A/Bing the new QSC K10 with the old Traynor K4

[VLH]

I look forward to the comparison of the EV and QSC!

[Mark Schmieder]

I did a listening test this morning at Leo's Pro Audio in Oakland CA of the QSC K8 vs. the E/V ZXA1-90B, and the E/V blew the QSC out of the water.

 

I used a Yamaha S90XS since that's more or less the same set as the MOTIF sound set, which I'm familiar with. Of course I turned reverb and other effects off, and then ran through my usual tests with piano, Rhodes, French Horn, Cello, and "Lucky Man" portamento sweeps and lead/bass playing.

 

The E/V had more depth to the sound stage, a more even response, and more detail in the sound plus faster transients. Overall a warmer sound as well, but very natural and not at all hyped. It didn't have any "hot spots" in the low-mids like the QSC K8 -- though, as mentioned earlier, I could live with the QSC K8 as it wasn't at an annoying level (around C1 as I recall).

 

Furthermore, unlike the QSC, the E/V can be placed on the floor in a wedge position like a floor monitor, and though I tried it both ways (and without adjusting the horn orientation), I liked it better lengthwise -- though this was more from a comfort point of view and dispersion than the actual sonic character being different in the two positions.

 

I was careful to match the settings of levels etc. on both speakers and not engage any of the special features.

 

I wouldn't feel right buying it on-line after taking time from the helpful staff at Leo's, so will buy it at Leo's when the time comes. Maybe soon, maybe not -- my ads are selling fast, but I still have to rebalance my budget after the surgery.

 

There is a factory resealed unit that is much cheaper at samedaymusic.com, and is eligible for an additional 10% off before their phone-in sale ends later today. But I will not be taking advantage of that sale, due to personal ethics.

[Mark Schmieder]

I should add that the QSC K8 is much more bass-y than the E/V, but I found the bass response in the E/V more even and natural. For those who need a pumping bass for house sound or to cut through on stage, the QSC (especially the larger ones, or any of them with the bass boost switch engaged), might be a better match.

[ITGITC]

That's cool Mark.

 

It's nice to have a choice.

 

Here's a LINK to the EV.

 

Tom

 

[AnotherScott]

I should add that the QSC K8 is much more bass-y than the E/V, but I found the bass response in the E/V more even and natural.

Interesting. On paper at least, the EV goes down further. It sounds like maybe the QSC doesn't go down to as low a frequency, but may have a bit of a "bump" in the frequency response of the low end that it does have, which could indeed make it sound "bassier but less even and natural."

 

I finally actually got to see a ZXA1, though haven't had a chance to hear one yet. It looks nicely designed, and I think the shape that allows it to work on its side works very well in terms of giving you the angle you want while keeping the connectors out of the way of the floor, despite the cabinet's relatively small size.

 

My one complaint is that it doesn't really have a handle. It has an indentation. There's nothing you can curl your hand around. The indentation isn't even terribly deep... if you have long fingers, you might hit the end earlier than you'd like. And also, the interior surface is very smooth. If your hand aren't totally dry, I can imagine it feeling very slippery. Especially considering the weight distribution is such that it does feel like it may want to tend to pull away from your grip.

[VLH]

cheaper, lighter, sounds better. What's not to like about that?

[Mark Schmieder]

Scott,

 

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I was rushing out for an annual worker safety meeting when I wrote that, so didn't have a chance to complete my thoughts, but you figured it out on your own.

 

I always believe in trusting the ears over what one reads. I too was surprised based on the specs. Different manufacturers make different choices about how to deal with specs though.

 

As someone who works in the loudspeaker business, I'm well aware of the differing degrees of honesty among the vendors. And no, I'm not going to name names, as this is a publicly searchable forum and it could come back to haunt my employer (though we've probably said these same things in white papers and at conferences).

 

The main point though, is that frequency response, when listed as an end range of two numbers, is generally meant to indicate where the behaviour ceases being roughly linear in character. So there's a qualitative assessment involved, and not a strictly quantitative decision point.

[Mark Schmieder]

Oh, as for the grip issue, is there a bag for the E/V? I haven't checked yet. RMC Audio has the QSC series bags, which are nicely made. I'll see if I can track down E/V bags, unless someone beats me to the punch. That might alleviate the ergonomics of carrying the speaker itself.

[GovernorSilver]

Oh, as for the grip issue, is there a bag for the E/V? I haven't checked yet. RMC Audio has the QSC series bags, which are nicely made. I'll see if I can track down E/V bags, unless someone beats me to the punch. That might alleviate the ergonomics of carrying the speaker itself.

 

Let us know if you find a bag. I didn't consider the EV ZXA1, even though I own an SXA 360, until you mentioned it. The ZXA1 at its price range and 19lb weight appears to be an even better fit for me than the QSC K8.

