aaaaargh,,,

[pinkjimiphoton]

yah,.....germanium.

 

how many of you have been sucked into it's cold little heart?

 

let me tell ya what...ge diodes sound GREAT.

 

germanium transistors sound fugging AWESOME. when they work. which is rare, and only in certain temperature ranges.

 

i am seriously considering murdering my fuzzface with malice in my heart!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh..

 

don't believe the hype!! it's not worth it!!!!!!!!

[picker]

You know, PJ, when you said that in an earlier post, I was all but flabbergasted by it. I had read several articles that were adamant about the superiority of Gemanium over silicon. But I seem to remember a Lafayette Build-it-yo'sef kit I assembled way back in my junior H.S. year that never worked well for long. Maybe it was more due to Germanium 'sistors than to my lack of soldering finesse. All these years, I've thought it was my fault. WELLX

[desertbluesman]

That is why I use only tube distortion stomps, they sound closer to a cranked tube amp.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Hey, pjp, what if the germanium transistors were mounted on a relatively massive heat-sink, not so much as to cool them, but to keep a more constant, consistent temperature during operation? What if some form of temperature-control were also added? Has anyone tried anything like this? Perhaps we should be the first?

 

What about the bias control circuits that some germanium transistor fuzz makers use? Such as:

 

You can take a peek into one of our NKT-loaded pedals... It also includes an additional BIAS trim pot inside to set the exact bias on these transistors, for the ultimate sound. The Blue trim pot is for Bias, which should not need adjustment often... The BIAS pot really helps if you play at different temperatures. You can turn it down a bit at higher temperatures, and up a bit at lower temperatures, to keep the transistors happy and sounding best at their SWEET SPOT which is about 5 volts. The Sunface manual has more information on adjusting this. The bias control is more often found on the outside of our Sunface pedals as the SUN DIAL knob.

We now put the SUN DIAL on the Sunface ... It is the exact same function and circuit as the internal BIAS trim pot on the 2 knob model. It is used for keeping the fuzz happy at different temperatures, and with different or worn batteries. We call it the SUN DIAL... We factory set the SUNDIAL so the face is vertical at our shop temperature (70 degrees or so depending on if it's Winter or Summer!). You can set it by ear, just turn it up until the buzziness goes away as much as you like. Jim Weider has an NKT Sunface with the SUN DIAL and likes to run the sundial higher than our normal setting, he turns it almost all the way up for less fuzz and a purer tone. You can turn it down all the way for a buzzy sound like "spirit in the sky", where the fuzz fizzes out.

_________________________________________________________________

That is why I use only tube distortion stomps, they sound closer to a cranked tube amp.

 

I'm with you on tube-equipped pedals, I LOVE my Tonebone Plexitube; but the above is an apples and oranges comparison- tube circuits will not do what germanium transistor (and germanium diode) fuzzes will do, and vice-verse.

 

Using them TOGETHER- going from the guitar to a good fuzz, and from there hitting a tube-amp, tube preamp, or a good distortion pedal (with or without a tube in its circuitry)- is FANTASTIC.

 

A good fuzz isn't about trying to sound like a cranked tube-amp, it about, well, sounding like a fuzz: either going into a clean amp and sounding like edgy and dated fuzz; or, going into an overdriven or distorted tube-amp for more complex, rich tones that respond to ones "touch" and the controls on the guitar.

 

A little (or a lot of) ring-modulation around the edges, particularly when bending or playing double-stops of various intervals, is one quality that fuzz users delight in, whereas if I want a good, powerful yet clear overdrive or distortion sound for chords, I'll use a good tube-amp or similar pedal WITHOUT the fuzz.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Hey, pjp, what if the germanium transistors were mounted on a relatively massive heat-sink, not so much as to cool them, but to keep a more constant, consistent temperature during operation? What if some form of temperature-control were also added? Has anyone tried anything like this? Perhaps we should be the first?

