Can't afford an SVT?

[calypsocoral]

I apologize if this is a re-post (I don't think it is)...

 

But, if you're like me, and you've been drooling over the prospect of obtaining an Ampeg SVT, but just don't have the moolah, you may want to check THIS OUT!

 

3*12AX7's, 2*12AU7's, and 6*6550's-- if it isn't a dead-on reproduction of the "modern" SVT signal path, it's gotta be pretty darned close.

 

It MSRP's at $1029.99 (street price might approach $800).

 

Regarding quality, yes, Bugera is the off-shoot of Behringer. I have, however, been acquainted with some guitarists in a few other music forums. They confirm that the first batches of Bugera amps did have some quality control issues, but that they have been hammered-out since then. Time will tell.

 

In the meantime, I'd love to see how these work with a Basson 8x10!

[zeronyne]

I think your definition of "hammered out" is different than mine. Like everyone else, I only have anecdotal information combined with my limited experience, but I have yet to hear anything good about Behringer apart from its price. What I do see at the two music stores I frequent is a slew of repairs...cold solder joints, faulty circuit boards, blown speakers.

 

And the whole morality of intellectual property theft has been done to death here, so let's not open that can of worms.

 

It's not available in North America. If you find one for sale here, it's definitely black market since it has yet to pass FCC compliance.

[jcadmus]

3*12AX7's, 2*12AU7's, and 6*6550's-- if it isn't a dead-on reproduction of the "modern" SVT signal path, it's gotta be pretty darned close.

 

"It's a Harley...compatible. It's a Harley-compatible...basically the same engineering..."

[zeronyne]

Actually, I forget to even address that point JC. If you think 11 identical tubes guarantees will get you "close" to the same sound, I have a gentleman named Robb (not to mention other propellerheads) here that would like to have a word with you.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

of course, in this case it *will* get you almost all the way there, because they copied the schematic and probably the PCBs, too. but they've used the absolute cheapest components possible. it may well be generally reliable and have better manufacturing quality than in the years past, but it's a product of a culture that has no respect for ideas or intellectual property. take that as far as it's worth to you.

 

robb.

[jcadmus]

I was just horsing around.

 

Props to anyone who gets the reference.

[calypsocoral]

zeronyne,

 

Yeah, I know there is more to a signal path than the vacuum tubes involved, but robb basically made the point that I guess I didn't articulate too well.

 

I'll remember you guys' comments about intellectual property the next time you play a Sadowsky, Nash, Alleva-Copollo, Schecter, Charvel, or virtually any other instrument whose maker basically copied Fender!

[picker]

Who wants to haul something as heavy as an SVT around? You can get more power at much less weight, and that appeals to me much more than the "warm sound of tubes" for bass anyway.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

I'll remember you guys' comments about intellectual property the next time you play a Sadowsky, Nash, Alleva-Copollo, Schecter, Charvel, or virtually any other instrument whose maker basically copied Fender!

 

point well taken. personally, i also see little value in most of those instruments, too. hence why i encouraged all to take my comments as far as they have value to you. constructing a fine instrument is an incredible act of skill that i do not wish to minimize. in concept, basically any bass is an infringement on concept if you draw the system boundaries wide enough (e.g. all fender has copyright over is the headstock shape). however, constructing and designing are entirely different things.

 

there is a considerable difference in complexity of design between a guitar and an amplifier. it takes considerably more knowledge to devise and amplifier -- and particularly a good one -- than it does an instrument. and the design is considerably more complex, not just in terms of parts count, but in how it performs dynamically. the conversion of sonics, thermals, and other practical considerations, there is very little comparison between the two.

 

this is not to say, again, that there aren't some notable analogs in the comparison (e.g. both are designs that have been around for more than 40 years). but it is to say that the comparison is not nearly as simple as it appears.

 

and the bottom line for me is that while for this particular piece the "IP infringement" argument doesn't really hold water, behringer as a company lives on IP infringement of designs that are copyright or otherwise IP protected. i think it is penny wise and pound foolish to buy from them. i certainly may save money now, but where will the new ideas come from when everyone only copies?

 

robb.

[jcadmus]

Well that begs the obvious question -- if they're truly infringing IP, why aren't they constantly being sued?

 

Most companies are quite aggressive in protecting their turf in that regard.

[The Bear Jew]

I think the really goofy thing here is that you can often find used SVT heads on Craigslist for about the same price as this thing...

[jeremy c]

Well that begs the obvious question -- if they're truly infringing IP, why aren't they constantly being sued?

 

Most companies are quite aggressive in protecting their turf in that regard.

 

Roland sued them.

the lawsuit was settled confidentially.

I was at the NAMM show mentioned in the article and saw the Behringer display. Like most of the other people I saw looking at the display, I walked away shaking my head in shock.

 

Mackie also sued Behringer.

 

[rumpelstiltskin.]

Well that begs the obvious question -- if they're truly infringing IP, why aren't they constantly being sued?

 

as jeremy has covered, there were two very high profile lawsuits. however, the reason there aren't more is that it is very expensive to do, and most of the MI industry is very small companies who certainly can't afford to do it.

 

more vexing, the result of the mackie case is that you cannot protect circuit board layout (which can be critical in my experience). so these cases have devolved to issues of "market dress" only. and that is why fender can only control the headstock shape. it is iconic; it is a critical part of of their brand recognition. it isn't a critical part of the instrument's function.

 

yes, lawyers destroy everything.

 

robb.