[Mark Schmieder]

I haven't had time, sorry. I'm first going to look at the whole series, as the e-stores are confusing (musiciansfriend etc.). I think Leo's might have other sizes in the series, so I probably should first do a shootout of those, now that I've ruled out QSC.

 

Actually, if I find the E/V site easy to navigate (many vendors have maddening websites these days), probably the bags would show up there, unless they are third-party (or generic like Gator).

[BlackandWhite]

I did a listening test this morning at Leo's Pro Audio in Oakland CA of the QSC K8 vs. the E/V ZXA1-90B, and the E/V blew the QSC out of the water.

 

Interesting. I was considering to add a second K10. I'll have to check out the ZXA1 first. Wish it add two sets of inputs, ala the Ks.

[Mark Schmieder]

Here's the general product page for the E/V ZX series:

 

http://www.electrovoice.com/family.php?id=59

 

Here's the link for the ZXA1 engineering data sheet:

 

http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/downloads/ZxA1-90_EDS.pdf

 

Note that it only has one input, unlike the QSC K-series, so you'd need a line mixer or table-top mixer if using multiple keyboards (thus, I might have to take my line mixer off the market).

 

I still find the differentiation of some of those models quite confusing. Maybe some are older models that are kept in production.

 

Oh, it seems the ZX-series is passive and the brand-new ZXA-series is self-powered (with "A" for "amplifier").

 

So, the only other self-powered model currently is the ZXA5:

 

http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/downloads/ZX5Brochure2007_LRes.pdf

 

http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/downloads/ZX5Brochure2007_LRes.pdf

 

There's quite a gap between the 8" and 15" models, so maybe it pays to wait a bit and see if they release a 10" or 12" model?

 

On the other hand, these all seem based off of the original passive ZX-series models, so we may see a 12" model in the ZXA self-powered series, but probably not a 10" model.

 

Here's a good review of the ZXA1 (there's also one at Musician's Friend):

 

http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/downloads/PAR_ZXA1_Review_July_2010.pdf

 

I didn't see any information related to carrying bags or covers.

 

The newest trend is towards built-in weather-protection that also serves as an aid in carrying. Our own recent models have addressed these requests and I am seeing this in our competitors as well as lower levels of the market. Carrying bags and/or covers may soon be a thing of the past. Lots of innovative new designs that simultaneously attempt to not call visual attention to the protection, handles, or whatever.

[AnotherScott]

I'll have to check out the ZXA1 first. Wish it add two sets of inputs, ala the Ks.

Although its I/O is not as versatile as QSC's, it does have two inputs.

 

As for bags, they make two... a drawstring-style gig bag, and a padded zippered bag with a carry strap (neither of which I've seen in person). Still, I'd have liked a better way to grip it outside of any bag. Not only is the top "handle" pretty lame, there's no side grip, either. So hoisting it on and off a speaker pole might be awkward too. Luckily, the issue is offset somewhat by its light weight.

 

Anyway, you can see the bags on this PDF:

 

http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefiles/downloads/ZXA1Flyer_Final_web1.pdf

[Mark Schmieder]

Thanks for the link regarding the bags. It's amazing how E/V runs their website with gazillions of seemingly redundant documents, none of which have 100% overlap of information!

 

Scott, what do you mean about two distinct inputs? Do you just mean using a TRS to XLR connector for one keyboard, and standard 1/4" for the other, to take advantage of parallel inputs?

 

I'll have to check whether their are mix level issues involved, such as different impedance levels. Lots of reading to do now!

[AnotherScott]

Scott, what do you mean about two distinct inputs? Do you just mean using a TRS to XLR connector for one keyboard, and standard 1/4" for the other, to take advantage of parallel inputs?

It has two distinct inputs. One is XLR and includes a mic preamp; the second can take and XLR or a 1/4" and does not include a mic preamp. Though instead of giving each on its own volume control as on the QSC, it has a master volume control, and a secondary volume control just for the second input to allow you to balance its level to the first input. Each approach has its pros and cons. The QSC is simpler, in that each item has its own levels instead of having to adjust one relative to the other, but the trade-off is there's no way to turn one knob and raise or lower everything together.

 

The extra connectivity the QSC has are its additional RCA inputs, the fact that both its main inputs can take 1/4" jacks (instead of only one), and it has additional pass-thrus for the two main inputs individually (both units have a pass-thru for the summed signal).

[Mark Schmieder]

OK, that's what I thought, and I consider it a disadvantage as the mic pre-amp might be noisy on the E/V. It would probably be better to feed it a pre-mixed signal on a 1/4" plug.

[AnotherScott]

OK, that's what I thought, and I consider it a disadvantage as the mic pre-amp might be noisy on the E/V. It would probably be better to feed it a pre-mixed signal on a 1/4" plug.

