Last Night -- Keith Jarrett, Peacock, Dejohnette

[SK]

On the Reharm Room:

It's hard enough to play something close to the composer's intent. Trying to improve on it is beyond me

I never looked at the reharms we did as improving on the originals... it was just to share different perspectives on how tunes might be played. I meant to name it "The Substitution Room" - I didn't know it would go into total reharms.

 

But I agree any chance for confusion over whether reharms were trying to be better than the originals was the main reason I stopped posting them. It almost became like an excuse to avoid original composing.

 

On Jarrett:

Clearly he has even moved beyond Bill Evans who so known for his technique.

Now that's an interesting comment. My opinion (that's all it is) is that no one can be Bill Evans or Keith Jarrett. Both put their personal stamp on music and were innovators. Both are perfectionists.

 

With that said, Jarrett ventures into harmonic terrain where Bill Evans never went. Jarrett is also more of the gladiator type virtuoso, which Bill wasn't known for. Bill's virtuosity was having full command of the instrument in the style he played.

 

The important similarities between Evans and Jarrett: they both feel every note of the music with ample ability to impart it to the listener, and both show absolute reverence for the purist quality of music.

 

As an explanation (not a defense) to Jarrett detractors: the quirks in his attitude or personality, his vocal sounds, etc., are peripherals to his ability as a pianist. He doesn't care what people think about anything except the music. Is that a little dysfunctional? Perhaps, but it allows him to focus on what he considers important. It's what makes him tick.

 

With all those accolades I just laid on Jarrett and Evans, I should say that I don't believe in idol worship. Nobody hears music the same way, everyone has their voice and 'story to tell', and no one can duplicate it. (boring post modified for clarity.)

 

 

 

[Jazzwee]

SK - on Jarret vs. Evans - I was talking about "technique". I couldn't possibly cut down Evans who's inarguably the biggest influence on anything I do in jazz piano. And certainly to many others. And of course Evans himself took some of it from Tristano.

 

On Reharms -- SK - you could have fooled me. As far as I was concerned, you all understood the tunes well enough to reharm it. I was only talking about my own inability to significantly change progressions, as aggressively as you guys can do. In fact, I wish I understood the thought process better. All I can say is kudos to you guys. Obviously only a few people here have the skill to even reharm so the rest of us can only watch.

 

 

[Eric Iverson]

This thread has inspired me to give KJ's trio work a fresh listen.

 

Some of his solo work used to irk me, since it seemed like he was continually showing off - including his tone - and would never just play a tune. In contrast to Miles and Coltrane, who would and could do fancy stuff, but sometimes would just play a melody expressively, so that you would say "Man, that's a beautiful tune."

 

I was never a KJ fan, though of course I always respected him. Maybe I've been missing something all these years.... no, I will NEVER enjoy hearing him moan out of tune while playing....

 

[Jazz+]

I am pleased that Jarrett continuing to keep the music of so called 'Great American Songbook' in the present (Rogers & Hart, Cole Porter, Gershwin, Mercer, etc.) I wish Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea also released trio albums of standards once a year. I think it's a loss that they don't, IMO.

[Jazzwee]

The problem is that the record companies don't want to invest in Standards (heard this from someone). Doesn't sell they say. So it's always got to be something new. So if you want to do this, you'll have to self-publish.

 

What they don't realize is that everytime these guys play a tune, it is ALWAYS NEW.

 

 

 

[Dana.]

I wish Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea also released trio albums of standards once a year. I think it's a loss that they don't, IMO.

They're playing two nights here soon as a duo. I'll let you know if they do any standards.

[Jazzwee]

I wish Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea also released trio albums of standards once a year. I think it's a loss that they don't, IMO.

They're playing two nights here soon as a duo. I'll let you know if they do any standards.

 

Nice location for jazz D-Bon. You're where the action is.

[Dana.]

Nice location for jazz D-Bon. You're where the action is.

[Jazzwee]

But at least Herbie's here ...he just visits you.

[marino]

I don't have much to add to this thread, except that I enjoyed reading your comments, and that I'm VERY pleased to see *both* Dave Ferris and SK posting again.

 

I never looked at the reharms we did as improving on the originals... it was just to share different perspectives on how tunes might be played. I meant to name it "The Substitution Room" - I didn't know it would go into total reharms.

Mmmm....

 

 

[Jazzwee]

I don't have much to add to this thread, except that I enjoyed reading your comments, and that I'm VERY pleased to see *both* Dave Ferris and SK posting again.

 

Hey Carlo, apparently you didn't miss me since I haven't posted in awhile

 

But Dave was over in Pianoworld in my other neck of the woods so I guess he never disappeared.

 

I hope no one is too disgusted that I always post with a jazz bias.

[SK]

I don't have much to add to this thread, except that I enjoyed reading your comments, and that I'm VERY pleased to see *both* Dave Ferris and SK posting again.

 

I never looked at the reharms we did as improving on the originals... it was just to share different perspectives on how tunes might be played. I meant to name it "The Substitution Room" - I didn't know it would go into total reharms.

Mmmm....

