Yamaha CP1 first impressions

[Still Learning]

Dewster:

 

It's one thing to seek clarification from Yamaha on their products, but for a newbie to immediately question the credibility of the highly respected moderator of this forum, with no introduction, is, to put it politely, wrongheaded. You won't gain many friends here with that approach.

 

+1 D-Bon, +1... Very well said.

I want to personally thank dB (and all other long-time forum members) for taking the time to keep us all informed of their impressions of the happenings at the show this year, great reports guys, keep 'em coming!

[dewster]

As you can now clearly see, the Yamaha guys did in fact tell me that it was real FM. Apology accepted.

Apology given :-).

 

But their explanation has me completely baffled as to what SCM could possibly mean. How can it be sampling, modeling, and FM? That's a fairly wide ranging, kitchen sink categorization.

[Nicky]

As someone that was at the show, you do get different answers depending on what rep you ask. For example, a yamaha person told me that the rhodes were a combination sampling/modeling (like the pianos)....but Athan is saying that the rhodes is all modeling. I tend to think the rhodes is modeling because while they are very good, they don't sound authentic to me. So the positive is you don't get the awkward velocity switching from a sampled rhodes, but to me you lose some authenticity because it sounded synthetic to me. Kind of like how the MKS-20 never really sounded like a piano but was very playable. Although the CP1 is closer to a rhodes than a MKS20 is to a piano.

I didn't hear any release sound/sample on the rhodes. The Nord and Scarbee rhodes have this which really adds to the realism.

As an owner of a S70XS, the CP1/CP5 does feel more like a piano....wish the CP5 was a bit lighter. The CP50 did not feel as good to me.

I think I would switch to a CP50 only if I feel comfortable with it's controller functions, as I get the feeling I'm still going to prefer Scarbee in mainstage over the CP5 rhodes.

[KenElevenShadows]

I want to personally thank dB (and all other long-time forum members) for taking the time to keep us all informed of their impressions of the happenings at the show this year, great reports guys, keep 'em coming!

 

I wish everyone had as much appreciation for that as you. Thanks.

[kanker.]

Maybe I should get a CP5 and add a Yamaha F1SR?

I have an FS1r I could be convinced to part with

[burningbusch]

As you can now clearly see, the Yamaha guys did in fact tell me that it was real FM. Apology accepted.

Apology given :-).

 

But their explanation has me completely baffled as to what SCM could possibly mean. How can it be sampling, modeling, and FM? That's a fairly wide ranging, kitchen sink categorization.

 

Dewster,

 

I think it might be helpful to look at it as two different ways of creating the source waveform. Evidently, SCM doesn't REQUIRE samples as the source. In the case of the acoustic pianos and the CP80, they chose to use them but with the Rhodes and Wurly they did not (presumably). Now the FM/DX7 EPs are not that different. The source waveform, the sine waves, are created in software as are envelopes, LFOs, etc. To call this "modeling" of the original FM technology is a little goofy. The original DX was code/math/software and the new implementation is code/math/software. I'm glad they did not just slap an old DX chip into the CP-1. You would have to think FM can be done much better using faster processors and improved digital audio quality available today. Wasn't the original DX 12-bit?

 

Busch.

[allan_evett]

Keyboards are strange because they exist in two very different realms - the technical and the aesthetic. I don't even start to care about the aesthetics until I know the DP is technically up to the task. The vast majority aren't, and that's what I was hoping I might learn more about from Dave's review.

 

 

That's my point, the P155 sound sucks for technical reasons (looping & stretching). I almost don't care what kind of piano they sampled because the compression artifacting is killing my ears.