 

What about the bias control circuits that some germanium transistor fuzz makers use? Such as:

 

You can take a peek into one of our NKT-loaded pedals... It also includes an additional BIAS trim pot inside to set the exact bias on these transistors, for the ultimate sound. The Blue trim pot is for Bias, which should not need adjustment often... The BIAS pot really helps if you play at different temperatures. You can turn it down a bit at higher temperatures, and up a bit at lower temperatures, to keep the transistors happy and sounding best at their SWEET SPOT which is about 5 volts. The Sunface manual has more information on adjusting this. The bias control is more often found on the outside of our Sunface pedals as the SUN DIAL knob.

We now put the SUN DIAL on the Sunface ... It is the exact same function and circuit as the internal BIAS trim pot on the 2 knob model. It is used for keeping the fuzz happy at different temperatures, and with different or worn batteries. We call it the SUN DIAL... We factory set the SUNDIAL so the face is vertical at our shop temperature (70 degrees or so depending on if it's Winter or Summer!). You can set it by ear, just turn it up until the buzziness goes away as much as you like. Jim Weider has an NKT Sunface with the SUN DIAL and likes to run the sundial higher than our normal setting, he turns it almost all the way up for less fuzz and a purer tone. You can turn it down all the way for a buzzy sound like "spirit in the sky", where the fuzz fizzes out.

_________________________________________________________________

That is why I use only tube distortion stomps, they sound closer to a cranked tube amp.

 

I'm with you on tube-equipped pedals, I LOVE my Tonebone Plexitube; but the above is an apples and oranges comparison- tube circuits will not do what germanium transistor (and germanium diode) fuzzes will do, and vice-verse.

 

Using them TOGETHER- going from the guitar to a good fuzz, and from there hitting a tube-amp, tube preamp, or a good distortion pedal (with or without a tube in its circuitry)- is FANTASTIC.

 

A good fuzz isn't about trying to sound like a cranked tube-amp, it about, well, sounding like a fuzz: either going into a clean amp and sounding like edgy and dated fuzz; or, going into an overdriven or distorted tube-amp for more complex, rich tones that respond to ones "touch" and the controls on the guitar.

 

A little (or a lot of) ring-modulation around the edges, particularly when bending or playing double-stops of various intervals, is one quality that fuzz users delight in, whereas if I want a good, powerful yet clear overdrive or distortion sound for chords, I'll use a good tube-amp or similar pedal WITHOUT the fuzz.

 

 

A crystal oven is a temperature-controlled chamber used to maintain the quartz crystal in electronic crystal oscillators at a constant temperature, in order to prevent changes in the frequency due to variations in ambient temperature. An oscillator of this type is known as an Oven-Controlled Crystal Oscillator (OCXO, where "XO" is an old acronym for "crystal oscillator".) This type of oscillator achieves the highest frequency stability possible with a crystal. They are typically used to control the frequency of radio transmitters, cellular base stations, military communications equipment, and for precision frequency measurement.

[pinkjimiphoton]

That is why I use only tube distortion stomps, they sound closer to a cranked tube amp.

 

well..no, they sound like a cranked tube preamp, nothing at all like a cranked tube AMP..preamp distortion is preamp distortion...the only real diff with tubes is a little more glassy hi end harmonics. i've used tube preamps from mesa, hughes and ketner, marshall, bk butler...none of 'em sound like a tube amp.

i build these things...tube amps as well as fuzzboxes. run a tube amp into a good reactive load, and a tube preamp into the same, and it's nite and day tonally.

 

[pinkjimiphoton]

Hey, pjp, what if the germanium transistors were mounted on a relatively massive heat-sink, not so much as to cool them, but to keep a more constant, consistent temperature during operation? What if some form of temperature-control were also added? Has anyone tried anything like this? Perhaps we should be the first?

 

What about the bias control circuits that some germanium transistor fuzz makers use? Such as:

 

You can take a peek into one of our NKT-loaded pedals... It also includes an additional BIAS trim pot inside to set the exact bias on these transistors, for the ultimate sound. The Blue trim pot is for Bias, which should not need adjustment often... The BIAS pot really helps if you play at different temperatures. You can turn it down a bit at higher temperatures, and up a bit at lower temperatures, to keep the transistors happy and sounding best at their SWEET SPOT which is about 5 volts. The Sunface manual has more information on adjusting this. The bias control is more often found on the outside of our Sunface pedals as the SUN DIAL knob.

