newguy_dup1 Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hi All- I'm thinking of possibly changing keyboards, from a Motif 8 Classic to either an ES/SX or an S90ES (or S90XS if it's out by the time I buy!). Just for background: I use my Motif 8 Classic for home recording (USB MIDI to Cubase), and for playing live. I havent sampled, and of course since I have Cubase I dont use its sequencer. I havent used plug in boards (yet), and I do have some voice libraries loaded (DCPs Bees Knees). I build performances that split the keyboard into different regions, but I dont really foresee using it to control other keyboards. I really love it, Ive had it since it came out in 2001. Lately, though, Ive been thinking about the things the Motif ES/XS has that the Motif Classic doesnt - more voices get to keep their effects in a performance, some better features in terms of things like switching voices seamlessly while playing live, etc. What Id be grateful for any advice on is whether, since I dont use the onboard sequencer, and I don't sample, which Yamaha product will: - get me an "upgrade" along the lines I mentioned (effects coming with voices into Performances, increased polyphony, etc.), - not lose me any features on the Motif Classic I use now, and - not cause me to pay for features I don't use (sequencing and sampling)? Id just as soon stick with a Yamaha product - it took me years to figure out how to think like a Motif manual writer, and Id just as soon not waste that hard-earned knowledge! The Motifator.com board is a little slow lately - thanks in advance to all the players here for any advice and perspective! Alexis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 I'd suggest waiting until the new S-XS models come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Good advice Eric. The fly in the ointment with many synths is the ability to switch from one sound to another without an interruption in the sound. You could do it with the Motif ES in "Song" mode, and an upgrade to the Motif XS line allowed you to do it in "Song" mode. But if you don't need sequencing and sampling, you don't need a Motif. I don't know if the S90ES allows you to switch sounds without interruption. However, brother Eric would know, he's owned EVERYTHING! Cheers, Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanL Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 S90ES doesn't give you uninteruupted sound changes in master mode. I'm not sure about song mode as I don't use that live. Either way newguy, you are better off waiting for the XS to come out. At the very least, the prices on the ES might come down. Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1 Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6 www.bksband.com www.echoesrocks.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogut Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 If your not going to use the sequencer and sampler newguy, its a no-brainer. But now that youve had the motif, im sure theres some feature you'll miss if you downgrade -Greg Motif XS8, MOXF8, Hammond XK1c, Vent Rhodes Mark II 88 suitcase, Yamaha P255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverDragonSoun Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I'd suggest waiting until the new S-XS models come out. Agreed. No Matter what you wind up with, you should at the very least wait until the S90XS comes out. Begin the day with a friendly voice A companion, unobtrusive - Rush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 On the S90ES, you can put sounds into a multi-seq play ... switching between them without interruption. I believe this is identical to the Song mode in the Motif ES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newguy_dup1 Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Thank you for the advice, guys! I'm not going to spend the big bucks for a while at least, just trying to get the knowledge base together to help me make a smart purchase ... your posts have been hugely helpful! If your not going to use the sequencer and sampler newguy, its a no-brainer. But now that youve had the motif, im sure theres some feature you'll miss if you downgrade Yes, this is what I'm wondering about, thanks! Which features are you thinking I might I miss (not including the sampler and sequencer) if I downgrade to the S90ES instead of to the MotifES (or, the S90XS instead of the MotifXS)? I haven't been able to actually find a list of any differences between the S90 and Motif series except for the sampler and sequencer, though I have a feeling there are some ... Thanks! Alexis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 The major difference is that the Motif series (Es and XS)has a sampler and sequencer, which you don't need! I'm not sure what Moqut is referring too. Maybe he can clue us in. Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregH Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Plus, the S90ES has a much improved piano (in my opinion), half pedaling and string resonance effects, when compared with the Motif ES. It has fewer factory preset voices than the Motif ES, but since all of the ES waveforms are still there, you can load any missing ES voice that you might require onto the S90ES. When comparing any of the ES-series instruments to the Motif Classic series instruments, you'll see that some of the waveforms from the Classic series didn't make it to the ES series. For most folks, this didn't really make much of a difference...except to those who were fond of the Classic pianos. Again, the S90ES piano trumps either the ES or Classic pianos (in my opinion). It'll be interesting to see what the S90XS brings to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newguy_dup1 Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Thank you, GregH and others! GregH, you wrote:It has fewer factory preset voices than the Motif ES, but since all of the ES waveforms are still there, you