Michael Jackson covers? Was he a composer?

[SK]

I was about to confess, but ...

'Popcorn'? 'Tiny Dancer'? 'Macarena'??

Now that I think about it, I should just take credit for all of those. Maybe throw in 'NY, NY' and 'Tequila' too, or 'I Write The Songs'.

[meccajay]

Didn't Mike cowrite "We Are The World" with Lionel Richie?

 

I seriously doubt that Lionel would share credit so publicly if he'd done all the work. Especially when that was done at or near the height of his career.

[Cygnus64]

[bIt never ceases to amaze me how little 'musicians' really understand about making music especially on a popular level.

 

 

I know tons of "little" musicians who could mop the floor with "big" musicians.

 

I think one would have to take it on a case-by-case basis. I've never worked with the Spice Girls, but I am taking an educated guess that a few of them lied about their advanced degrees from Juilliard and Berklee. Ashlee Simpson might think a chordal inversion is connected to a spark plug. Her sister might think a Diminished sixth is something that happens when you lose weight from throwing up. I'm guessing that some of the Boy bands didnt get into many arguments over the use of deceptice cadences, or quantizing at 100% instead of humanizing or randomizing.

[meccajay]

There's a nice thread on Gearsluts right now where Robmix is telling MJ stories.. He goes into great detail about MJ's songwriting ability being demonstated.

 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/401331-robmix-tell-us-about-mj.html

[d halfnote]

It may seem overly persistent to repeat this but I think these questions bear consideration, so I take the risk...

 

--------------------------------------------------------

[Originally Posted By: Jazz+

Michael had a narcissistic personality, he was vain, manipulative, had a huge ego, and was very concerned about his public image. I suspect he relied on ghost writers and worked to propagate the myth that he wrote his own material, like many of his heros who actually did write their own songs such as Stevie Wonder and The Beatles.]

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

Your first sentence's not untrue but is only one side of things.

I suspect no one will dissuade you from the opinion expressed in the second, eh?

Again, none of us know.

Given that, why would it be so important to insist he couldn't have done any of this? [*]

 

I find it interesting that a comparable team effort (The Beatles), has not been the subject of such speculation, that I've known.

For instance, did John Lennon compose "I Am The Walrus" or, by dint of his arranging & orchestration, did George Martin?

 

In the realm of modern music production (or honestly even something not heavily "produced"), there are many respected composers who've sometimes drifted afield of what seems to be a particularly stringent----but not improper (I'd like everyone to get proper notice)---definition of composer.

 

(1) Back to the Beatles. George Harrison's "Taxman" has at least one verse by John Lennon & the song's built on a bass/drums construct developed by Paul McCartney, who also plays the lead guitar solo. Who wrote that song?

 

(2)Many of Miles Davis's records are constructed from very brief sketches, sometimes by MD, sometimes by bandmembers like Bill Evans (often called before a session & asked to bring in ideas).

These were then elaborated & improvised on by the ensemble. Who composed that music? Miles Davis ?

When Teo Macero took a 30~60 minute tape of collective improv by Miles's bands (which was more often than not the case)& edited it into a semi-coherent piece of music, who composed that? Davis, the ensemble or Macero?

 

 

(3) Session musicians regularly develop & contribute ideas to records under an idea called "work for hire". These often are the hooks of the record but they get no credit as composer.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those cited above (& the list could easily be expanded) are some generally well-regarded artists who frequently took credit for work created in similar ways that are being discussed here.

Am I somehow missing the point?

 

There's also the issue of trying to debate or convince someone who's mind may be preset. [*]

 

 

 

 

 

[80skeys]

Human Nature

 

Written by Steve Porcaro of Toto

[MikeT156]

by d:

 

(1) Back to the Beatles. George Harrison's "Taxman" has at least one verse by John Lennon & the song's built on a bass/drums construct developed by Paul McCartney, who also plays the lead guitar solo. Who wrote that song?

 

I believe "Taxman" was the song that George asked John to "help" him with, and John complained later that he "didn't get credit". So he was reluctant to "help" George anymore.

 

George Harrison contributed most of the lead guitar parts to Both Lennon and McCartney's songs, but he wasn't given credit for arrangement or solos because that is not considered part of actually writing the song. Many songs had input from all the members of any given band, but typically its the person that comes up with the idea that gets the credit.

 

Mike T.

[Geoff Grace]

There's a nice thread on Gearsluts right now where Robmix is telling MJ stories.. He goes into great detail about MJ's songwriting ability being demonstated.

 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/401331-robmix-tell-us-about-mj.html

Thanks, meccajay.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[d halfnote]

George Harrison contributed most of the lead guitar parts to Both Lennon and McCartney's songs, but he wasn't given credit for arrangement or solos because that is not considered part of actually writing the song. Many songs had input from all the members of any given band, but typically its the person that comes up with the idea that gets the credit.

 

Mike T.

 

Yes.

