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Slightly OT: Brian Jones


OldTuna

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Pursuing cold cases may be worthwhile at times, especially if there is DNA evidence or similar that wasn't available back in the day. Not just to catch the bad guys, but to set innocent people free who've been locked up for a long time!

 

Who knows if there is really any new evidence in this case? Time will tell, I guess.

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It's been well known over here that a contractor/builder who was on-site admitted to the girl-friend that he had drowned Brian in the pool. he has since died, I believe.

 

There was a film/docu on the TV about 10 years ago going over all this.

 

I don't know what's new about this for the police to go into it again.

 

G.

 

 

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the World will know Peace": Jimi Hendrix

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=738517&content=music

The Geoff - blame Caevan!!!

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Brian Jones was one of my major influences when growing up. As I got a little more savy, I recognized that Mick and Keith were courted by Andrew, to allow him to take control of the Stones and this pushed Brian out (which may not have been the original intent...) and over the edge when it came to substance abuse. Brian may never have been comfortable or able to come to terms with the Stones as a pop band, but what happened to him was a shame and a waste of a great talent.

 

Bill

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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It's been well known over here that a contractor/builder who was on-site admitted to the girl-friend that he had drowned Brian in the pool. he has since died, I believe.

G.

 

 

That would be Frank Thoroughgood, IIRC This has been widely known for a while, & rumoured since the event.

The problem here is that, even if the matter were concluded so that he were deemed responsible, little would actually change...unless the other people present that night, who were too frightened to speak up at the time (or who, in the case of some of Thoroughgood's laborers, might actually have been involved) might be brought up on charges for hindering police investigation.

Both central figures, Brian & FT, being beyond either help or punishment.

 

d=halfnote
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I read somewhere that in the 60's, some forensic scientist or group of them proved that Napoleon had died of arsenic poisoning. The arsenic was administered to him in small doses in his food, and it built up in his system to a toxic level over a period of time. They found the evidence by performing tests on hair exhumed from his coffin. So it was proved that Napoleon had been murdered.

 

He remained dead...

Always remember that you�re unique. Just like everyone else.

 

 

 

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Brian had already left the Stones some time before he died.

 

So the Stones would in all probability be the same as they are now.

 

G.

 

There is no question that Brian Jones was a troubled individual, from an early age. He seemed to flower as the founder of the Stones, and was really developing into quite a talent.

 

It seemed to me that AL Oldham used the 'divide and conquer' method to wrest control of the Stones from Brian, by flattering and building up Mick and Keith. (Though it might be hard to believe now, at the time Brian was the sex symbol of the band, setting trends in clothing and driving the chicks wild when Mick was still basically a gawky teen;and always showing up with a new and cooler guitar, or exotic instrument from which he had at least been able to pull some cool sounds.) ALO pushed the band into a different direction, Mick and Keith alienated Brian (who, though leading the way in pop areas, still saw the band as a blues band), and Brian retreated into the murky world of drugs to mask his pain.

 

On the bonus interview with Townsend on "the Rock and Roll Circus" DVD, Townsend speaks to the fragile state of Brian at that time. I believe he was dead less than a year later.

 

And I think that is last track as a Stone was 12 string guitar on "You Can't Always Get What You Want".

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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Following up on Bill's comments, which are accurate, I'd add that Brian may've suffered from undiagnosed schizophrenia, something which would've only added to his confusion & resentment.

 

Also, though Pete Townshend only hinted at it by once mentioning that he was writing a song about BJ to be called "A Man That Died Everyday", I've often wondered if "Behind Blue Eyes" was as much about Brian as anyone else.

 

 

d=halfnote
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It seemed to me that AL Oldham used the 'divide and conquer' method to wrest control of the Stones from Brian, by flattering and building up Mick and Keith. (Though it might be hard to believe now, at the time Brian was the sex symbol of the band, setting trends in clothing and driving the chicks wild when Mick was still basically a gawky teen;and always showing up with a new and cooler guitar, or exotic instrument from which he had at least been able to pull some cool sounds.) ALO pushed the band into a different direction, Mick and Keith alienated Brian (who, though leading the way in pop areas, still saw the band as a blues band), and Brian retreated into the murky world of drugs to mask his pain.

 

Keith stealing Brian's girlfriend certainly didn't help the personal dynamics within the band either. Jones was a dedicated music lover, but only a so-so musician. I think as the band became a bigger deal economically & reputation-wise, Brian's musical shortcomings began to cause additional friction within the band & a power struggle ensued for leadership.

 

Scott Fraser

Scott Fraser
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Jones was probably the best all-around musician in the group, and a very creative person. But I think the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none" probably applies quite well, too.

 

As far a Keith stealing Anita Pallenberg, from what I hear, she was tired of Jones getting his sado-masochistic rocks off by whipping her. Ol' Jonesy was a pretty sick puppy, by all accounts...

Always remember that you�re unique. Just like everyone else.

 

 

 

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Scott's comments above about Jones's musical ability run counter to the accepted historical record.

