PC3 KB3

[SteeVtheRipper]

So I was wondering how the KB3 mode compares to an XK3C. I know that the KB3 is not nearly as versatile as a dedicated clone and I have watched every youtube vid with it. I have played on the PC3LE at my local music store and I think it sounds good. But for those who own it, how deep can you edit it?

 

Does anyone run it through a ventilator? and how does the overall sound compare as far as highs lows etc.

[allan_evett]

Stee-V: I haven't owned, or played an XK-3C in a live, or studio setting. From reading reviews, comments here, and talking to a couple of fellow players that utilize the XK-3C, it seems to be just about the king of hardware clones. I used an XK-2 back in '01/'02, and had an XK-1 for a short time in '09. I feel that, as a dedicated clone, the XK-1 captured more of the soul of the B3 sound than the PC3 I have had since 2008. I'd say the XK-2 and PC3 were very close in sound quality/authenticity.

That said, I feel that the KB3 model sonically surpasses any of the sampled organ tones in ROMplers by Yamaha, Roland, and Korg; one exception being the Roland RD-700 series of digital pianos - which have a VK organ/rotary sim engine on-board. KB3's editing features go quite a ways beyond any of those keyboards, getting quite close in depth to the dedicated clones. The rotary sim. is in the same league, editing-wise: cabinet types, mic positioning, separate control of rotor and horn speed/acceleration and deceleration, etc..

 

There are XK-3C users here who will definitely be able to clue you in on the in-depth features of that clone. Also while I've done some KB3 editing, I'm far from expert when it comes to in-depth, PC3/KB3 sound design. There are a couple of other folks here who have been beta testing PC3 OS 2 for a while, and will likely be able to offer insight into how OS 2 impacts KB3. While it's my understanding that OS2 offers a few improvements to the rotary sim. in KB3, I need a little more time with OS2 to offer any comments here - as I just received/installed my beta copy.

 

I have tried KB3 through a Ventilator, and it definitely takes KB3 up a notch, sonically. But, the Vent' has a way of doing that with just about any organ tone that is put through it - like a Leslie does.

 

[VegasGT3]

The Hammond and the Nord IMHO are at a different level. I've played both and I feel like I'm playing an instrument. The KB3 sounds good, but I don't get the same feeling at all.

 

If you are really into organ and it is a big part of your sound you will notice, if it is just for a few songs, you probably won't. I own both and would love to carry just one board sometimes, but I can't.

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I also own both, the Nord sound is more "in your face" I am one of the 2.0 beta testers - the KB3 sounds themselves are the same, but the Leslie has been improved some - primarily the "pitchiness" of the fast rotor is gone. I also own Guido's VB3 soft-synth Hammond.

 

I would like to have an XK3c - believe it trumps both the Nord and PC3. Not just the sound and Leslie emulation, but closer faithfulness to the real feel of playing a genuine B3. But, I can't really justify it at this point. As mentioned - for those really into organ, either the real thing, an XK3c setup, or the newest B3 from Hammond-Suzuki are the only contenders. Playing a B3 is like the difference between a keyboard and a grand piano - there is just a different FEEL as well as the sound.

 

The Nord's size and weight are an advantage, especially if I just need a quick setup for a couple of songs.

 

However, the Kurz is extremely editable, once one learns a bit about it (the KB3 parameters are different from the VAST parameters). Just a couple of hints from the software wizards that I got back when commenting on certain aspects of the KB3 sound in the beta have opened up things to me to the point where I think I can get a good enough sound from the PC3 - and I am positive that a PC3/Vent combination would get the job done for me.

 

Frankly, having worked as a tech on a thousand or more real Hammond tonewheel organs - all three of them seem to match up in some ways to the originals - there has been a huge variation in the Hammond sound over the years of different models and aging/care of those models.

 

If I could only keep one, it would be the PC3, for its overall sound and versatility, not just its Hammond emulation.

 

[AnotherScott]

The Hammond and the Nord IMHO are at a different level. I've played both and I feel like I'm playing an instrument. The KB3 sounds good, but I don't get the same feeling at all.

 

One thing that makes these comparisons so hard to answer is that we're not all looking for the same organ sounds. The traditional Jazz B3 player is not looking to duplicate the Emerson grinding organ sounds, and some emulations are better in some areas than others.

 

Another variable is the feel of the keyboard, As MoodyBluesKeys said, it's not just sound, it's feel. I see you have a PC3X. Have you ever tried playing its KB3 sounds from one of your unweighted boards, through the Ventilator? I wonder if that would make it closer to what you'd want it to be.

[AnotherScott]

That said, I feel that the KB3 model sonically surpasses any of the sampled organ tones in ROMplers by Yamaha, Roland, and Korg; one exception being the Roland RD-700 series of digital pianos - which have a VK organ/rotary sim engine on-board.

Okay, for completeness' sake... the Korg Oasys includes their CX-3 engine.

 

I've actually really liked some of Yamaha's organ tones... but it really is a different category, when you're talking about "presets" without the ability to do real-time 9-drawbar manipulation (which at least describes the Yamahas I've played).

