pizzafilms Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I'm curious. We've all seen sample libraries, especially of acoustic pianos, that say they've sampled each note a a bunch of velocities...8, 12, 24, whatever. How do they do that? Specifically, how do they hit each key at however many velocities, exactly the same? Some kind of mechanical device? Do they get close with a simple finger press and then scale the volume of each sample so it matches? Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 When Ivory came out, they said they used some player, I don't recall her name. I would think a machine would be more consistent, but maybe there's some drawback to that or it's just not worth building. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Dan Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 I've thought a lot about this, and always wondered as well. A mechanism would be pretty simple to create - an arm on a swivel that you could add weights to. Have a consistent release height with a release mechanism. The only problem I thought of is that such a device would likely have some inherent ambient noise that would be undesirable, but maybe no more than a person in a room (breathin and moving). So, IDK if that's how they do it, bu it seems plausible. Dan Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundown Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 That's a fantastic question Pizzafilms... I've often wondered as well. It might be a pretty challenging mechanism (especially given the noise-free requirement). And it would have to compensate for lighter touch as the pitches get higher (I've never played a top notch grand, so I don't know how much the graded action actually changes at the high-end). But when you weigh the cost of designing a mechanism vs. paying a top notch player who can actually hit the right velocities, I would imagine it could be done some way / somehow. Sundown Finished: Gateway, The Jupiter Bluff, Condensation Working on: Driven Away, Eighties Crime Thriller Main axes: Kawai MP11 and Kurz PC361 DAW Platform: Cubase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Here's a thought; if you fit a MIDI sensor system to an acoustic grand (Moog PianoBar, PNOscan, etc), you'll gain visual feedback capability (could be as simple as displaying the MIDI note velocity value). Any professional classically trained pianist has sufficient control to strike a key with consistency when asked, and when coupled with the MIDI velocity measurement, it would be pretty efficient to do. Remember, we're not talking about 127 different samples; even Ivory II only has a maximum of 18 different levels, which should be a pretty broad target for a trained pianist. That's how *I* would approach it, if I were wanting solid, consistent tone across the entire key range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Was it Burningbusch who is doing a Rhodes sample or something like that? He's mapping the samples he is making in software by volume levels. Find the post by him about it. It's pretty interesting. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 It's not enough to match them by volume after the fact. You have to strike the note at all the various velocity levels consistently or your samples will not have the correct tone. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Golly Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 It's not enough to match them by volume after the fact. You have to strike the note at all the various velocity levels consistently or your samples will not have the correct tone. Exactly. I thought it was common knowledge that a piano's tone changes as you strike the key with more force? Not to mention a variety of other factors, but let's not go down that rabbit hole, hmmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridog6996 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I always thought some kind of mechanism was used, but who knows, maybe an actual person is hitting the keys. Truth be told, the minor inaccuracies you'd get with a human player would probably increase the level of realism. My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridog6996 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I've thought a lot about this, and always wondered as well. A mechanism would be pretty simple to create - an arm on a swivel that you could add weights to. Have a consistent release height with a release mechanism. The only problem I thought of is that such a device would likely have some inherent ambient noise that would be undesirable Noise? What noise? http://www.northarvestbean.org/html/images/09-18-06%20wd-40.jpg My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickd Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 There's one approach described here The relevant bit of text says: The recorded piano was equipped with an advanced computer operated playback mechanism that was designed by mathematician, scientist and inventor Wayne Stahnke. The mechanism actually operates the piano keys and pedals with over 1.000 steps accuracy for inverse hammer velocity. The Stancke computer system enabled Amsterdam based sample library producer Michiel Post to capture each velocity layer for this library with absolute velocity levels. These levels guarantee a totally even response across the whole keyboard for all velocities. Anyone know anything about Wayne Stahnke? His work sounds interesting, and Yamaha seems to have bought the rights to some of his patents back in 1991, but my Googling skills are failing me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 It's not enough to match them by volume after the fact. You have to strike the note at all the various velocity levels consistently or your samples will not have the correct tone. Forgive me for simplifying. I'm sure busch was doing that as much as he could as well. In fact, I found the thread and you asked him about that very thing and he replied. https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2254909 "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 In fact, I found the thread and you asked him about that very thing and he replied. https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2254909 Oh for heaven's sake. That's only 3 months ago and I have no memory of asking that. That's a good technique for monitoring intensity of the strike without fancy equipment. Clever lad, that Busch. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 To further clarify how I approached it, the Rhodes was set up by David Ell who is a great technician. He put on new tips and got it as consistent note-to-note as he could be ear. I determined that an fff strike should hit -4db on my meters. For the most part, the majority of the notes did that. If not, I adjusted pickup distance until it is -4db at fff. I then started capturing samples at 20 db levels. I didn't need to sample them in order. For example if the first strike was -7db, I would mark down that I had captured that velocity. If the next strike was again -7db, I would let up on the note and strike again. Each note (20 velocities) was done in a single take. In the editor I would separate each velocity (throw away the short aborted samples), sort them in order and then normalize, apply noise reduction, etc. I don't know if this approach would work with an acoustic piano. With the Rhodes, a tine is a tine but on an acoustic piano I would think that a fff low note is going to be louder than a very high note. I would think a Diskclavier-equipped Yamaha Grand would be relatively easy to sample. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 In fact, I found the thread and you asked him about that very thing and he replied. https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2254909 Oh for heaven's sake. That's only 3 months ago and I have no memory of asking that. That's a good technique for monitoring intensity of the strike without fancy equipment. Clever lad, that Busch. Sorry if my previous post came across harshly. I was just giving you a hard time. Thanks for the info, Busch! "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Sorry if my previous post came across harshly. I was just giving you a hard time. No problem. My dismay is about my bad memory! Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanS Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I wonder more about how the plastic ball in the Guinness cans works it's magic when you pop that sucker open, and it releases it's dark brown goodness. Velocity schmelocity you amateurs... Sorry for the lightness, but I'm on spring break, woo hoo!!! http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y193/Bluntinst/05512_guinness12.jpg What we record in life, echoes in eternity. Montage M7, MOXF8, Electro 6D, XK1c, Motif XS Rack, PolyEvolver, Voyager, Cobalt 8X, Univox MiniKorg. https://www.abandoned-film.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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