 

 

 

Dewster -

 

Agreed: Keyboards are indeed, in a way, strange. Those of us involved in the use of electronic instruments that attempt to reproduce the feel and sound of acoustic and electromechanical keyboards are participating in a realm of sonic illusion. You did mention, early on, having 'technical things' destroy your 'suspension of disbelief'; so it seems that you do subscribe - at least somewhat - to the illusion. Specific to piano replication, the science has come a long way; but, ultimately, the characteristics are still a reproduction. What varies for each of us is how that reproduction needs to sound; and that itself varies - depending on the musical circumstances in which we are using the technology. That's one reason why there are so many choices available: several manufacturers offering different keyboards/piano technologies; and within each of those instruments usually a variety of programmed interpretations for different applications. Most of us need the variety offered, since our performing situations are frequently subject to change. Whether it's a different room, a new band, or a client with a specific sound in mind, I'm grateful to have lots of choices within the three bases of piano sounds I use (soon likely to be four).

 

Ultimately though, compared to the real deal, it's all still illusion - especially noticeable when one is playing solo piano. Granted, the "magic" is getting to be amazingly good. But if I was hired to play an solo piano gig, with a well tuned Yamaha grand of 7' or 9' variety provided, and I was also able to also set up either a CP1, or a high quality 88 key controller running Ivory II (using the Yamaha C7 voice), and then switch between instruments for my sets; my hands and ears would still know the difference.

 

If you're an engineer/sound designer, and have the capabilities (and resources) to produce an instrument that sounds just right to you, go for it. Otherwise, I would plan on doing a lot of homework to determine which instrument will work best for you. And that will have to simply include some degree of flexibility and compromise on your part - as all of us have had to do here - in determining which 'piano' sounds 'right'. I would strongly suggest too that you consider rethinking the technical versus aesthetic approach you offered earlier. In this realm of illusion, that can lead you to a dead end. With the degree of complexity involved in reproducing a piano tone, all of the components, not just the sample, play a huge part in creating the image. Try getting out and playing these instruments (both the wide variety available now, and the new ones when they are in-store). Also, this forum has many highly experienced folks who have been working through this musical/technical issue for years. Consider their efforts, experience, and suggestions. As well as the posts in this thread (which I plan to re-read for potential additional insight...), there's plenty of prior digital piano discussion. We're here to help one another out; and that does include some participants from the manufacturing side of things, who - as you can see from this thread - are here to assist you, not deceive you. It aggravated me to read 'lied to' earlier in this thread. Guess what: some info is proprietary, and some of it is very complex and best understood and discussed at the engineering level. I used to often think that 'higher ups' in the industry were usually deceiving me, playing games, etc.. It got old; I got past it, grew up - again.

 

So welcome to the group. We value it as a community that explores, learns together, and communicates in a civil manner. I look forward to hearing what you discover as you search for the best digital piano. That's always been an interesting and lively discussion here.

 

 

[allan_evett]

Maybe I should get a CP5 and add a Yamaha F1SR?

I have an FS1r I could be convinced to part with

 

Oh man... Don't tempt me. I messed with one of those several years back; have regretted that I didn't buy it. Amazing piece o' gear. I've used the PLG-150 FM card in my S90ES for years, but the F1SR goes way beyond.

[burningbusch]

As someone that was at the show, you do get different answers depending on what rep you ask. For example, a yamaha person told me that the rhodes were a combination sampling/modeling (like the pianos)....but Athan is saying that the rhodes is all modeling. I tend to think the rhodes is modeling because while they are very good, they don't sound authentic to me. So the positive is you don't get the awkward velocity switching from a sampled rhodes, but to me you lose some authenticity because it sounded synthetic to me. Kind of like how the MKS-20 never really sounded like a piano but was very playable. Although the CP1 is closer to a rhodes than a MKS20 is to a piano.

I didn't hear any release sound/sample on the rhodes. The Nord and Scarbee rhodes have this which really adds to the realism.

As an owner of a S70XS, the CP1/CP5 does feel more like a piano....wish the CP5 was a bit lighter. The CP50 did not feel as good to me.

I think I would switch to a CP50 only if I feel comfortable with it's controller functions, as I get the feeling I'm still going to prefer Scarbee in mainstage over the CP5 rhodes.

