OT: Over At the Key(bored) Forum

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by ChristopherKemp: [b] [quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]I think part of the resistance of many musicians to learn to read is the FEAR that the logical perception, of music WILL somehow take away from the intuitive reprensentation, of music. This may not be an ungrounded fear.[/b][/quote]I think there's some truth to that. One of the hardest things to do after going through formal training is to be able to NOT do what is "correct".[/b][/quote]That depends on how much of a tight-ass you are.

[Nawledge]

sylver got my point, I just thought that the original poster was blowing smoke out his rear chiminey, and to the original poster it's nothing personal I just disagree. I'd love to be able to write music in the vain of not even needing to carry around a laptop, pda, or taperecorder and just pull out a pen and pad everytime I get an idea. I think it does me specificly for my needs and purposes a great disservice to not know how to do so because I could make great use of the skill of 'writing musical notation' everyday in my life so I'm soon to be on that road to learn fluently, but unlike Mr. Horne I don't think it makes you a musician or what you create music. I also don't think djs are not musicians, there are quite a few musical geniuses who use only turntables and nothing else, and make incredible music that you could not make using anything but turntables and I'm not talking about blending two records, take a listen to 'kid koala' or 'Dj Qbert' turntablism is an artform to be reckoned with. another reason why I'd love to learn is because I can't play the music I've already created to my liking and being able to do so would be a great boon to my process and help me save on harddrive space, I know my own style intimately now and I'm not worried about being confused by structure but I can understand feeling that way cause I use to and finding your own self with in the musical realm can be a fragile process, I would go so far as to say that it might be better to learn after you've discovered yourself, that's the one thing that those who learn first before they discover themselves will never know.

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]Originally posted by G. Ratte': [b]Yeah, I don't get this attitude. So busting your ass to learn a bunch of Chopin, that might be fun and swell and be good chops practice, but what does it have to do with being a musician? Maybe you'd rather spend the time and effort playing your own tunes, which you've never notated? What does playing other peoples' stuff have to do with anything? Maybe being able to save your own things as MIDI files will suffice just fine, or audio recordings. If you're planning on your big career move being to sell sheet music of your mega-awesome hitz, good luck. I don't see the practical necessity, unless you wanna be a session cat or play in a symphony. Anyways. Learning notation is great, but I think it has its own hobby value, and isn't necessary for "being a musician."[/b][/quote]This post is a perfect example of how a lack of study can make someone less capable of talking intelligently about it. For instance, I almost never read other people's 'stuff' anymore but I read and write music everyday...mostly my own. I think Dave Horne and others were pretty clear when they said it's not just about knowing how to read, it's about knowing the language. Reading and Writing help you to learn more than just a very limited (by your own vision) version of the language of music. You don't want to take the time out to study? Fine, I have no problem with that and I know MANY great musicians who didn't need to study music to be great at it. I don't understand how someone who hasn't learned reading/writing notation can argue that they're better off because of that. No one has to learn to read, write, study intervals or the circle of 5ths, etc. in order to make music. And the music isn't any better by a studied musician than one who hasn't. BUT...I firmly believe the more studied musician [b]understands[/b] more about the music that has been created which often helps him/her to improve. But really, this shouldn't be so heated a discussion...seems pretty clear to me that reading/writing music is a skill...don't have/don't want the skill? no big deal. Better without it? bullshit :)

[the stranger]

"You can also learn to speak the English language without reading. Of course you wouldn't be able to speak as well as the others that do read." -shniggens Uh...ok...fine...I'm lazy, alright?! :D Dan's comments about being a tightass further convinced me that my psuedo theory crap was a front for my refusal to dedicate my time to learn to verbalize something I already know. Wewus, you better come off that front bullshit. You know your just lazy. :D

[Dan South]

Steve - You've voiced my position perfectly. stranger - ;)

[KHAN]

[quote]Originally posted by G. Ratte': [b]What does playing other peoples' stuff have to do with anything? [/b][/quote]Would you suggest someone who wanted to become a writer not read the classics? [b]EX:[/b] [b]"[i]Don't bother with all that old Hemingway and other junk, you want to be a writer, not a reader. Right"???[/i][/b] WRONG. :wave: You don't have to learn your craft by [i]"playing other peoples' stuff"[/i], but your statement above is just as short sighted as the people who say the only way to be good is to learn theory. I took 6 years of clarinet lessons (5th through 10th grade), before learning guitar by ear. I practiced my scales, and did competition peices (mostly Mozart) . This made [i][b]"ME"[/b][/i] a much better guitarist. Your milage may vary.