BJ was generally acknowledged to be able to play almost any instrument he tried, with a little practice.

He'd had piano instruction as a child.

Just on the Stones's records he handled guitar, slide, harmonica, keyboards, marimba & percussion.

He also can be heard on a Beatles track playing sax.

 

He & Bill Wyman were the band's hidden strengths in this department. Wyman also played keyboards & even, once, cello on the bands records, as well as writing songs & producing for other bands, since the Stones's shop was closed.

 

Jones also wrote & produced the soundtrack for some German movie (can't recall the title at present) which I'll admit to not having heard, but that's not the sort of thing that indicates poor skills.

 

It definitely is true, however, that whatever his skill level had been, it deteriorated over time due to his personal slide.

 

Getting back to the thread topic, the story goes that Jones, having been ousted from the band, made a deal for a buyout that landed him a fair amount of cash, bought a country-side home (the house of the guy who wrote the Winnie The Pooh books) & was having it remodeled.

The workmen, knowing that he'd lost his situation & was a bit addled, took advantage of him & at some point during a party, got out of control, taunting him & holding him underwater...til things went wrong.

d=halfnote
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Scott's comments above about Jones's musical ability run counter to the accepted historical record.

 

I see this as a difference of opinion rather than a difference regarding known historical facts. He mostly did all right, in the context of a band where everybody was scuffling to some degree, but ultimately had his talent overshadowed the others, as, say, Clapton, Beck & Page each in turn overshadowed the other Yardbirds, it's unlikely Jagger & Richards would have been able to engineer his ouster. He was jettisoned because he was unessential.

 

Scott Fraser

Scott Fraser
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As far a Keith stealing Anita Pallenberg, from what I hear, she was tired of Jones getting his sado-masochistic rocks off by whipping her. Ol' Jonesy was a pretty sick puppy, by all accounts...

 

Whereas Keith, on the other hand, is just a normal, quiet, genteel, sensitive sort of guy that any gal could fall for....

 

Scott Fraser

Scott Fraser
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As far a Keith stealing Anita Pallenberg, from what I hear, she was tired of Jones getting his sado-masochistic rocks off by whipping her. Ol' Jonesy was a pretty sick puppy, by all accounts...

 

Whereas Keith, on the other hand, is just a normal, quiet, genteel, sensitive sort of guy that any gal could fall for....

 

Scott Fraser

 

I think Keef was too stoned on heroin most of the time to wail on her much. They must have had complimentary sicknesses, she stayed with him like 9 years.

Always remember that you�re unique. Just like everyone else.

 

 

 

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Scott, I think we seem to disagree more by interpretation of certain words than by opinion [compare "accepted record" to "accepted facts"]....but that might not be correct.

 

What I'm saying is based on statements by his bandmates who've been oft quoted as to his skills & inventiveness until he got too addled, although as you mention, none of the cats in that band were the sort of players like Clapton, et al.

They also mention that he was a rare mixture of great guy & absolute weasel from the time they met him.

 

I'd say it was the deterioration of his of his former abilites (plus the growing interpersonal tension) rather than a lack of them at all that made him less valuable.

 

There's a famous quote from the latter days of the original Stones. Brian shows up all bleary after missing several days of sessions & asks, "What can I play now ?"

Jagger responds, "That's a good question...what can you play now ?"

d=halfnote
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I'd say it was the deterioration of his of his former abilites, plus the growing interpersonal tension, rather than a lack of them at all that made him less valuable.

 

Probably the best comment made about Jones so far. He's the poster boy for what happens when self-indulgence becomes your master.

Always remember that you�re unique. Just like everyone else.

 

 

 

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"He's the poster boy for what happens when self-indulgence becomes your master."

 

Here is where we diverge. The way I see it, Andrew wanted control of the band. Brian, who started the band and was percived originally as the leader, was fighting him about things like the direction that the band was taking. Andrew flattered Jagger and Richards egos, working a defacto coup for power. Brian, I feel, was not a drug-addict personality per se, as the music was all-important to him from what I have been able to discover. But when the band started going directions that he did not like, and when it became not his band anymore but Andrews (via Jagger/Richards), he used the drugs as an escape.

 

What I think was really cool about the Stones business practices, and what probably could have saved the Beatles, was that the Stones knew to take time off and get away. The Beatles management flogged the product for all it was worth, trying to wrest every cent from it that they could before the pop trend made the band unsellable. Basically ran the guys into the ground until they could not take it (or each other) anymore. Had their management been as savy as the Stones management, we might still have the Beatles to kick around.

"I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot."

 

Steve Martin

 

Show business: we're all here because we're not all there.

 

 

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Seems to me I read a quote in Blender magazine where someone asked Keith Richards if he ever wished Brian Jone was alive today, and Keith (using his diplomatic skills) replied...

 

"Hell no, he was an arsehole"

 

:freak:

Dan

 

"I hate what I've become, trying to escape who I am..."

 

 

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