 

Good points Nicky,

 

When I listen to the demos of the Rhodes, some impress me a lot and others less so. At about 2:20 on the CP-1 video at http://www.yamahasynth.com/ it sounds really good to me, Also, the Chick Corea example on the Keyboard mag video is really nice.

 

With five Rhodes models available and all the tweaking possible, I remain optimistic that I'll find one to my liking. All it takes it one. That's what we have with Scarbee.

 

I would give up some authenticity for something that responds dynamically and tonally like a real instrument. IMHO, this is the biggest failure of all hardware to date.

 

Yes the Nords have release samples but they're over the top for me. Scarbee does it right.

 

Busch.

[richwhite9]

The price and weight are for purists and backline companies and home or pro studios.

 

The Kawai wooden keys have their fans as do the heavier clonewheels-- many that now play Nord Electros as a concession to certain realities.

 

The Roland and the Yamaha are a good indication of the trickle down technology of the next decade. God knows GM2, JV sounds with SRX effects, Triple Strike, and AWM are dated and need a killing.

 

My prediction is that the CP1 topped with a Hammond XK3C will be the premier rig for touring pros and I'll never see one in a local bar.

 

Looking forward to hearing some demos over the next month. Frankly, I'm not the target market for those boards in their first generation. Not when there are keybeds like the VR-700 available

 

 

 

[dewster]

I think it might be helpful to look at it as two different ways of creating the source waveform. Evidently, SCM doesn't REQUIRE samples as the source. In the case of the acoustic pianos and the CP80, they chose to use them but with the Rhodes and Wurly they did not (presumably). Now the FM/DX7 EPs are not that different. The source waveform, the sine waves, are created in software as are envelopes, LFOs, etc.

Thanks, that helps clear things up in my mind.

 

To call this "modeling" of the original FM technology is a little goofy.

I think that term is being used in ways that I would not use it, further confusing things.

 

The original DX was code/math/software and the new implementation is code/math/software. I'm glad they did not just slap an old DX chip into the CP-1. You would have to think FM can be done much better using faster processors and improved digital audio quality available today.

With more processing power they can do things like anti-aliasing within the operators, which should generally give a less harsh sound.

 

Wasn't the original DX 12-bit?

I believe the D/A converter was 12 bit. Internally it was logarithmic, to enable the multiplications be performed with additions. An amazing implementation, during the heyday of engineering, IMO.

[dewster]

God knows GM2, JV sounds with SRX effects, Triple Strike, and AWM are dated and need a killing.

Amen brother.

[kanker.]

Maybe I should get a CP5 and add a Yamaha F1SR?

I have an FS1r I could be convinced to part with

 

Oh man... Don't tempt me. I messed with one of those several years back; have regretted that I didn't buy it. Amazing piece o' gear. I've used the PLG-150 FM card in my S90ES for years, but the F1SR goes way beyond.

It might just end up in the KC classifieds in the next couple of days

[drpopper]

You're right, I've been overly gruff. Sincere apologies all around.

 

Now now they just don't know you as well as we do

They don't realize its a crusade not a conversation.

 

[ProfD]

I have an FS1r I could be convinced to part with

 

It might just end up in the KC classifieds in the next couple of days

Dude, you should hold on to and pair that box with the Electro Rack. That whole DX/FM thing is coming back in a major way.

[Nicky]

I would give up some authenticity for something that responds dynamically and tonally like a real instrument. IMHO, this is the biggest failure of all hardware to date

 

+1000

[dewster]

We're here to help one another out; and that does include some participants from the manufacturing side of things, who - as you can see from this thread - are here to assist you, not deceive you. It aggravated me to read 'lied to' earlier in this thread. Guess what: some info is proprietary, and some of it is very complex and best understood and discussed at the engineering level. I used to often think that 'higher ups' in the industry were usually deceiving me, playing games, etc.. It got old; I got past it, grew up - again.