We now put the SUN DIAL on the Sunface ... It is the exact same function and circuit as the internal BIAS trim pot on the 2 knob model. It is used for keeping the fuzz happy at different temperatures, and with different or worn batteries. We call it the SUN DIAL... We factory set the SUNDIAL so the face is vertical at our shop temperature (70 degrees or so depending on if it's Winter or Summer!). You can set it by ear, just turn it up until the buzziness goes away as much as you like. Jim Weider has an NKT Sunface with the SUN DIAL and likes to run the sundial higher than our normal setting, he turns it almost all the way up for less fuzz and a purer tone. You can turn it down all the way for a buzzy sound like "spirit in the sky", where the fuzz fizzes out.

_________________________________________________________________

That is why I use only tube distortion stomps, they sound closer to a cranked tube amp.

 

I'm with you on tube-equipped pedals, I LOVE my Tonebone Plexitube; but the above is an apples and oranges comparison- tube circuits will not do what germanium transistor (and germanium diode) fuzzes will do, and vice-verse.

 

Using them TOGETHER- going from the guitar to a good fuzz, and from there hitting a tube-amp, tube preamp, or a good distortion pedal (with or without a tube in its circuitry)- is FANTASTIC.

 

A good fuzz isn't about trying to sound like a cranked tube-amp, it about, well, sounding like a fuzz: either going into a clean amp and sounding like edgy and dated fuzz; or, going into an overdriven or distorted tube-amp for more complex, rich tones that respond to ones "touch" and the controls on the guitar.

 

A little (or a lot of) ring-modulation around the edges, particularly when bending or playing double-stops of various intervals, is one quality that fuzz users delight in, whereas if I want a good, powerful yet clear overdrive or distortion sound for chords, I'll use a good tube-amp or similar pedal WITHOUT the fuzz.

 

it's bullshit and hype. you can change the bias all day long, and 5 minutes later it'll be f**ked up again. you can use reverse-biased germanium diodes so the leakage from the transistor keeps it self biased (think almost like a cathode biased tube amp), and it will STILL mess up. heat sinks won't matter, as the transistors don't get hot enough to matter, and keeping them cold isn't gonna help either.

with all due respect to analogman, he's full of poo. it's a marketing gimmick.

well- matched, low- leakage ge transitors can sound good ...great, in fact. but you need to buy them in sufficient quantity to match them for leakage and hfe (gain).

a well-tuned fuzz face uses your guitar as part of the circuit. it can take you from crystaline and somewhat compressed to varying stages of overdrive to full on fuzz with just the guitar knobs. people think "fuzz" and they think horrrible fuzzy fizzy noise...but that's misbiased transistors. a good fuzz face will sound like a great tube amp, and react much like it as well. there's a reason hendrix used them with his plexi's with the 6550's biased cold as he preferred...more volume. his TONE came more from the fuzz than the amp. yah, some can say i'm full of poo, but it's the truth. very little recorded hendrix is clean guitar without a fuzzface on it. it's cleaner WITH the fuzz ON and the guitar way down than without it. sounds crazy, but it's the truth.

the dial on analogman's pedal is a great idea...but it can only go so far, and remember, is voiced at his shop at about 70 degrees. in a colder environment (like here) it won't work as well. yes, i can add a knob to adjust the bias, but at certain temps, it will still not work right.

so...i bit the bullet last nite, and found a hybrid combo of a silicon 2n3906 with a low gain, and a ge mps16b with a higher gain (this batch of red army era nos ge's has been amazingly stable temperature wise) and got the face working well enough that most folks couldn't tell....i can, cuz i'm used to it working with the stock ge. but it's more important to get the gain right than the makeup of the transistor...silicon is more than close enough for most people.

i see "germanium powered" crap from chandler limited etc in sweetwater, priced so high they can't print the price...and wonder how many people are dumb enough to fall for it. if i switched out the ge for silicon with a blind test about 99% of people would think the silicon sounded better and was more dynamic. messed up!! but true.

so...in summer, i go ge. in winter, silicon/ge.