[Synthoid]

I've actually really liked some of Yamaha's organ tones... but it really is a different category, when you're talking about "presets" without the ability to do real-time 9-drawbar manipulation (which at least describes the Yamahas I've played).

 

You can set up the Motif XS to have 8 "drawbars."

 

 

[AnotherScott]

I've actually really liked some of Yamaha's organ tones... but it really is a different category, when you're talking about "presets" without the ability to do real-time 9-drawbar manipulation (which at least describes the Yamahas I've played).

 

You can set up the Motif XS to have 8 "drawbars."

 

 

Yes, I realized that there are some "drawbar modes" to some Yamahas, but I haven't played those (or at least those patches that permit it), so I didn't want to comment on them. The higher models in their PSR series (S700, S900, S710, S910) also have drawbar modes. I haven't played them, but the demos I heard online sounded surprisingly atrocious. But that was just some guys on youtube...

 

I wasn't aware that the "stock" XS had an full drawbar mode (well, 8 of the 9, anyway), but I know that the Organimation and Organ Sessions add-on packs do provide that capability, the latter actually providing its own new samples as well.

 

The S30/S80 have some nice organ patches... there's a real meaty one called "Tube" that I really like, that I haven't been able to duplicate on an actual clonewheel... the sound is much more a function of their overdrive implementation than anything about the drawbar emulation itself. And I've just started playing with a Motif Rack XS which seems to have some really nice organ sounds (nothing like "Tube" though). I'm thinking about picking up the B's Knees add-on pack for it. It's interesting... as much as I like "real drawbars," the fact is, I really only need a handful of organ sounds to get through most of my gigs, so I might be perfectly happy with "the right patches" and a Ventilator.

[SteeVtheRipper]

I know everyone likes a different organ sound. I was just wondering about the editing and how it compares to a dedicated clone. And as far as the sound I wanted to know how the standard organ sound, without effects, sounds compared to a clone/ real thing (and if someone says the inevitable and obnoxious, "no clone can compare to the real thing" I'm gonna scream haha). I think I read somewhere that someone thought that it lacked in the bass end.

 

I have already decided it's the board I'm getting so I will be dealing with it anyway so it's not a matter of choosing between boards, I am just looking for an insider's perspective.

[Marillo]

 

It's interesting... as much as I like "real drawbars," the fact is, I really only need a handful of organ sounds to get through most of my gigs, so I might be perfectly happy with "the right patches" and a Ventilator.

 

Great point. It's great to know they're there but if I'm honest there are so few songs where I actively use drawbars to any great extent. I just pick the suitable patch and stick with it.

This is one reason why I'm pulling the trigger on a Kurz SP4-7. It's going to give me a good/excellent organ sound for a band context, good/excellent pianos for the same, and great synth/orchestral patches too...I reckon it's going to be the best all-rounder out there, certainly at the price.

[VegasGT3]

 

Another variable is the feel of the keyboard, As MoodyBluesKeys said, it's not just sound, it's feel. I see you have a PC3X. Have you ever tried playing its KB3 sounds from one of your unweighted boards, through the Ventilator? I wonder if that would make it closer to what you'd want it to be.

 

I have not (good thought though), and would not get me to the one board solution. I actually don't have a problem with the feel of a weighted board, it is the sound and the way the sound triggers. I love the ventilator and use a tube pre to warm up the sound. The right amplification makes a difference to me as well.

 

For the music I play I need all sorts of organ textures from Gospel to Deep Purple, from Al Green to Santana for the various bands I play in. I like the different sounds from the KB3 and they are numerous, but It doesn't feel or sound like I'm playing a Hammond with a Leslie (sound wise). It might be how the sound triggers and releases? I used to play a C3 with a Leslie stack and other than the drawbars, I feel I'm pretty close with the Nord and only schlepping 35lbs! The Hammond is great, but it was twice the Nord (I only paid $1,900) for mine brand new) and not worth the extra dough to me. The jazz cat that is fiddling with drawbars all the time needs that. I'm fine with the various presets and adjusting from there.

 

I will try to run the KB3 sounds to the Nord Board just for fun.

[peterkadar]

I owned an XK3c, sold it for a Nord Stage Compact, and have spent several hours with KB3 mode on rented PC3's. I tried everything I could to get KB3 to sound as much like the Nord as possible, and couldn't get it. I also own a vintage C3 and 122.

 

From the drawbar end of things, I think the Nord actually has a more 'scooped mid' quality that isn't necessarity realistic, but does sound good nonetheless. In some parts of the keyboard, KB3 was actually fatter, though it was hard to get the bass from it that I'm used to.

 

I think where the KB3 sim falls most flat is in the chorus/vibrato section, and in the leslie sim. The chorus/vibrato thing was ok, but the nord absolutely nails it. The leslie, in addition to being overly pitchy (something apparetnly corrected in the new OS), also displayed a lack of spaciousness. The nord has a way larger stereo spread that I felt was more realistic.