They're probably great family guys, and nothing personal, but I'm always wary of corporate types participating in user forums, as they tend to have their own agendas.

 

So welcome to the group. We value it as a community that explores, learns together, and communicates in a civil manner. I look forward to hearing what you discover as you search for the best digital piano. That's always been an interesting and lively discussion here.

Thanks Allan.

 

I'm actually very easy to please in the DP department. I think the hammer action keys they've been making for maybe a decade now are pretty adequate. I've been entirely happy with PC samplers for 5 or more years, and lately the modelers on the PC sound great to me. All I ask is for is a recordable piano sound in a keyboard or box that I just turn on, and nothing, except for maybe the V-Piano, is there yet.

 

Why is that do you think? Why is the DP field so far behind the technology curve?

[richwhite9]

The sales rep told me....

 

The profession has a deserved reputation. I like to think of sales or factory reps as low paid booth babes and sometimes they have nicer hair (in the 80s for sure). Talk to engineers. There are exceptions but by and large sales reps don't sell products to tech tweaks and don't want to.

[Melodialworks]

 

I'm actually very easy to please in the DP department.

 

 

Seriously? You're saying that with a straight face? Not the "dewster" I know! Heh. Heh.

[dewster]

Seriously? You're saying that with a straight face? Not the "dewster" I know! Heh. Heh.

Crap, I'm slipping. I meant except for the glaringly, scandalously, almost universally piss-poor piano sound on the whole lot of them (when compared to what is available on the PC). Thanks for catching that.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

There has been one, to my knowledge, electronic piano, which was not put into production (two or three were produced) that really could not be told either acousticly or in touch and feel from a concert grand. This was a couple of years ago.

 

Prior to the acquisition by Yamaha, Bosendorfer was working in conjunction with Vienna Instruments on the ultimate portable instrument - it used a Bosie Imperial action with hammers, photoelectronic sensors, a very high power computer, non-midi proprietary electronics (with thousands of discrete intervals instead of 127), a gigantic sampling base that was produced on an Imperial with Bosie's CEUS MIDI action (so there would be no human noise nor variation in amount of pressure for each level of sample. Pricing was never announced, estimates from news sources were that it would be over 50,000 euro. Its intended market was for world-class traveling artists to use as a practice instrument in their rooms between and before concerts.

 

With the Yamaha acquisition, it disappeared (although it is very possible that some of the technology may be diluted and used in Yamaha models, but it really would be nice to see it produced.

[Joe Muscara]

dewster, Melodialworks, drpopper - do you guys know each other? It seems like there's a bit of an inside joke going on here, and you're all relative newbies (though one of you might have been lurking for the past year after registering).

[Melodialworks]

dewster, Melodialworks, drpopper - do you guys know each other? It seems like there's a bit of an inside joke going on here, and you're all relative newbies (though one of you might have been lurking for the past year after registering).

 

Yep. We are regulars at Piano World (Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards). One of us has ordered both the CP1 and the CP5, one of us is seriously considering trading the V-Piano for the CP1, and one of us, well, you've already met THAT one . . .

 

Some pretty interesting discussion going on over there about the CP series, V-Piano etc.

 

[Mogut]

Yep. We are regulars at Piano World (Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards). One of us has ordered both the CP1 and the CP5, one of us is seriously considering trading the V-Piano for the CP1, and one of us, well, you've already met THAT one . . .

 

Some pretty interesting discussion going on over there about the CP series, V-Piano etc.

 

Where did you order from?

[Federico78]

dewster, Melodialworks, drpopper - do you guys know each other? It seems like there's a bit of an inside joke going on here, and you're all relative newbies (though one of you might have been lurking for the past year after registering).

 

Yep. We are regulars at Piano World (Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards). One of us has ordered both the CP1 and the CP5, one of us is seriously considering trading the V-Piano for the CP1, and one of us, well, you've already met THAT one . . .

