jeremy c Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 I've been making copies of cds made by forum members and selling them for $2 apiece. That's a fair price. A blank cd only costs a few cents. On the good ones, I changed the cover art and put my own name on the front and I'm selling those for $15. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicklab Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 Where's Lars Ulrich when you need him? Obligatory Social Media Link "My concern is, and I have to, uh, check with my accountant, that this might bump me into a higher, uh, tax..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 zeronyne, Yeah, I know there is more to a signal path than the vacuum tubes involved, but robb basically made the point that I guess I didn't articulate too well. I'll remember you guys' comments about intellectual property the next time you play a Sadowsky, Nash, Alleva-Copollo, Schecter, Charvel, or virtually any other instrument whose maker basically copied Fender! This is a banal, intellectually vacant argument. Difference between all those companies and B***er is that the patent had long since expired on the Fender body shape when the copying started. What B***er does is steal ideas that are well within patent limits, often times as soon as they are released, in hopes of beating the patent rulings, to make as much money as possible before they get sued.... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 I call hyping your product to the point that it's several thousand percent overvalued and selling it to people who have more money than sense thievery. It's abuse of supply & demand. They aren't doing anything a lot of companies don't. How freakin' many Tube Screamer clones are out there, or pedals with one or two different resistors or capacitors from another boutique pedal just like it? The only difference is that Behringer is selling them for reasonable prices. Your idea of reasonable price is completely rooted in modern "wait and it'll get cheaper" philosophy, brought on primarily by the PC industry. What you (and others like you) don't understand is that the "cheaper" versions of new technology outside the PC industry are built from cheaper components, by cheaper (and less skilled) labor, and are far more likely to fail quickly than the vanguard versions. Great example: The VHS player. When it was first released, average price range was around $500-800. Those early units were built like frickin' tanks. Hell, my mother has one she bought in 1982 that still runs like a champ, as does a buddy of mine who is a loony-toon collector of electronics, who has five such machines that all run perfectly. Meanwhile, if you buy one off the shelf nowadays, it might cost you $30 - but it'll barely outlast the 90 day warranty. What people like you don't realize is that quality construction costs money - people who build these things gotta eat, you know? And while B***r just puts their city over in China to work, the folks who build boutique amps by hand, here in the States, with absolutely strict QC (no unit leaves the house without a thorough test), and use the best components they can access, they gotta eat too... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpelstiltskin. Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 A pedal with two chips and a printed circuit board selling for $200-$1000 is obscene, especially when the prices are built on a hyped reputation. that presumes the engineering is free, along with the workspace, electricity, health care, and whatever else is involved in starting a business. Maybe with a few spoilers like Behringer in the mix, the other companies will figure out that they can't get away with gouging the market for whatever they can convince a credulous public their creations are worth. peavey's mission has always been to provide quality musical equipment at an affordable price. the definition of affordable is as much a sliding scale as is the number of basses needed to have a "complete" collection. behringer's prices put a lot of pressure on peavey to improve their designs, sourcing, and manufacturing processes in order to compete. peavey did improve what they were delivering to their customers. this is a good result, even if the thing that brought about change is hardly ideal. robb. because i like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Your idea of reasonable price is completely rooted in modern "wait and it'll get cheaper" philosophy, brought on primarily by the PC industry. No, I'm more of a dinosaur than that. I recall when a fuzz box cost about $30-50, maybe $50-100 if it was super dyno-supreme. That was before the "boutique/vintage" hype came along, and price started being based on mythology instead of the materials+labor. Sure prices have gone up on everything, but not to the extent that a gadget which costs $15-$50 to make should be priced $300-$500. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moot Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Wow. Once again my opinion has been proven for me. "He is to music what Stevie Wonder is to photography." getz76 I have nothing nice to say so . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Your idea of reasonable price is completely rooted in modern "wait and it'll get cheaper" philosophy, brought on primarily by the PC industry. No, I'm more of a dinosaur than that. I recall when a fuzz box cost about $30-50, maybe $50-100 if it was super dyno-supreme. That was before the "boutique/vintage" hype came along, and price started being based on mythology instead of the materials+labor. Sure prices have gone up on everything, but not to the extent that a gadget which costs $15-$50 to make should be priced $300-$500. Actually, even back in the late 80's when I first started playing, the cheapest pedal you could buy new was around $60, and it was a piece of crap - can't remember the name for the life of me. The "good" stuff by Boss, DOD, et al, was up over $100. EH hadn't started re-releasing their stuff, so if you could get hold of a Big Muff on the used market, it was pretty spiffy. Fast forward through 20 years of inflation, and it's a frickin' miracle even those pedals have maintained relative price point. Of course, instead of made in Japan, they're now made in Korea/China, but still... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Actually, even back in the late 80's when I first started playing, the cheapest pedal you could buy new was around $60, and it was a piece of crap - can't remember the name for the life of me. The "good" stuff by Boss, DOD, et al, was up over $100. EH hadn't started re-releasing their stuff, so if you could get hold of a Big Muff on the used market, it was pretty spiffy. I started playing in the mid 60's, and believe me, it was 20 years of inflation to get where a piece of crap fuzz box was $60 instead $25. I told you, I am a dinosaur. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 I started playing in the mid 60's, and believe me, it was 20 years of inflation to get where a piece of crap fuzz box was $60 instead $25. I told you, I am a dinosaur. Then you need one of these pedals (and it's only $42.50). http://www.dinosauramps.com/images/l-dod1.jpg Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 Actually, even back in the late 80's when I first started playing, the cheapest pedal you could buy new was around $60, and it was a piece of crap - can't remember the name for the life of me. The "good" stuff by Boss, DOD, et al, was up over $100. EH hadn't started re-releasing their stuff, so if you could get hold of a Big Muff on the used market, it was pretty spiffy. I started playing in the mid 60's, and believe me, it was 20 years of inflation to get where a piece of crap fuzz box was $60 instead $25. I told you, I am a dinosaur. Right, so by all correct standards, even the shitty boxes should be over $120, never mind the "decent" ones, which went from $50 to $120 in 20 years, and (following the curve) should be over $200 by now. Suddenly $350 for a boutique piece (made in USA, hand built, each unit fully tested before release) isn't so far fetched, when inflation should have demanded the mediocre (DOD, Boss, et al, mass-produced in Japan, 1 out of 1,000 actually hard-tested) stuff to be around $200... Rocktek - that was the name I couldn't recall when referring to the cheap crap from the 80's. Boy, were those pedals shitty - but when you're 17 and can't afford anything better, you figured out how to make it work, including (back then) replacing components on the PCB to improve the response, since time was a much more available commodity than cash, and Rat Shack actually used to sell electronic components IN THE STORE.... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 Yeah, I guess it isn't so far fetched, at least till you start adding up the actual cost of the components, and factor in the fact that the engineering costs are minimal because they are all just modifications to previously designed circuits. There are no "new" circuits in effects pedals, just modifications to the old ones. The prices aren't built on actual costs, they are based on "mojo", and the reputations of players who've used them. When you realize what's going on, what you're buying is crap and blue sky. You're welcome to pay whatever you want for it, and so am I. By the way, if you read one of the articles linked in this thread, one of the lawsuits filed against Behringer was lost because the patent office made it clear that patents do not extend to circuit board designs. It's hard to say a circuit is covered by patent after that... Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 I didn't say I was buying $350 boutique pedals. Hell, the only "pedal" I use on my bass rig is one of those cheap Zoom jobbers, and that's just so I have a tuner - and the only pedals I use on my guitar rig are an old TS and a wah I bought used. Did you actually add up the cost of the components (audiophile grade, mind you) for a clean boost pedal that actually is clean and neutral? Did you then spend time assembling one to calculate labor costs? Did you price out enough warehouse space to set up an assembly line here in the US? Did you then get quotes from a die shop for the cost of the stamped steel for the case on short run quantities? While we're wondering, did you figure in the cost of paying back the loan you had to take to pay for that warehouse space AND get enough raw material inventory to actually build your first few runs of these units? When you got done doing all that, did you figure anything in for profit margin? Or did you just write that off as doing your good deed for society? A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcadmus Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 I think we need to start a thread on free-market economics. "Tours widely in the southwestern tip of Kentucky" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 Nah, we really don't. Some folks have a distorted view of material and labor costs for short run by small shops versus multimillion unit runs by huge corporations. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcadmus Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 Nah, we really don't. Some folks have a distorted view of material and labor costs for short run by small shops versus multimillion unit runs by huge corporations. Which is why we need a thread on free-market economics -- supply and demand, economies of scale, total cost of ownership, stuff like that. "Tours widely in the southwestern tip of Kentucky" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wraub Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 Also do not forget that Boss is a subsidiary of a much larger corporation with many, many other products with which to absorb "loss leaders" and many places for R&D time spent to pay off. Just sayin'. Peace, wraub I'm a lot more like I am now than I was when I got here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby LowTones Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 (Snip)... By the way, if you read one of the articles linked in this thread, one of the lawsuits filed against Behringer was lost because the patent office made it clear that patents do not extend to circuit board designs. It's hard to say a circuit is covered by patent after that... Just to clarify, I think it was more about the Printed Circuit Board layout than about the electronic design itself. For example, there isn't than many ways to dress a non-inverting op-amp on a PCB. This doen't mean I agree with someone copying a PCB artwork from someone else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Also do not forget that Boss is a subsidiary of a much larger corporation with many, many other products with which to absorb "loss leaders" and many places for R&D time spent to pay off. But more importantly, it's a HELL of a lot cheaper to use automated SMA and cheap surface-mount parts than it is to even flow-solder with quality parts, never mind hand-solder with quality parts - and we're not even getting into the cost of contract labor in 3rd world countries versus paying someone a decent wage (and the associated paying Uncle Sam) here... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpelstiltskin. Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 http://www.glogster.com/media/1/3/82/59/3825958.jpg robb. because i like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik da blues Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Don't you guys have day jobs? you sure spend alot of time BS-ing over stuff that is pretty obvious to good musicians. if someone wants to buy Beringer garbage, let 'em! Iv'e learned as a 40 yr. bass player and american consumer, you generally get what you pay for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik da blues Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 By the way....when's the last time you saw a Behringer rig on any stage of importance? I play Fender american (59 P bass, 67 jazz, Ampeg svt's, Bergantino cabs), and I frankly don't think you need a bunch of effects and active electronics. Just my opinion of course as we play 'rockin' blues, but if you can't achieve good tone tone w/ good equipment, your mind and your fingers, you'd best stick w/ that day job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honkndown-low Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 You guys are too funny, until someone has owned and spent some time playing one of these Bugera Heads, I would say it would be hard to pass Judgement. The WEB Site says they are still awaiting FCC approval to sell them here. No doubt in my mind they could pull of reasonable quality at that price point. Play it, live with it and then judge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Hi, Rik, welcome to the forum. Get to know us before talking about day jobs. My day job is playing bass. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picker Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 By the way....when's the last time you saw a Behringer rig on any stage of importance? I play Fender american (59 P bass, 67 jazz, Ampeg svt's, Bergantino cabs), and I frankly don't think you need a bunch of effects and active electronics. Just my opinion of course as we play 'rockin' blues, but if you can't achieve good tone tone w/ good equipment, your mind and your fingers, you'd best stick w/ that day job! Thank you for that unsolicited opinion. Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcadmus Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Don't you guys have day jobs? you sure spend alot of time BS-ing over stuff that is pretty obvious to good musicians. if someone wants to buy Beringer garbage, let 'em! Iv'e learned as a 40 yr. bass player and american consumer, you generally get what you pay for! You're pretty obvious to good musicians. "Tours widely in the southwestern tip of Kentucky" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik da blues Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Sorry you guys, I appologize for being judgemental. You clearly are all seasoned players and I didn't mean to hit on your day jobs. I wish I were a good enough player to have it be my day job! I live out in the sticks between Sacramento and Reno, and it's tough enough to find venues to support week-end fun let alone a comfortable living. I guees i'll just have to continue being a general contractor loosing my ass in a depressed market and play bass to try and mantain my sanity? I repect all of you and thanx for allowing me to express my unsolicited opinion! God, I wish I could make that Jazz sound like Will Lee!!! Tx again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby LowTones Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 By the way....when's the last time you saw a Behringer rig on any stage of importance? (...snip) Welcome aboard, Rik! FYI, We played a gig in an arena and didn't have an appropriate PA. So we rented a system from a big shop, and paid for a soundman too. Neat equip, good soundman - except all DI boxes were Behringer. Guess what? Pops, cracking noises and hum during the intro. Guess what again? We replaced two DI boxes with our own (non-Behringer) boxes from our emergency kit... From there, gig was a big success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Play it, live with it and then judge it. Just don't take too long, because the store won't take it back after 30 days... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danzilla Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 There are no "new" circuits in effects pedals, just modifications to the old ones. Really? How many old pedals use quantum tunnelling in their circuits, like the Acoustic Imaginearing Quantum Drive? "Am I enough of a freak to be worth paying to see?"- Separated Out (Marillion) NEW band Old band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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