 

This is not an advantage or disadvantage in comparing these two units. Both the QSC and the EV have two XLR inputs, one of which includes a mic preamp, there is no difference there. In both cases you can use Input 1 for either a Mic or a Line Level input, and Input 2 must be a line level input.

 

There is a difference in the connectors, though, in that on the QSC, you can use XLR or 1/4" connectors on either input, whereas on the EV, the 1/4" option is only supported on the second input.

[Dave Ferris]

 

There's quite a gap between the 8" and 15" models, so maybe it pays to wait a bit and see if they release a 10" or 12" model?

 

On the other hand, these all seem based off of the original passive ZX-series models, so we may see a 12" model in the ZXA self-powered series, but probably not a 10" model.

.

 

Fwiw, this guy stocked up on a lot of the discontinued EV SXA360s.

http://www.idjnow.com/SoftContent/locations.aspx

I thought he said he was under 12 for a pair, it's been about 3 months since I talked to him so don't hold me to it but I tihnk it's worth checking out. I sold my EV 360s to Brian here on the forum and he likes them. I haven't a/b 'd the QSCs and the 360s personally, but a friend did in St. Louis after he bought the K12s...he took back the QSCs and got the EVs--- again fwiw.

[Mark Schmieder]

Probably they're in tight competition and the pendulum will swing back and forth with each new model line from the two respective companies. :-)

 

And that can't be bad for us consumers. :-)

[Mark Schmieder]

I can't find anything in the spec sheets or user manual that indicates the impedance levels of the combined TRS/XLR "line" channel vs. the XLR "mic" channel, but based on the block diagram and the overall specs, I am guessing that this is no different than a typical mixer that has some channels at line level only and other with optional boost or cut via a mic-level pre-amp. The Yamaha MG-series mixers comes to mind, for one.

 

In other words, I think it likely that using a TRS to XLR connector from one keyboard's mono output and either the same cable type or a 1/4" to 1/4" cable from a second keyboard's mono output, and leaving the mix balance roughly at 0 dB, effectively bypasses the mic pre-amp and treats the two signals as both being at line level.

 

But that's only if the impedance is the same. One cannot presume impedance from connector type -- there are too many scenarios for each cable type. I suppose I could give E/V a call. Or maybe just ask someone at Leo's Pro Audio if they know.

[BlackandWhite]

In other words, I think it likely that using a TRS to XLR connector from one keyboard's mono output and either the same cable type or a 1/4" to 1/4" cable from a second keyboard's mono output, and leaving the mix balance roughly at 0 dB, effectively bypasses the mic pre-amp and treats the two signals as both being at line level.

 

Yeah, my thoughts, too. Ok, not exactly. I just want to try one at tomorrow's outdoor gig with 2 kbs and my K10. I have a call in to Associated Sound, the (apparently) only supplier in Sacramento area.

[Mark Schmieder]

I just got off the phone with Leo's Pro Audio, and though they don't have any specs beyond what we've seen on-line, they're pretty sure the mic input is 150 ohms and the line input is 600 ohms, and that using both as keyboard inputs will not play well.

 

We're going to set it up with two keyboards Monday when I stop on my way to work, to test it out.

 

I'm buying it anyway, so it just affects whether I need to keep my line mixer or not.

 

If you discover something this weekend on your own, it will accelerate my line mixer decision, of course. All of my other ads have sold, with some money effectively in escrow but most in cash, so I will probably bring one of these home Monday.

[AnotherScott]

I just got off the phone with Leo's Pro Audio, and though they don't have any specs beyond what we've seen on-line, they're pretty sure the mic input is 150 ohms and the line input is 600 ohms, and that using both as keyboard inputs will not play well.

 

I think you're on the right track here. Looking more closely at the back panels, the difference between Input 1 on the QSC vs the EV isn't just that the QSC can take a 1/4" in on that input... there's also a hard mic/line switch to defeat the mic preamp, whereas the mic preamp on the EV's Input 1 looks to be always engaged. So it's really designed for 1 mic and 1 line, whereas the QSC is designed for 1 switchable-mic-or-line and 1 line (plus the RCA). So 2 (mono) keyboards could directly feed a QSC, but you'd probably want a line mixer for the EV.

[Mark Schmieder]

Yeah, I think that's right.

 

As mentioned in my ad follow-up, for me personally, I think the likelihood of needing two keyboards at once on-stage, is so slim at this point (it's been years since I've done that, as I was only using one synth live even with the 80's cover band and with Moonlife), that I needn't let the line mixer issue determine anything.