 

Some pretty interesting discussion going on over there about the CP series, V-Piano etc.

 

 

Great explaination, very funny!

 

The invasion from Piano World... :-D

 

I'm also used to post on that interesting forum, it's full of a lot of fine digital piano analyzers

 

[Skytouch]

I would give up some authenticity for something that responds dynamically and tonally like a real instrument. IMHO, this is the biggest failure of all hardware to date

 

+1000

 

Wholly agree. Nicky, you mentioned the MKS20 as an ultimately playable, if not very realistic piano. Acceptable realism came through in performance, especially in its day when there were not any good multi-sampled options.

 

In my opinion, today's leading multi-sampled pianos may be good enough in most cases, provided care is given to performance technique and setting up the controller to compliment one's own style. For example, my approach with the S90 is to add 20ms of release delay using MidiPipe, which smooths out the rough edges and gives the keybed the illusion of more float and bounce. I also use an RD600 for controlling Rhodes patches because the action and responsiveness feels closest to my old Mark 1.

 

The controller is definitely today's weakest link. With VIs so prevalent, we really need a next-generation controller for piano players that builds on the best that the KX88 and A80 offered about 20 years ago. A great keybed like what the CP1/CP5 promises is worth the investment.

 

Beyond this, embedded CPU power could certainly adapt keybed action to an individual's playing style. This can go way beyond simply providing OMS-like MIDI filters. Think "learn mode", where individual timing and envelope subtleties are quantified, then convolved into the unique groove of, say, Herbie or George.

 

For fun, play the same five-minute piece through a couple different controllers, with MIDI output feeding a histogram logger. The visual comparison is fascinating and quite informative.

 

Regards,

Sky

 

 

[Marc Paley]

Yamaha has done a wonderful thing, The best Yamaha Grands mixed with that real FM from some TX816's except with the cascading and full key polyphony we all craved back in the 80's. Plus you don't have to lug around a huge Rack Module to make it happen.

 

 

[Mogut]

By the way some one asked HOW we do the real FM , there is a sample based tone generator chip in the CP1 , but there is also a hefty CPU that can do some serious math (like FM). That's one of the reasons why the CP1 is more expensive and also why the CP5 can not do real FM.

 

First I'd like to say, great looking/sounding board! I cant wait to get my hands on it. Looks like you guys are gonna hit a home run with this DP. I have a feeling Im going to like this board very much.

 

But about your FM comment, I hope the hefty price tag on cp1 is based on more than just the required cpu horsepower for the FM engine. I couldnt get more than $350 for my DX7II last year. We are seeing a big price jump between the cp1 and cp5 based on the few retailers posting up preorders. $2400 bucks more than the cp5 from what I can see. CP1 is almost double the price?

 

For FM synthesis, speaker simulation, and a couple extra patches?

 

 

[dewster]

$2400 bucks more than the cp5 from what I can see. CP1 is almost double the price?

 

For FM synthesis, amp simulation, and a small qty of patches?

You forgot the glowing logo. I'd pay $1000 for that at least, yes sir.

 

Oh, and removing all those pesky "305 other voices" you would otherwise just be tripping over and stubbing your toe on in the menus - that's worth another $1000 minimum.

 

When is a flagship model not a flagship model? You'll be able to answer that riddle immediately after you purchase the CP1, which is worth the remaining $400 easy.

 

Problem solved. Next?

[dewster]

Yep. We are regulars at Piano World (Digital Pianos - Synths & Keyboards). One of us has ordered both the CP1 and the CP5, one of us is seriously considering trading the V-Piano for the CP1, and one of us, well, you've already met THAT one . . .

Let's see, I didn't order a CP1 or CP5 lately, and I don't own a V-Piano, that means... HEY!

 

Some pretty interesting discussion going on over there about the CP series, V-Piano etc.

Yea, but none of you guys should go over there right now, we're cleaning up a mess someone made.