[Slowly]

The majority of guys in my male chorus have no musical training, there fore it takes us about four rehersals to learn a song instead of the usual one. If the director says sing an F or G or whatever, I remember the instrument I learned in high school and I'm there. The others aren't. Kcbass

[G. Ratte]

Eh, I don't even know what we're arguing about. I was talking the practical necessity of reading music notation. Somebody was unhappy I said "stuff" instead of "pieces" or whatever big-M Musicians like you to call their tunes. Bleh to that. I can read, albeit slowly, and have read maybe a dozen theory and orchestration books. I got plenty. Which is neat and really interesting, but I'm doing pop music which is all about meandering around 'til you hit the V-I money shot and go home for the day. la la la. Mad respect to you symphony guys, but that's not the world I was talking about.

[Steve LeBlanc]

[quote]Somebody was unhappy I said "stuff" instead of "pieces" or whatever big-M Musicians like you to call their tunes. Bleh to that.[/quote]nah, I just put 'stuff' in quotations for the hell of it, I'm just anal that way. ;) Anyway, I think you missed my point...doesn't matter, no argument, just adding my thoughts to the discussion...I think studying music is a good thing, that's all, if studying pop trends is your thing and you'd rather not worry about notes on a page, etc, that's cool too. Just my two cents, agree or don't or whatever. :)

[BP3]

Quote instead of edit, oops. :o :o

[G. Ratte]

[quote] Would you suggest someone who wanted to be come a writer not read the classics? EX: "Don't bother with all that old Hemingway and other junk, you want to be a writer, not a reader. Right"??? WRONG. You don't have to learn your craft by "playing other peoples' stuff", but your statement above is just as short sighted as the people who say the only way to be good is to learn theory. [/quote]That's a good point. It would be helpful if I were to learn say, the whole Beatles catalog arranged for keys, guitar, and kazoo (kazoo tab, anyone?). The most helpful thing about it though would be some sort of analysis explaining what's going on in the song that I could apply to my own stuff. There are tons of analysis books on classical stuff, but not much for pop. Most of the "songwriting" books are about how to write crappy, cliche'd lyrics for sappy love songs, wee.

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b] [quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b]I don't know anyone who can navigate unknown areas by "feel".[/b][/quote]Lewis and Clark didn't have any maps, yet they covered a lot of territory. But they paid the price of encountering the unknown on several occasions. I find my way around without maps all the time, especially when I'm exploring an area for the first time. My "dead ends" lead me to new places. But if I have to get somewhere efficiently (i.e. on time), I need a map. Two approaches. Each has its own merits and its own weaknesses. Neither detracts from the other, but being able to do both makes you a better navigator/musician/whatever.[/b][/quote]You stated the obvious, but missed the point, Dan. You just proved my point that your analogy is flawed. I haven't discovered the unknown, as L & C did, because I have hundreds, no thousands of maps in the music I've heard, learned to sing and play on my guitar over the years. Do I think reading music is a worthwhile endeavor and tool? Absolutely. Do I think reading music makes one inherently more musically educated than learning music by other methods? Absolutely not! There's no fear involved, either. (To those who've put that word into the conversation.) How arrogant of those who are proponents that everyone in music should learn to read standard notation to suggest that others are afraid to learn it? How silly would it be for me to say you learned to read music because you were afraid to use other methods to learn music? :rolleyes: When you wonder why I and others get huffy about the subject it's because of that arrogant attitude taken by many who believe reading standard notation is necessary to be a great musician.

[whitefang]

1. Comparing writing music to writing books and saying shit like "You want to be a writer, NOT a reader" is a run off the road. To amplify, it's said that to be a good writer, you should write what you know. Which kinda makes me wonder what Stephen King's private life is like! 2. There is nothing wrong with being able to read music. I often wish I could. But there's really nothing too seriously WRONG with NOT being able to read music. In some cases, those who are pompous about being able to, have a tendancy to "intellecualize" their approach to music. This might be OK for symphonic pieces, but it fucks the blues up royal. Many of Leonard Bernstein's works supposedly rooted in jazz influences suffer from his intellectual approach to jazz as music, and come off terribly cold compared to orchestral pieces by Ellington. But, Ellington had a firsthand experience in the realm of jazz, while Bernstein went to it from a musicologist's direction. 3. I don't know how often THIS happens; My ex wife had a friend(co-worker)who said she played the guitar. I pulled out my two axes and invited her to jam. She balked, and finally admitted that she couldn't play WITHOUT any music to read from! :confused: Playing by "ear" was completely impossible for her. 4. I know a guy who has studied guitar since he was 10, could read music, and can play circles around many I hear on recordings. I know another guy who has studied guitar since 12, can also read music, and can't play for SHIT! So apparently, being able to read music is NOT any guarantee to musical superiority. But, I'm willing to bet the second guy can TALK a good game! Whitefang