can load any missing ES voice that you might require onto the S90ES. Does that mean that if I wanted a Motif Classic factory preset voice that was not in the S90ES, I would need to build it from elements? I haven't gotten to that level of programming yet ... is that sort of process a trial and error thing, or does Yamaha list somewhere what elements make up each voice, and what effects are then applied to make the final sound? That might be a deal killer to me (in terms of the S90ES or XS) if there were a lot of voices missing in the ES, and they required a lot of programming time. You also wrote GregH (and thank you for doing so!):When comparing any of the ES-series instruments to the Motif Classic series instruments, you'll see that some of the waveforms from the Classic series didn't make it to the ES series. For most folks, this didn't really make much of a difference...except to those who were fond of the Classic pianos. Again, the S90ES piano trumps either the ES or Classic pianos (in my opinion). I'm a piano player at heart, and I love a great piano sound. Sad to know that some of these sounds were lopped off when moving from the Classic series. And nice to know that the S90ES piano trumps the Motif ES and Motif Classic pianos (not Motif SX pianos?). I'll have to look and see if there is a way to save a piano voice from my Motif Classic to a Smart Card, then load it (via USB I guess) into a Motif ES... Thanks again! Alexis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newguy_dup1 Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Just to document for the record: today, at this time, a S90ES (88 key version) is selling for $1999.99. And, the website says,"Special item - no returns, non-cancellable order). http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=394083&Q=&is=REG&A=details Sounds like they're getting ready for the S90XS! I wonder what this cost 3-4 weeks ago, maybe the S90XS release-driven price reduction is already in place ... Addendum: AND, it's not even available at ZZsounds.com anymore! http://www.zzounds.com/item--YAMS90ES Alexis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burningbusch Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I think it's this Thursday, 6/11, when the S90XS and S70XS will be officially announced. We'll know more then. Yamaha has been pretty good about getting the products out to the resellers in a reasonable period of time. Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Link Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Id just as soon stick with a Yamaha product - it took me years to figure out how to think like a Motif manual writer, and Id just as soon not waste that hard-earned knowledge! Well put. I have an old S90 that I use mostly for the piano and EP sounds, but need some horns, strings, chromatic percussion, etc. once in a while, mostly playing 2nd KB for a show once a year. I haven't taken as much time as needed to figure out all the capabilities and when I have needed to do something, I have found the manual to be extremely frustrating to use. aka âmisterdregsâ Nord Electro 5D 73 Yamaha P105 Kurzweil PC3LE7 Motion Sound KP200S Schimmel 6-10LE QSC CP-12 Westone AM Pro 30 IEMs Rolls PM55P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanL Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Thank you, GregH and others! GregH, you wrote:It has fewer factory preset voices than the Motif ES, but since all of the ES waveforms are still there, you can load any missing ES voice that you might require onto the S90ES. Does that mean that if I wanted a Motif Classic factory preset voice that was not in the S90ES, I would need to build it from elements? I haven't gotten to that level of programming yet ... is that sort of process a trial and error thing, or does Yamaha list somewhere what elements make up each voice, and what effects are then applied to make the final sound? That might be a deal killer to me (in terms of the S90ES or XS) if there were a lot of voices missing in the ES, and they required a lot of programming time. You also wrote GregH (and thank you for doing so!):When comparing any of the ES-series instruments to the Motif Classic series instruments, you'll see that some of the waveforms from the Classic series didn't make it to the ES series. For most folks, this didn't really make much of a difference...except to those who were fond of the Classic pianos. Again, the S90ES piano trumps either the ES or Classic pianos (in my opinion). I'm a piano player at heart, and I love a great piano sound. Sad to know that some of these sounds were lopped off when moving from the Classic series. And nice to know that the S90ES piano trumps the Motif ES and Motif Classic pianos (not Motif SX pianos?). I'll have to look and see if there is a way to save a piano voice from my Motif Classic to a Smart Card, then load it (via USB I guess) into a Motif ES... Thanks again! I think there are some freebie banks out there that have all of the missing classic sounds so you can import them to the ES. From what I heard, they are not ones anyone would miss anyway. There are a ton of free sound sets out there though, so if there is something on an ES board you need, it might be found in the free stuff. Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1 Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6 www.bksband.com www.echoesrocks.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I think there are some freebie banks out there that have all of the missing classic sounds so you can import them to the ES. From what I heard, they are not ones anyone would miss anyway. There are a ton of free sound sets out there though, so if there is something on an ES board you need, it might be found in the free stuff. Yes. The Motif ES preset banks (and some additional nice banks) were converted to S90ES and are available for download. The data structure within the synth engine is the same but the windows-based-editor uses a slightly different file format for each synth. Although the S90ES synth engine and data is a superset of the Motif ES ... you might the miss the Motif ribbon controller if you went with the S90ES. With the Motif XS or SX90/70) several additional features will have changed. Whatever synth you get (S series or Motif) it will be an upgrade, and some things will change. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT156 Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 by newguy dup1: Does that mean that if I wanted a Motif Classic factory preset voice that was not in the S90ES, I would need to build it from elements? I haven't gotten to that level of programming yet ... is that sort of process a trial and error thing, or does Yamaha list somewhere what elements make up each voice, and what effects are then applied to make the final sound? That might be a deal killer to me (in terms of the S90ES or XS) if there were a lot of voices missing in the ES, and they required a lot of programming time. You have to keep in mind that the waveforms are different from the orginal Motif to the Motif ES series. If you load a patch, program, or sound, whatever you want to call it, if the element from the original Motif is missing, the sound won't play properly. I don't believe that the S90ES can "substitute" what element is missing on the fly. In the case of my Motif ES8, I can load any original Motif sound, and if an element is missing, the sound is loaded into RAM, and it will play. I have loaded up several sounds from the original Motif onto my ES8, and I notice that my Motif ES will save the element that is missing with the sound that I loaded into RAM onto a USB drive when I save the song. I do believe it is loaded into sample ram, because if the sound (or waveforms) are not present when you start up, it will not play, it has to be loaded up from a USB drive. The same is true of my user voices that I saved in my user banks that contain elements from the original Motif, I have to load All Voice before i load any songs because the user sounds that have non resident elements will be empty. The only thing I'm not sure of is WHERE it is actually loaded, volatile memory for songs, or sample memory for loading Wav files and AIFF files into the sampler. Fortunately, my MOTIF knows where it goes and loads it up for me. Don't be intimidated by using "elements". On the ES series, each sound can have up to 4 elements, if you edit a sound and it only has say 2 elements in the sound, you can just switch "On" a third and/or fourth element and then page through a list of elements (waveforms) that the Motif has in ROM until you find one that is similar to what you already have in the sound, or something that you want to try to blend with an existing sound. For example, you can have a string patch that only has one or two elements, and then you can add a Choir Element to the string Elements to get voices along with the String Elements. That's one of the advantages of having separate waveforms types by category in a list you can page through. It's not a big deal. If I can do it, ANYONE can do it. Trust me, I'm computer stupid. Just don't worry about it, you will get to it when you get to it, or just ignore doing it at all. Most of the sounds on any of the Motif series can be reversed engineered and similar waveforms that are resident in ROM can be substituted for one that is not resident in your particular board. I don't know if Yamaha has a patch list that tells you what waveforms are in each sound. It might be a good question to ask on Motifator.com. Also, you can get the S90ES for less than $1999.00. That's the advertised price. We cannot talk about specific prices by specific dealers on this Forum, but you want to check around once you decide what you want. Also keep in mind that if you are looking for hands on help after you buy something, you may want to check with a local dealer that has someone that knows the board you are planning on buying and is willing to give you some support after you buy it. That is worth paying a little more for. Cheers, Mike T. Yamaha Motif ES8, Alesis Ion, Prophet 5 Rev 3.2, 1979 Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase 73 Piano, Arp Odyssey Md III, Roland R-70 Drum Machine, Digitech Vocalist Live Pro. Roland Boss Chorus Ensemble CE-1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newguy_dup1 Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 Thank you Tusker, and MikeT156: These are very specific details that help me immensely. And thanks again to all! Alexis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogut Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 The major difference is that the Motif series (Es and XS)has a sampler and sequencer, which you don't need! I'm not sure what Moqut is referring too. Maybe he can clue us in. Mike T. Well, lets see... One thing I can think of is 4 part performance layering, compared to 16 part in mix mode with motif. Although obviously im not an expert on the S90XS, it might have it. Max 4 parts would never sit well with me. When I think of more I'll post it. Im on vacation in the keys atm. -Greg Motif XS8, MOXF8, Hammond XK1c, Vent Rhodes Mark II 88 suitcase, Yamaha P255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tusker Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Well, lets see... One thing I can think of is 4 part performance layering, compared to 16 part in mix mode with motif. The S series and the Motifs provide 4 part performance layering and 16 part mix mode. AFAIK they are identical in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogut Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I see he posted the same question in motifator.com... good idea -Greg Motif XS8, MOXF8, Hammond XK1c, Vent Rhodes Mark II 88 suitcase, Yamaha P255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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