 

I really dig how many options the KB3 has, but the Nord doesn't seem to need them. It's done so well, that you just turn it on and play it. They don't need to give a ton of options because they got the sound so RIGHT from the get go.

 

I was able to get some really good sounds from the PC3 on gigs, certainly better than any rompler out there. I loved the real drawbars... one big advantage over the nord for sure.

[AnotherScott]

I owned an XK3c, sold it for a Nord Stage Compact, and have spent several hours with KB3 mode on rented PC3's. I tried everything I could to get KB3 to sound as much like the Nord as possible, and couldn't get it. I also own a vintage C3 and 122.

It's kind of funny that you were trying to tweak the KB3 to make it sound as close as possible to your Nord instead of as close as possible to your vintage C3!

 

I think where the KB3 sim falls most flat is in the chorus/vibrato section, and in the leslie sim.

It's actually pretty encouraging to me that those are its areas of failure, since I actually don't use C/V, and the leslie sim--which as you say is being improved compared to what you have--can also be worked around with a Ventilator if need be. It's also interesting that you felt that one of the failures of the leslie sim was in its stereo spaciousness, since that is also not necessarily a big limitation for everyone, as those who play through PA systems tend to go mono anyway.

[Outkaster]

You sold an XK-3C for a Nord? That was your first mistake.

[David Loving]

allan evett - pray tell, when you run the PC3 through the Vent. do you cancel out the fx or what? I'd like to try the Vent on a PC2 I have at a rehearsal studio. I use the vent on a XK3 and it really makes that instrument sound right. I use a Nord for light weight. The organ passes for true pretty well.

[AnotherScott]

You sold an XK-3C for a Nord? That was your first mistake.

While that's definitely a step backwards in terms of organ, I can understand why someone would do it, if they still consider the organ "good enough" -- the Stage weighs half as much, and adds a ton of other functionality (pianos, VA synth, more MIDI controller capabilities)

[Outkaster]

Yeah but you sacrifice a lot in sound. I guess for one stop shopping the Nord can't be beat. There are a lot of people using them compared to XK-3C's but it is a great board to give up.

[allan_evett]

allan evett - pray tell, when you run the PC3 through the Vent. do you cancel out the fx or what? I'd like to try the Vent on a PC2 I have at a rehearsal studio. I use the vent on a XK3 and it really makes that instrument sound right. I use a Nord for light weight. The organ passes for true pretty well.

 

daviel - I selected my KB3 Program of choice, edited to eliminate the rotary speaker effect (You can select "None" under "Insert" on the PROG FX page; also check to remove/adjust to taste any other effects under AUX 1, or AUX 2), then assigned the sound to Aux Out 1 (I'm not in front of my PC3 at the moment, so I can't recall the Edit page on which I re-assigned the output).

I don't know how that process works on the PC2. Probably the easiest/most direct way to hear the Vent. w/KB3 - on either keyboard - is to use the Effects Bypass on the front panel. I wanted to have a separate Program stored in my PC3 for Vent' use; so I set one up in the manner described above.

[peterkadar]

Yeah, I miss the XK3c... but when I play, I usually have a clonewheel as the top board over my stage piano. I found the XK to be so large and heavy (especially once in a case) that I wasn't bringing it out to most gigs. Plus it was awkward to have as a 'top' board. The nord still sounds great, though not as good as the XK, has a ton of great EP's etc. in it, it weighs very little, and it's a better midi controller in some ways too.

 

Haing said that, I miss the XK... I'll probably get one again someday.

 

I don't keep the C3 at home, it's in a commercial facility downtown... so I was comparing the KB3 to the Nord. Another advantage to that was that they were running through the same monitors, as opposed to a Leslie 122 vs. monitors. I think that makes for a more fair comparison.

 

I still liked the KB3... it's by far the best organ sim in a workstation... this side of an Oasys anyway...

[Theo Verelst]

The XK3 isn´t known to me but I´ve done some moderate depth programming on the PC3, so I suspect it isn´t up to *all* the warm deep sounds of a even better simulation of the real sound, including the cabinet (isn´t really modeled much in the kb3) but *with* extra editing if you´re good at it it does have potentional for some killer organ sounds, and the KDFX probably aren´t the real leslie, but 16 units of kdfx is quite powerful do make nice and full sounds with, but again probably with editing (i´ve got some KB3 sounds, not all sounds I made, on my server).

 

Depending on how slow your amp/speakers are and how they overdrive, it isn´t very likely you´ll get the B3 presence by jacking in and playing some of the presets, they´re often midrange-ish, but more than average organ sounds, with controls and usually the sustain controlling a bearable leslie, some pretty good, but none as good as I´ve made some efforts (without finishing the "final" setup of sounds for my organ needs), and I´m not sure exactly how far the comparison with the "real thing" can go, but for a band the sounds probably will work in the midrange, being a bit pushy and the distortion in the presets often borders on clip-like sounds, which isn´t all too cool. Again: also this can be edited with somepretty good results, but often not easily.

 

Theo