 

Obviously that is not true for most people on this forum, so the practical considerations of the E/V vs. the QSC might add up quickly in the QSC's favour. And like I said, they do both sound great, it's just that I feel the E/V is more natural and even/balanced and that this especially shows itself on acoustic patches.

 

There are other dual keyboard setups where one would likely use different amplification and playback anyway. For instance, traditional e-pianos and organ often excel going through some sort of Leslie system, whether with rotor or not (there are several options with the 2100 series). Or even a Speakeasy.

[AnotherScott]

There are other dual keyboard setups where one would likely use different amplification and playback anyway.

 

Also, there are some dual-keyboard set-ups where the output of one keyboard can be fed into a line input on the second, and you can send the merged signal out to the amp. This was actually something I thought was an unnecessary feature on the PX-3, but people quickly pointed out how useful it could be, and here's another example.

[Mark Schmieder]

That's actually better, because you can more easily make adjustments as you play, and also not be bothered by dark spaces where it may be hard to see gear that is closer to the floor.

[genesisfan]

When seeking the highest in fidelity in music there are no shortcuts

Try adding the Subwoofer by QSC!

Once introduced as a 2.1 into your personal live PA

The low end will roll off your monitors around 45Hz allowing the subwoofer to eat the lo frequency spectrum way down the low end of 20Hz with earth shaking results!!!!

Even the QSC8's may be more than enough in the Hi end & midrange complemented by the QSC Subwoofer!!

[genesisfan]

BTW:

GENESIS "Firth of Fifth" for the lowest in sub bass and Taurus pedals

[Mark Schmieder]

Having had roaring success with a gazillion frecent local and forum sales, I am picking up the E/V ZXA1 tomorrow morning (if it hasn't sold), and will bring it to jazz rehearsal Wednesday to loan for a week so the bandleader can decide if he want to sell his Roland KC550 and his two Peavey keyboard combo amps and simplify with an E/V plus Yamaha mini-mixer solution.

 

Given that he is using a Korg Triton as his main board, occasionally augmented by a Nord Electro 2, I am wondering whether the Triton is a good test of ANY speaker, being such a harsh keyboard (especially for bread and butter sounds). I guess the proof will be in the pudding. I'll try it first on my PC3x and P'08, so I'm not disappointed. :-)

 

To genesisfan: are you mounting a pole atop the QSC sub, or stacking directly atop it? Do you find the K-series sub to be awkward to carry? Are the lines connected to the sub and then the sub connected to the mains, or some other strategy?

[Mark Schmieder]

Having just spent about two hours with the E/V ZXA1 using my Hammond XK1 and my Kurzweil PC3X, I've got a pretty good idea of its strengths and weaknesses now, and the overall the synopsis is that this was a wise purchase, but I've got some work to do to acoustically treat my apartment.

 

The Hammond organ sounds marvelous and very even across its range, as do all orchestral instruments, choir patches, and synth patches (basses, leads, pads). Most electric pianos sound quite good as well. Chromatic percussion is good but not perfect. Harpsichord is quite good.

 

The weak point is acoustic piano, which sounds a bit boxy and even boomy. I suspect this is due to the wood floor beneath the carpeting, and that a platform would help. But it may be that acoustic piano, being a full range instrument, works better on a 12" speaker than an 8" speaker. Or it could be a reflection on the PC3X pianos.

 

In comparison to my full range powered 12" Bergantino bass cabinet, everything except acoustic piano sounded way better on the E/V. Well, maybe chromatic percussion and some electric piano patches were a break-even between the two loudspeakers (remembering that they too are full-range instruments).

 

Using this loudspeaker wedge style is a no-go in my apartment, as it increases the surface area along the carpeted wood floor. A small platform might help; I should have moved my subwoofer platform to try but now it's past curfew so that will have to wait until another time.

 

Even standing it upright on the carpet is not good enough in my apartment; I'll need to stand it atop my bass cabinet instead, or put it on a platform. I really want to avoid using a post.

 

I found that the volume is so loud at 0 dB trim/gain that I needed to cut at least 6 dB if not 12 dB going in, and that was still with the keyboards less than halfway up to max volume. Additionally, the two inputs are the same level after all, so the combined input actually is line level until adding mic gain.

 

I used a 1/4" TRS to XLR cable to connect to the combined mic/line input to perform that test. I did find, however, that combining two keyboards in this loudspeaker got a bit muddy. Probably because my test was Hammond B3 with acoustic piano. I didn't try other combinations.

 

Of course each keyboard, patch, and residence or hall is different. I suspect this will sound better at gigs, as it sounded better at Leo's Pro Audio than in my apartment. Even so, it is a huge improvement over using studio monitors or a bass cabinet. And I'm confident this was a better match for me than the QSC series.

 

Unless I can tame the excessive bass though, I may need to use on-board EQ on the keyboards when playing at home.