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b] [quote]Originally posted by fantasticsound: [b]I don't know anyone who can navigate unknown areas by "feel".[/b][/quote]Lewis and Clark didn't have any maps, yet they covered a lot of territory. But they paid the price of encountering the unknown on several occasions. I find my way around without maps all the time, especially when I'm exploring an area for the first time. My "dead ends" lead me to new places. But if I have to get somewhere efficiently (i.e. on time), I need a map. Two approaches. Each has its own merits and its own weaknesses. Neither detracts from the other, but being able to do both makes you a better navigator/musician/whatever.[/b][/quote]You stated the obvious, but missed the point, Dan. You just proved my point that your analogy is flawed. I haven't discovered the unknown, as L & C did, because I have hundreds, no thousands of maps in the music I've heard, learned to sing and play on my guitar over the years. Do I think reading music is a worthwhile endeavor and tool? Absolutely. Do I think reading music makes one inherently more musically educated than learning music by other methods? Absolutely not! There's no fear involved, either. (To those who've put that word into the conversation.) How arrogant of those who are proponents that everyone in music should learn to read standard notation to suggest that others are afraid to learn it? How silly would it be for me to say you learned to read music because you were afraid to use other methods to learn music? :rolleyes: When you wonder why I and others get huffy about the subject it's because of that arrogant attitude taken by many who believe reading standard notation is necessary to be a great musician.[/b][/quote]Neil, I think that my analogy was right on the money. As a photographer, I spend time in wilderness areas. Sometimes I used trail maps if I want to get to a specific place by a specific time. Sometimes I wander around, watch the sky, consult a compass, and follow my instincts until I find something interesting. Sometimes I combine the two methodologies. Similarly, I'll use one or both approaches to music depending on my objective. Sometimes reading is a must for a rehearsal, a gig, or for getting to know a piece in a reading-oriented genre. Sometimes playing by ear is a must (virtually all of my band experience). On occasion I have learned parts by ear and transcribed them for horn players who had limited ear training skills. Sometimes writing notes on a staff helps me with composition. Sometimes jamming on in instrument is better. If I have an idea in my head, I can quickly jot it down using standard notation, and I don't have to worry about forgetting it. The point is that the more tools that you have, the more you can do. If I only read or only played by ear, I could only do a fraction of the things that I can do by employing both skills.

[alcohol]

There's plenty of work by Bernstein that I think is of genius quality. Perhaps it wouldn't be understood without some of the insight that reading music brings. Art and music isn't really universal. There's some understanding of style that is esoteric. For example, if you can read music and can play the piano,I don't think that just hearing the sound of the tones you make can give you a full insight into the workings of a Bach Fugue. Without understanding the art of counterpoint and the breakthrough of the chromaticism that equal temperament tuning allowed, you would be unable to fully appreciate the intelligence of design that goes into the writing of the fugue, and therefore the understanding needed to give a fulsome interpretation would be missing. So while reading music isn't a necessary skill to be a great musician, it is necessary for the full appreciation of some styles of music and necessary for a fulsome interpretation of some styles of music

[Super 8]

I know what I need to know. When I need to know more, I'll learn more. I never could get the hang on reading. It's not something that is very often asked of me. But it's not really the way I do things. I had a drum teacher on and off for a couple of years who was trying to teach me to read. The problem was, once I had played the piece through once or twice I was no longer reading it... I was playing from memory. It's just not where I'm coming from. I'd much rather hear it than see it. Now, I have taken a beginning theory class, which I enjoyed. I liked learning that stuff -and I have found it beneficial. But for the most part, it really only put names with faces. In other words, I knew what the sounds were, I just never knew what they were called. Ultimately, I think it comes down to whether you got it or you don't got it... By "it" I mean the gift of music. If you got it, then theory and reading can be beneficial. Although it may not be necessary for you depending on where music is taking you. BB King knows all he needs to know. If you don't got it, then you can learn all of the theory and reading, and it will just mean that the crap you are putting out will be technically correct. What good does it do you to learn the language if you can't understand the culture?