[tnb]

I'll remember you guys' comments about intellectual property the next time you play a Sadowsky, Nash, Alleva-Copollo, Schecter, Charvel, or virtually any other instrument whose maker basically copied Fender!

 

 

I'll address this - at least for Sadowsky, Alleva-Copollo and Nash.

 

The big difference is quality control. Fender (as a company) doesn't seem to understand that concept. You can keep buying and trading and hot-rodding Fender Jazz and P basses or you can just have Roger or Jimmy (or whomever makes those lovely Nash basses) do it right the first time.

 

I've had my Sadowsky for 15 years and have yet to have a structural or electrical problem with it. Or have an engineer or sound guy have to dick around with the EQ to make it sound great. Well worth every cent I paid for it.

 

 

[calypsocoral]

Honestly, guys-- I really wasn't trying to spark controversy here.

 

A friend of mine overseas (a metal guitarist in the UK) bought the Bugera 6262 (basically a Peavey 5150), and has had a good experience with it so far-- no problems as of his first re-tubing. He could be the exception instead of the rule, I don't know.

 

I just checked-out the website and saw that all-tube bass amp, didn't see it mentioned anywhere else, and thought I'd point it out-- Valve-powered bass amps are not exactly flooding the market, and I always thought that competition was a good thing.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

http://www.fortuneart.net/JimWarren/Mermaid_unicorn.jpg

 

robb.

[calypsocoral]

Are you calling me a fairy?!?

 

(Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

 

 

[davio]

d00d that's a mermaid, not a fairy.

[Nicklab]

http://www.fortuneart.net/JimWarren/Mermaid_unicorn.jpg

 

robb.

 

 

Where the #^&* is the Easter Bunny in that pic Robb?

 

We've had some long standing discussions on Behringer and their thievery. They've been trying to reverse engineer a lot of the work of other companies that have been innovating in their respective fields. It became most apparent to a lot of people when Behringer made their clones of Mackie's audio mixers. The Behringer mixers bore a striking resemblance to Mackie's very popular line of mixers. And of course, Mackie sued Behringer. Just google the phrase "Mackie sues Behringer" and you'll be witness to the shenanigans of one of the musical instrument/pro audio industry's most ill-reputed intellectual property infringment cases.

[zeronyne]

I wish everyone could have seen the pedals that Jeremy mentions...I was at that NAMM show. They had a big gridded board with all the pedals attached.

 

http://createdigitalmusic.com/images/2009/09/pedals.jpg

 

They were identical to Boss pedals. The same colors for each type of pedal, exactly the same shape. Even the font was the same except for the leading and kerning. And they were CHEAP. But man, did they sound awful. They also had ripoffs of EH and SansAmp stuff. The Boss stuff caused such an uproar that by the time they were released, they looked completely different.

 

 

[zeronyne]

Here's a nice overview:

 

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/09/06/on-behringers-track-record-value-and-copies/

 

 

[zeronyne]

LOL. Look at this comparison of Apple's website DESIGN and Behringers. Jeez, they'll copy ANYTHING.

 

http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/09/04/behringers-latest-rip-off-job-apple-com/

[rumpelstiltskin.]

http://designyoutrust.com/wp-content/uploads7/Grizzlydesignyoutrust.jpg

 

robb.

[picker]

Behringer copied designs & got sued. They won some, they lost some, and some were a draw, like the decision that said circuit board designs weren't covered by the US patent office. So if they change their cases, no one has any claim of stealing.

 

Frankly, I'm GLAD Behringer came around. Electronic musical equipment is ridiculously overpriced. A pedal with two chips and a printed circuit board selling for $200-$1000 is obscene, especially when the prices are built on a hyped reputation. Do you really think a Klon Centaur is worth $400, or that a Dumble amp is SO much better than any other amp that $100, 000 used is a fair price? I don't.

 

Maybe with a few spoilers like Behringer in the mix, the other companies will figure out that they can't get away with gouging the market for whatever they can convince a credulous public their creations are worth.

[Pernax]

I wish Behringer would sponsor my cover band .

 

-P

[The Bear Jew]

http://designyoutrust.com/wp-content/uploads7/Grizzlydesignyoutrust.jpg

 

robb.

 

I don't know where this picture came from, but I can tell you one thing... it's going to wind up as a flyer for my band's next show.

[rumpelstiltskin.]

rightfully so.

 

robb.

[picker]

http://designyoutrust.com/wp-content/uploads7/Grizzlydesignyoutrust.jpg

 

robb.

 

I don't know where this picture came from, but I can tell you one thing... it's going to wind up as a flyer for my band's next show.

 

Can somebody photo shop a sash on the bear that says "The Bear Jew"? It would be about perfect then...

[davio]

Companies can set whatever pricepoint they think they can get away with for their products. It's just supply and demand. If people will buy enough $100k amps to keep the business running, that's great for them. If nobody buys it, they'll either lower their prices or go out of business. You don't have to buy one. I certainly won't.

 

An honest company could make their own stuff without stealing other people's designs and sell them for dirt cheap if they could still make up for R&D costs. That's not what Behringer does. They steal so they have no R&D costs and then sell products of questionable quality at stupid low prices. Completely different.

[picker]

I call hyping your product to the point that it's several thousand percent overvalued and selling it to people who have more money than sense thievery. It's abuse of supply & demand. They aren't doing anything a lot of companies don't. How freakin' many Tube Screamer clones are out there, or pedals with one or two different resistors or capacitors from another boutique pedal just like it? The only difference is that Behringer is selling them for reasonable prices.