 

Uh... it's 'all good'. I had no idea if anyone would even post in that thread, much less take the tunes to the far extremes all of us went. It turned into one of the best threads on here with some great stuff, and it was fun.

[marino]

Hey Carlo, apparently you didn't miss me since I haven't posted in awhile

Hey Jazzwee, I do miss the jazz-related threads, and your contributions as well of course. Maybe I'd better explain; a while ago I have had a brief exchange of messages (emails and PMs) with both Dave and Steve, which gave me the impression that they were going to stay away from the forum at least for a while. So I'm very pleased to see them both posting again.

 

The Reharm Room has found me in a period of reflection about the way I wanted to play standards, and it has given me a truckload of ideas. It was just the right moment!

 

And just to be picky, Steve, I don't always *totally* rebuild the whole harmonic fundation of the songs I reharmonize... I do that on just, um, about 80% of them.

 

 

[Jazzwee]

Hey, Carlo, missed the chatting about jazz too. Sorry for disappearing. But I really focused on woodshedding, particularly on on acoustic so I didn't even think of anything related to DP's. Hopefully, I learned a few things in the meantime...

 

Though I did lurk in the reharm thread

 

 

[SK]

And just to be picky, Steve, I don't always *totally* rebuild the whole harmonic fundation of the songs I reharmonize... I do that on just, um, about 80% of them.

I counted 79%, but I'll take your word for it.

 

Considering the enthusiasm and craziness at the time, it's only natural that we took the songs further and further out. It was amazing fun. Some of the stuff was mindblowing.And I think by listening to each other's music, we all learned something about our own playing.

 

To clear any confusion, if needed: I didn't refer to your playing in the reharm thread. I was thinking of my own, and how I eventually found myself challenging myself in ways that were counter to my musical intuition. You know, we're all compelled to play whatever we play some standards can be reharmed and improved, but I found that wasn't always the case with me. Just for me, invention started to take precedence over musicality, and that's when I stopped. And that's my playing, no one else's. But it was certainly a unique ear opening experience of the myriad of possibilities, and I might post in that thread again.

 

a while ago I have had a brief exchange of messages (emails and PMs) with both Dave and Steve, which gave me the impression that they were going to stay away from the forum at least for a while.

I won't speak for Dave, although I think he's already spoken for himself, but the main reason I've been scarce on the forum recently is due to difficult, private circumstances, as some of you know. I'm not back regularly yet, but I hope to be.

[LX88]

I have been a fan of Keith Jarrett in the past. When I was younger I listened the solo concert recordings and his work with Charles Lloyd and Miles Davis and also his playing with Jan Garbarek. So I am not some idle observer.

 

I apologize to those who love Keith's standards trio here, but I am going to bitch a little. Since Keith has written to the New York Times in the past to complain about other musicians such as Wynton Marsalis, here is my take on Keith....

 

First there is all that moaning and gyrating. This comes from a person who has lectured his audience for coughing? I have never seen such a double standard. The audience (who pay a good dollar to hear Keith live these days ) can't make noises that distract from "the music" but Keith can of course do whatever he wants.

 

I find this extremely self indulgent .

 

I am also not wild about the standards repertoire ... I have always liked to hear jazz that includes some original compositions. I think it is important in that it keeps the music from becoming overly dated , and is not endlessly recycling forms that in many cases have been over played (Green Dolphin Street, Stella by Starlight etc. etc.).

 

Also...it is a bit peculiar to me that Keith has basically played with the same musicians over and over in his life. What bugs me about it is that you will NEVER see someone get the opportunity to benefit from what must be one of the higher paying jazz gigs in the world. It's been Jack DeJohnette on drums for 45 years on and off with only Paul Motian as the exception. And only Charlie Haden or Gary Peacock on bass.

 

Loyalty is one thing, but in world where good opportunites are scarce for musicians, there will be none from Keith. I strongly disagree with it.

 

It has been interesting to see Keith do a few interviews on You tube etc. but he is so insulated from the world most of us must live in that I can no longer support his position as "royalty" in the music world. These days I would much rather spend my money on someone who deserves the recognition ( maybe even someone on this list).

 

I doubt very much that Keith Jarrett has any interest in knowing anything about you, whoever you are. And that is not a democratic process.

 

I stopped paying outrageous ticket prices a long time ago so that certain artists can live elegant lives. I don't worship musical gods anymore and am no longer in awe of someone who has superior technique or tone etc. if the actual musical content suffers in a SIGNIFICANT way.

 

Beyond Bill Evans technically ? Not as far as I am concerned. The 1961 Village Vanguard recordings fascinate me to this day. And the LAST WALTZ has such a incredible story behind it.... Bill taking every advantage of the last moments of his life. Almost nothing in the history of music can touch Bill Evans or Scott La Faro's last recorded performances for sheer dramatic interest - not to mention that the music itself is at such a high level.

 

I don't care how round the tone is if it is accompanied by someone moaning as if they are being relieved of CONSTIPATION or other toilet flushing sounds. It's self esteem gone rampant.

 

From now on I will put my money into the cup of a far less accomplished street player who needs to eat.

 

(I realize that this might come off as being a drastic post, but please just consider what I am saying....)