[Curve Dominant]

[quote]posted by Dave Horne on the Keybored forum: [b]There is a new thread here about DJs, those wonderful musical parasites[/b][/quote]This was all I needed to read to confirm my experiences with the close-minded amatuer-hour attitudes prevelant on the Kindergarten Corner. If you notice, those clowns post more on threads about spectator sports than on all the music-related threads combined on that waste of space. Key(bored) forum, indeed. If any of those silly kids had a fraction of the talent that my average local Philly-area DJs have, they'd have MUCH better things to do than to lurk on that graveyard. Don't sweat the small stuff, Nawledge, my good brother. That is some VERY small stuff, like playing handball against the curb...I know you seen those sorry-assed brothers on the corner, going nowhere. Don't even waste the sweat from your balls on those clowns.

[Tusker]

[i]Us, and them And after all we're only ordinary men Me, and you God only knows it's not what we would choose to do Black, and blue And who knows which is which and who is who Up and Down And in the end it's only round and round and round[/i] :wave:

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by Curve Dominant: [b] Don't even waste the sweat from your balls on those clowns.[/b][/quote]Yeah, Nawladge! Ball-sweat is NOT to be wasted!

[Geoff Grace]

[quote]Originally posted by Curve Dominant: [quote]posted by Dave Horne on the Keybored forum: [b]There is a new thread here about DJs, those wonderful musical parasites[/b][/quote]This was all I needed to read to confirm my experiences with the close-minded amatuer-hour attitudes prevelant on the Kindergarten Corner.[/quote][b]Eric[/b], I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're mostly trying to comfort [b]Nawledge[/b]. However, do you realize that you just used someone slamming a whole group of people as a reason to slam a whole group of people? I'm a keyboard player too. Should I take your comments personally? For what it's worth, [b]Dave Horne[/b] is being taken to task for his opinions from most forum members in the Keyboard Corner; but I suppose that fact only gets in the way of dismissing us all. Eric, there are truly a lot of things I like about you - I've often seen you be friendly and helpful. I just wish you weren't sometimes so quick to attack people, that's all. Best, Geoff

[Tusker]

[quote]Originally posted by Nawledge: [b]why is it that some people think that discriminating is some kind of path that leads to enlightenment. [/b][/quote]Nawledge, On the other thread, I posted that I didn't think that people who read are better musicians than those who don't. However, most people can become better musicians faster by using all the tools at their disposal (including reading). Do you think we can discriminate between approaches to music, without discriminating between people? I was born in Sri Lanka, where the indigenous music had an oral tradition. You didn't necessarily score things. However given the pervasiveness of western music, I would advise any musician (in their formative years) to consider getting as much knowledge of all kinds as possible. This includes the ability to score music. I've personally found that while scoring does not cover every facet (some aspects of feel and timbre for example) of music, it is a remarkably sound paradigm for understanding rhythm, harmony and melody quickly. Additionally, the fact that some traditions rely on it (e.g. classical music, jazz) means that you have an additional channel of communication that opens up. While I don't think Stevie Wonder was ever hindered by an inability to score, I don't doubt that Quincy Jones' success was enhanced by his ability to score things quickly and artistically. If discriminating between approaches to a body of knowledge is declared politically incorrect, then do we not at some point declare knowledge = ignorance? Is a value system that gives Wynton Marsalis credit for all his skills necessarily evil? We could deconstruct Mr. Marsalis' achievements by calling them "just chops" "just technique" etc. But is that the right thing to do? How can we build knowledge if we destructively deconstruct it? Jerry

[GZsound]

O.K. I'm confused. I can sight read on my sax with the best of them, played many years in stage bands, jazz bands, pep bands, the Navy band, etc. However, in the mid eighties I started playing keyboards and I cannot sight read at all on keys. Been playing, writting and recording by ear for all these years. So am I a real musician or a complete failure or what?

