play some Stride but I use transcriptions. My tuppence worth below relates to soloing in a trio (or bigger) setting. Are you talking about playing a whole line in octaves? I had to think about this and then play a bit to see what I currently do. I think I just use octaves for puncuation - not always at the start and end of a line - but definitely for emphasis. Same as Bobby above - 1-5 to 1-4 if it's scalar (classical start and Hanon exercises programmed me too) - but 1-5 if it's jumping around. I'm the piano player "off of" Borrowed Books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longfuse Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I'm wondering if the jazz pianist who are great at playing fast lines with right handed octaves (like Tatum, Peterson, Hiromi, stride players, etc), if they us 1 and 4 fingering on the black keys and 1 and 5 fingering on the white keys like classical pianists do? I don't know if the set of vids is still there, but search on youtoob for a TV special that Peterson did with Andre Previn. During the show, Peterson demonstrated his legato octave technique. IIR, it was pretty much what you've outlined; alternating between 4th and 5th along with the thumb. I don't recall any particular assignment to black or white keys, just that he alternated up and down scales. Anyway, if the vids are still there you'll be able to see for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I do the 4th finger thing too. One tip a classical pianist gave me for improving octave speed is to play melodies and lines that you would play in octaves with only the thumb. It forces you to improve your accuracy and to focus on the technique involved in dropping the hand and lifting it more than you might when playing octaves. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 Great tips! "stillgigging" raised an interesting point when he mentioned "but 1-5 if it's jumping around." I think that's quite correct, 1-5 for jumps. Do you agree 1-5 is best for larger leaps like with Eb triad arpeggios?And that 1-4 on black and 1-5 on white is best suited for scale or stepwise type motion? Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffLearman Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Wow, this never occurred to me, but trying it just now it feels natural, especially on a descending line or legato. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non ce futuro Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I got kinda big hands, so I sometimes use the 3rd finger as well, but it depends on how's the line I'm playing. Sometimes if I really need to play legato octaves I switch between the 3rd, 4th and 5th finger, in no particular order. When playing for instance a descending octave scale I sometimes use the third in some passing notes (never on the first or last one, looks awful!) I don't think I ever follow strictly the Hanon rule of 5th for white and 4th for black keys though. probably I just haven't practices enough But that's not something I use often when playing jazz, maybe when playing latin-oriented stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non ce futuro Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Also I noticed that have a loose wrist helps, but the most important thing is the movement of the forearm, that's what gives you speed. When playing black key's octaves the forearm (the whole arm, in fact) should move slightly towards the piano, and when playing white key's octaves the forearm should move a bit backwards (closer to you, let's say). So in black the forearm should be a bit higher and closer to the piano, and in white's the forearm should be on its normal position. Most of the super-speed classical pianists do this. This swing gives the real speed, and also makes it much more confortable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Wow, this never occurred to me, but trying it just now it feels natural, especially on a descending line or legato. In certain classical passages, it's the only way to fly for a legato line. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 Thanks non c'e futuro, good tips on the forearm. What's the consensus for using 1-5 for larger jumps regardless of key color? Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non ce futuro Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 If I want to play a bit legato triad arpeggios (like an Eb triad on octaves) I also switch between the 4th and 5th (4th-5th-4th); but if it's a longer jump I play it 1-5 (no way of playing legato octaves with a jump longer than a third, I guess) cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 Thanks again non c'e futuro Let me narrow the question further:If legato is not required, but rather accuracy and speed is the goal, would you use 1-4 or 1-5 for executing such an Eb arpeggio. And let's say it is a continuous Eb arpeggio, one that travels up continuously across several octaves of range. (ascending: Eb G Bb, Eb G Bb, etc. on up) Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marino Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Also I noticed that have a loose wrist helps, but the most important thing is the movement of the forearm, that's what gives you speed. When playing black key's octaves the forearm (the whole arm, in fact) should move slightly towards the piano, and when playing white key's octaves the forearm should move a bit backwards (closer to you, let's say). So in black the forearm should be a bit higher and closer to the piano, and in white's the forearm should be on its normal position. Correct - but if you think about it, it's valid for all playing, not just octaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non ce futuro Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 If legato is not required, then I would play all octave's jumps with 1-5, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non ce futuro Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Absolutely true Carlo, forearm swing is a must for everything! Specially when playing alternating thirds and that kind of stuff (I'm thinking on Chopin's study on thirds or Barcarolle, tough to learn and practice!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 15, 2011 Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 non c'e futuro How would you handle the minor 3rd jumps in the ascending blues scale played very fast in octaves by the right hand ? : C Eb F F# G Bb Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 15, 2011 Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 What's Hiromi using for the very fast octaves, 1-4 or 1-5 on black keys? Starting at 4:25 time (in G- blues territory):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ao3gRYpV6A At 1:30 (D minor blues territory, not many black keys):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzLmHOnIPfk Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non ce futuro Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Mmm, I had to tried it at the keyboard!! I play that octaves: 5th-3rd-5th-3rd-5th-4th if I want to make a really smooth legato, and also good if I have to end the run with the upper C (will play upper C with the 5th-looks nice) or just alternating the 4th and 5th if I wanna play it the fast as I can (but loosing pretty much of the good legato accuracy) I guess I just use the third as substitute of 4th on some black keys because that way it's more confortable for my hand, and also because this way my arm swings back and forth in an easier way, too. To do the second octave (a minor third jump) with the third finger forces you to move your wrist and forearm up and towards the piano, so it's a good exercise, I guess, and makes a better legato. The 4th finger has less independency and flexibility, so it's aesier for me "to legato" the octaves moving up from 3rd to 5th (like from Eb to F or F# to G). But I just noticed now, while practicing this figure, that playing legato the descending same blues scale (Bb-G-F#-F-Eb-C) I do this: 4th-5th-4th-5th-4th-3rd (it's easier to play legato the minor third in this case -Eb-C- moving 4th to 3rd, then breaking the rule of 5th always on white keys. So I guess fingering depends on the notes you're gonna play, as always does this makes sense? Maybe I just have a weird shape of hands!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_tour Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Never heard of the 1-4 thing. The one tune with RH octaves that kicked my ass was when I was accompanying a guy playing Schubert's Winterreise song cycle. He wanted to do "The Erl-King" as an encore. Holy shit some people play those repeated RH octaves FAST. I'm getting carpal tunnel just thinking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonksDream Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I hear ya, J_tour! I feel that way watching good players do Rhapsody In Blue. Instrumentation is meaningless - a song either stands on its own merit, or it requires bells and whistles to cover its lack of adequacy, much less quality. - kanker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_tour Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I hear ya, J_tour! I feel that way watching good players do Rhapsody In Blue. Just saw Herbie play it a week ago. That guy might go somewhere if sticks with his lessons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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