 

 

[Jazzwee]

LX88, I know about the moaning and groaning and audience harassment (which he did not do all in this case). But in the circle of top jazzers in the country with some of whom I have contact, THEY recognize that KJ has attained a level that is beyond anyone else.

 

You may color your reactions with your dislike of the man as a person but from a pure artistic point of view, at least, I am not alone in recognizing his incredible achievement here.

 

From the point of view as a musician honing his craft, I will take any information about developing my skill from anyone. I don't have to like them.

 

Mind you, I'm not in the KJ fan club. He's not my primary influence but I have a lot of respect for his musical accomplishments and he is unique.

 

We would have had a more interesting conversation if you disagreed with something about his skill but you color your opinion with so much of him you don't like as a person that it's like talking apples and oranges. In any case, he was gracious to his audience in LA and the double encore shows he appreciated it.

 

If you pointed out a specific instance where you think he played badly that would be more interesting than a general attack. Though in my exposure to him, he's so consistent (more so than anyone else) that I'd probably be hard pressed to find cases.

 

Bill Evans, as incredible as he was, had inconsistencies. He worked out some ideas in advance and used them repeatedly to maintain a level of consistency but his drug use affected him in some ways, like his time. (if you don't believe me, I talked to his drummer).

 

Bill Evans contributed more to jazz piano than KJ. Obviously. Bill started many things that influenced all jazz pianists to follow. So I only narrow KJ's advantage in the technical level, consistency, and some supernatural ability to shape his melodies.

[LX88]

I would have to disagree that Jarrett has attained a level that is beyond anyone else. Does this refer to what is going on today, or does this refer to all pianists that ever played?

 

 

[Dana.]

Complaining about Jarrett =

 

 

[Jazzwee]

Well fortunately, LX88, people have different tastes and you are entitled to your view as well.

 

At least you confined your comment to the music.

 

 

[Jazzwee]

BTW - I've been absent for awhile and just noticed my post count passed 3K...Yet most people probably forgot who I am. :idk

[Musicale]

I can't think of the KJ trio without remembering taking a date to see them at the Eastman Theater '87 or '88. Great concert, awful date. I loved them, she didn't. Left the concert to find my car, and all the others parked illegally in the alley behind ET, had been towed.

 

Never saw the girl again.

 

The best review yet....

 

Regards,

Musicale

[Dana.]

This piece casts Jarrett in an atypical light:

 

Rio

[Joe Muscara]

Wow. If he's really found a bit of peace, I think that would be good for everyone.

[I-missRichardTee]

As a "fly on the wall" observer, may I ask?

is there a rough consensus on the top piano players , living or dead, among this forums jazz appreciating members? ( Goodness, say that sentence backwards three times )

 

Where are the following in the hierarchy of jazz piano?

 

Bill Evans, Monk, Tatum, Oscar, Brad, Hancock, McCoy, Rubalcaba, Shearing, Keith, Chick, W Kelly, B Powell, E Garner, Duke, Hines, Gene Harris, Joe Sample, Hersh, Mulgrew, Sonny Clark, Flannigan, H Jones, K Kirkland, Waller, Jamal, Willie the Lion, Cedar, Longo, Tristano, Hawes

 

I am sure others I have forgotten can be added.

 

If you believe in the notion of mixing hierarchy with art, you might have the:

1. very best category, 2 innovators, 3. virtuoso with great musiciality,

4. excellent

that's just off the top, be my guest and create other categories, unless you are repelled by that... problem with that is generally agreed upon much lesser [pianist like _______ will be seen as equal to or better than Oscar or Herbie, that is stretching it , for me. So SOME kind of hierarchy seems necessary!!

 

Edit This is really difficult, isn't it?

Maybe isolate an aspect- technique? To my mind these names come up ( and technique is absolutely NOT disassociated from great musicality in this rendering - please! )

Most Technique Tatum ( likely winner ) , Oscar, Ahmad Jamal, Keith, Chick, Fats, (Evans?)

Many of the greats on my make shift list of great pianists, do not enter this category of musical, and most technical.

So that is one approach.

 

then there is innovator/ composer or not, category- for that Horace, Tyner, Tatum, Monk, Evans , Oscar, Garner, Jamal, Brad, Keith, Chick, Hancock, Duke, add your own nominees

 

Groovingest pianists opens up "soul players" and even Eddie Palmieri for me

But Oscar is there.

 

Special Herbie section ( one of my heroes ) Herbie is strongly in the groove category, for me, Herbie has the uncanny ability to "fit in", to make grooves that seem dubious, into something memorable- I cite the "Native Dancer" CD of Wayne S. That rhythm section sounds a tad unfamiliar with one another- a studio bass player who sounds like he is doing his reading thing, a S American drummer, and Herbie. There are times they avert "train wrecks" yet come out very much intact. There is another track with Herbie, I think "Cornbread" where rhythm section does not sound tight yet Herbie elevates it with his magic.

 

SOLO piano!!

 

So this is just a start of an idea, that may or may not be acceptable,

If this idea is acceptable among the small group of Music Player members, maybe another thread could erected for this discussion?

[Jazzwee]

You should start this on a new thread. It will get lost in here...Good topic though.