Many of the instrumental parts of Beatles records, including what the band members played, were created by someone else.

McCartney, especially, but also Lennon & even George Martin would dictate drum parts or guitar solos.

Martin's work on their songs was more hands-on in the early days but he definitely reworked much of their material to an extent many don't realize. Lennon's "Walrus" may be the most extreme example; the parts Martin created for that song completely transformed it.

Similarly the sound of the Beatles records was largely the work of Martin & engineers such as Geoff Emerick, who says in his history of working with them he'd often dial in the tone on their guitar amps rather than use board EQ.

Does anyone suggest that that is the source of their success?

The citations about Davis's work may be even more relevant.

 

I'm raising the issue that much of what we hear is not the creation, solely, of the credited writer & that to assail MJ as a non-writer or composer based on his not creating everything on his records is a bit strict unless we plan to put that stricture on others, too.

 

 

[cnegrad]

I'm curious; does this trend exist in other businesses or artforms where a person will attempt to claim full or partial credit for a creation that they may not necessarily be deserving of?

[DanL]

There's a nice thread on Gearsluts right now where Robmix is telling MJ stories.. He goes into great detail about MJ's songwriting ability being demonstated.

 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/401331-robmix-tell-us-about-mj.html

 

Jazz+ should read this thread. It might help him gain a little respect for MJ's abilities as a songwriter. Probably not though...

[zephonic]

There's a nice thread on Gearsluts right now where Robmix is telling MJ stories.. He goes into great detail about MJ's songwriting ability being demonstated.

 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/401331-robmix-tell-us-about-mj.html

Thanks, meccajay.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

 

+1

 

[Cygnus64]

[i'm raising the issue that much of what we hear is not the creation, solely, of the credited writer & that to assail MJ as a non-writer or composer based on his not creating everything on his records is a bit strict unless we plan to put that stricture on others, too.

 

 

MJ was plenty talented in many areas. I find it more interesting in learning what he did than anything else. Even if he didnt write a note, it doesnt take anything from his considerable talents. The gearslutz post was interesting and informative.

 

Some guys do one thing and do it well, like Pavarotti. Others like McCartney have their hands in just about everything. Both possess plenty of talent.

 

Unfortunately, in todays pop music world there is a third group. LIkewise, there are people out there who think nothing of putting their name on something for financial gain:

 

I've played with Paul Anka a few times. In concert, he tells the story of the "Tonight Show" theme, which he wrote. According to him, he got a call one nite from Johnny who said "I like it. Oh, put my name on it too!" He then goes on to insinuate how much money that phone call cost him, since Johnny received half of the writing money. I think he said it was like 90 grand a year for all those years.

[d halfnote]

I'm curious; does this trend exist in other businesses or artforms where a person will attempt to claim full or partial credit for a creation that they may not necessarily be deserving of?

I know it does in some; maybe in all.

 

 

 

Jazz+ should read this thread. It might help him gain a little respect for MJ's abilities as a songwriter. Probably not though...

Since he initiated it, let's hope he's reading it but I suspect his opinion, like many expressed regarding MJ, is perhaps unlikely to change.

This is so much a matter of partial (though hardly impartial) speculation but, once entrenched, opinions are hard to sway.

[zephonic]

http://www.divshare.com/download/7785978-47d

 

Interview with Q about Thriller, if you're interested.

 

[Joe Muscara]

There's a nice thread on Gearsluts right now where Robmix is telling MJ stories.. He goes into great detail about MJ's songwriting ability being demonstated.

 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/401331-robmix-tell-us-about-mj.html

Thanks, meccajay.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

 

+1

+1

 

Damn, those are some stories.

[Eric Iverson]

"I'm curious; does this trend exist in other businesses or artforms where a person will attempt to claim full or partial credit for a creation that they may not necessarily be deserving of?" - quote from cnegrad

 

I doubt if it happens too often with painters and sculptors, (correct me if I'm wrong!), but writers sometimes steal one another's work and/or fail to give due credit to ghost writers. (Of course, if the latter get paid enough, they probably don't complain TOO much!) Also, writers accuse one another of stealing other people's "conceptions", which can be hard to prove!

 

Inventors steal from one another, largely because it's often a question of who gets there first to get the patent. There have been a number of legendary court cases.

 

Human nature being what it is, there are always PLENTY of people who want all of the credit and none of the blame, especially there is fame and fortune involved.

 

 

[MikeT156]

By Eric Iverson:

 

Human nature being what it is, there are always PLENTY of people who want all of the credit and none of the blame, especially there is fame and fortune involved.

 

Theft of ideas is everywhere. You will see this even among the peons in offices. Someone comes up with an idea and someone else beats a path to the boss to tell him/her what a brillant idea they just came up with. If this great idea can benefit someone, even in a small way, it gets lifted.

 

 

Mike T.

[d halfnote]

As a final answer to the title question, I think, "Yes."

[d halfnote]

Guess, Jazz = is "non-plussed"