 

btw...ge diodes are much less prone to temperature instability than ge transistors.

[Caevan O’Shite]

FWIW, I was meaning that a "heat sink" like mass could be used as part of a design to keep a more steady, stable temperature with less fluctuation, not as a heat sink to wick away heat for cooling.

[Winston Psmith]

The Sept. GP issue ("FUZZ") went into this problem in a couple of places, including the Fuzz Face article, and a sidebar titled Germanium 101. For me, much as I love a good Fuzz tone, I don't have any Germanium-based Fuzzes - I can't use something that works some of the time, even if it sounds great when it does work.

 

Jimi, what's the possibility of using something like that tall M&M's can, with maybe a neoprene bottom (for insulation) and vents near the top (for heat dispersal)? Start thinking WWRGD? (What would Rube Goldberg do?)

[pinkjimiphoton]

FWIW, I was meaning that a "heat sink" like mass could be used as part of a design to keep a more steady, stable temperature with less fluctuation, not as a heat sink to wick away heat for cooling.

 

no, i understood your idea, kev, the prob is it will also work to make the transistors more sensitive to temperature. it's really weird.

 

just the heat of having a pedal open, heck, even touching the pedal itself can be enough to make it wonky.

 

see, if it's above about 70 degrees, the gain goes up, and the transistors get CLEANER...below about 70, the gain goes down, and it gets "sputtery"...or worse. i guess they need a small fish tank thermostat or something, i dunno!!

 

[pinkjimiphoton]

The Sept. GP issue ("FUZZ") went into this problem in a couple of places, including the Fuzz Face article, and a sidebar titled Germanium 101. For me, much as I love a good Fuzz tone, I don't have any Germanium-based Fuzzes - I can't use something that works some of the time, even if it sounds great when it does work.

 

Jimi, what's the possibility of using something like that tall M&M's can, with maybe a neoprene bottom (for insulation) and vents near the top (for heat dispersal)? Start thinking WWRGD? (What would Rube Goldberg do?)

 

lol...these ideas and suggestions have been bantered around in the diy community for decades now...the prob is there's no fix...that's why they made the switch to silicon about 40 years ago.

 

techically, according to R.(esident)G.(enius)Keene, there's really nothing to do...but...you can use silicon, and if you can find low gain si transistors, the sound is generally close enough for rocknroll.

 

prob is most si trannys have crazy amounts of gain...for a good fuzz, you want somewhere between 60-130 gain, and many modern transistors have gains of 500 or more. too much gain makes that fizzy nasty sound we all hate. there's ways around it, like bootstrapping, but that's still not perfect either.

 

what i ended up doing was using a low gain si for q (transistor)1, and a low gain ge for q2. but...knowing that it would still likely f up, i tested it at room temperature last nite after letting it sit overnite.

 

plugged it in, and was greeted with sputtery farty garbage fuzz...again...for about the first 10 notes. after that, apparently it heated up enough to stabilize and sounded great!

 

weird planet, me boyos..

[Caevan O’Shite]

Jimi, what's the possibility of using something like that tall M&M's can, with maybe a neoprene bottom (for insulation) and vents near the top (for heat dispersal)? Start thinking WWRGD? (What would Rube Goldberg do?)

 

Kinda along the lines of what I was getting at above...

 

Control and hold the temperature, eliminate the inconsistency. It HAS to be possible.

[Winston Psmith]

Jimi, what's the possibility of using something like that tall M&M's can, with maybe a neoprene bottom (for insulation) and vents near the top (for heat dispersal)? Start thinking WWRGD? (What would Rube Goldberg do?)

 

Kinda along the lines of what I was getting at above...

 

Control and hold the temperature, eliminate the inconsistency. It HAS to be possible.

 

So far, I've got a dog on a treadmill (think Jetsons) chasing a hamster in a wheel - if the hamster generates enough power for the pedal, maybe the dog can drive the cooling fan - now what was the stepladder for?

[Caevan O’Shite]

- now what was the stepladder for?

 

To eliminate the need for shoe-mirrors amongst the members of the Lolly Pop Guild?