[Gulliver]

[quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b]O.K. I'm confused. I can sight read on my sax with the best of them, played many years in stage bands, jazz bands, pep bands, the Navy band, etc. However, in the mid eighties I started playing keyboards and I cannot sight read at all on keys. Been playing, writting and recording by ear for all these years. So am I a real musician or a complete failure or what?[/b][/quote]You are a curious paradox, GZsound. :D

[alcohol]

There's definitely something for finger dexterity, and I also think that we group our knowledge. I can sight read very difficult piano music and I can improvise bebop on the piano. I've been playing guitar for last 7 years. I can sight read simple melodies and I can improvise in a blues style. I cannot improvise in a bebop style on the guitar except in a crude way. Could be learning at a younger age is important. I think that shedding has a lot to do with one's abilities. Maybe executing the reading isn't as important as understanding the concepts. If you can't read to some minimal extent, I think you're necessarily cutting off some understanding of how music works. Deinitely playing an instrument helps understanding how to write for one. I've gotten charts from arrangers with piano parts written out and felt that a real piano player would never write some charts like the ones I got.

[Wewus432]

[quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b]O.K. I'm confused. I can sight read on my sax with the best of them, played many years in stage bands, jazz bands, pep bands, the Navy band, etc. However, in the mid eighties I started playing keyboards and I cannot sight read at all on keys. Been playing, writting and recording by ear for all these years. So am I a real musician or a complete failure or what?[/b][/quote]That ain't no big mystery. Reading sax is basically one note at a time, reading keyboard music is multiple notes on two different staffs.

[Wewus432]

I do have minimal reading skills. I've gotten into it, and out of it many times, and I have some good books on the subject. My problem is I can play by ear so well that reading becomes cumbersome, and a pain in the ass. Like someone on this thread said, part of it is just being lazy, but.... It's also the same feeling I get when I start getting into engineering, the logical process is taking me away from the music. As the great Keith(Richards) once said-"Music is a feeling"! The main advantage I see in being able to read music is it gives you a common language to use when talking to other musicians, and that's why I will eventually develop the ability to read.... more.

[Ouizel]

There seem to be two camps here. One that thinks that reading is good, and one that thinks that it's a sin to learn to read. I just cannot fathom why a musician (one with musical ability) would shun reading if it weren't for fear. Why else? There has to be a reason that you don't want to learn to read music. Help me out, here. I'm not being smug, I'm genuinely curious. It's not that hard to aquire rudimentary reading skills. So then, non-readers, why not? If not fear of losing something, then what? And if it is fear of losing something, what is it?

[Wewus432]

Part of the problem too, is it's such an imperfect language. All the transposing instruments, and different ways of writing the same thing put people off. THERE ARE some improvements that could be made in the system.

[Jedi]

See that's the thing, Quizel, I don't get that from this thread. I get that damn near everyone here thinks that reading is a useful tool, just some place more importance on it than others. In most of the "non-readers" post you see lines like, "I will learn more,"or "I eventually have it on my things to do." Most if not all don't want to be limited in any way. The thing is and I'm sure we're all aware, there are soooooooooo many things to do to become a musician/artist/writer that some don't or haven't seen the benefit in sight reading as opposed to other methods of becoming better at what THEY want to do. The reason I emphasize the "THEY want to do" is because we all know that music is a very personal/subjective process. We must agree that we all have our own process and things that enhance one person's abilities might not enhance another's. In saying all this, I love studying music theory and it's been quite helpful for my process. Music theory has always been more important for ME than sight reading. Or atleast I've experienced the benefits of learning theory over the minimal sight reading skills I have. I am learning to sight read more since I'm spending much more time playing/studying the piano. It's great and a few years down the road I plan to be somewhat proficient at it, but for my process there are some other things that need my immediate attention. My father, who is degreed in music and can sight read like reading a book, has one of the best attitudes towards this debate. He always goes on about the insecurities of artists/musicians. He would say something like "readers are insecure if they don't play by ear, those that play by ear are insecure if they can't read, but when it comes to all the great musicians I've seen, one thing really stands out, THEY ALL PLAYED THEIR INSTRUMENT A LOT." I guess the guy is really starting to make sense :D .

[Ouizel]

[quote]Originally posted by Jedi: [b] but when it comes to all the great musicians I've seen, one thing really stands out, THEY ALL PLAYED THEIR INSTRUMENT A LOT." I guess the guy is really starting to make sense :D .[/b][/quote]Ok, there's something I can get behind. I read, but I don't sight read well. I'm working on it. I play mostly by ear, and the reading skills that I have have helped me tremendously, and will help me in the forseeable future, as well. And I don't think that reading has compromised my improvisational technique.