I LOVE THIS TOWN!!!

[zephonic]

I've been in L.A. for two months now and have seen and heard the most amazing musicians on the planet. But even better, I found some that want to play my stuff, they play it fabulously and they do it for free! All my life I've been searchin' for these cats and they just own it! I am the luckiest dude in the world. Had to tell y'all!

G'nite

 

[ProfD]

It is great that your LA experience is enjoyable musically.

 

I agree, it is a great feeling to have musos willing to play your music.

 

However, I never get excited about musos playing for free. Offer them something. If they turn it down, no problem.

 

Music is being reduced to wallpaper. Folks rip and download it without paying.

 

I've even read comments by other musos suggesting the price of CDs should be $1.

 

Of course, it is not my intention to rain on your parade.

 

But, I do not want folks to think music should be free and/or expect musicians to play for nothing.

[Legatoboy]

Wish I was in LA for a week or so, haven't been there in a while!

Good luck Zep!

lb

[MikeT156]

LA is a unique place. I haven't been there in a long time, but I heard tons of great bands, duos, and solo acts when I use to go out there. Between that and the number of babes running around everywhere, WOW. All you need is LOTS OF MONEY to live there!

 

I don't care much for all the traffic and weirdos.

 

Mike T.

[KenElevenShadows]

A lot of those weirdos are the very people playing music.

 

I only wish that the traffic were all the people trying to get to our gigs.

[MikeT156]

No, I'm talking about REAL Weidros. Criminal type Weidros. The kind that molest children and other nasty things. All big cities have them. LA may have more because its warmer there and bums can sleep outdoors. I wouldn't try that in Chicago.

 

Mike T.

[Dave Ferris]

I don't care much for all the traffic and weirdos.

 

Mike T.

 

Ha-ha, I hear ya there.

 

I refer to a lot of them has "beautiful people".

 

The level of musicianship is higher here than anywhere in the world I think. Thus I continue to hang.

 

The level of Jazz playing is higher in NYC and the outlying areas than anywhere in the world.

[MikeT156]

Quote by Dave Ferris:

 

"The level of musicianship is higher here than anywhere in the world I think. Thus I continue to hang.

 

The level of Jazz playing is higher in NYC and outlying areas than anywhere in the world."

 

I heard some pretty great acts when I use to hang there. Are they still doing the "pay to play" bullshit out there? Talk about exploitation.

 

Mike T.

[Dave Ferris]

Mike, I'm not really in that scene so I can't say first hand. When I first arrived 30 yrs. ago (last Jan. 7), there were a lot of door gigs around but even then it seemed like there was some kind of guarantee. It seemed like that kind of thing (paying to play) started getting popular in the middle '90s. By that time I was pretty established doing more recording sessions, casuals and the occasional road gig. I've done plenty of door gigs in my time out here but I don't think I've ever walked out with less than $25 in my pocket. Things are quite different today though, I'm sure glad I'm not a young kid trying to come up in this day and age.

[ProfD]

The level of musicianship is higher here than anywhere in the world I think.

 

The level of Jazz playing is higher in NYC and the outlying areas than anywhere in the world.

Something doesn't add up if cats are playing for free, exposure, $25, etc.

 

However, I understand the point. A virtuoso sax player just came back from LA. No gigs.

 

I'm no economist but it seems high level musicians would be better served spreading out and establishing themselves in less congested cities.

 

I understand the lure of LA and NYC especially as it pertains to the music business. But, that isn't even the same game anymore.

 

Nowadays, many touring musicians are snatched out of churches.

[Geoff Grace]

No, I'm talking about REAL Weidros. Criminal type Weidros. The kind that molest children and other nasty things. All big cities have them. LA may have more because its warmer there and bums can sleep outdoors. I wouldn't try that in Chicago.

Sadly, child molesters are everywhere. You can probably even find them in your neighborhood.

 

Statistically, it's true that warmer climates in general have more crime per capita than most places. For awhile there, Phoenix had the highest crime rate per capita in the nation. I don't know if it still does, but it's plenty hot there. Even so, before Phoenix had that dubious distinction, it belonged to Detroit; so it's not always the hot places that are the worst.

 

As for other meanings of the word "weirdo," I will concede that LA has fewer conformists than most places; but there are plenty of in-the-closet nonconformists in areas that are less tolerant of differences.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

The level of musicianship is higher here than anywhere in the world I think.

 

The level of Jazz playing is higher in NYC and the outlying areas than anywhere in the world.

Something doesn't add up if cats are playing for free, exposure, $25, etc.

 

However, I understand the point. A virtuoso sax player just came back from LA. No gigs.

People who uproot their lives for the love of music -- like most of the pool here in LA -- are generally more hungry and will look for every opportunity to play -- for free, exposure, $25, etc. There is so much competition here, a lot of people feel they've got to undercut everyone else to get a gig. They're actually better off doing traditional networking -- making phone calls, going to clinics, meetings, etc. -- but that's still just another way of working for free until it lands you a good paying gig. And it's less fun than making music.

 

I'm no economist but it seems high level musicians would be better served spreading out and establishing themselves in less congested cities.

 

I understand the lure of LA and NYC especially as it pertains to the music business. But, that isn't even the same game anymore.

 

Nowadays, many touring musicians are snatched out of churches.

It's true that you can do it from elsewhere more and more, but there are still some gigs -- music for film & television, for example -- in which you're much better off being in LA.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[MikeT156]

Geoff:

 

Californians typically have had a pretty liberal attitude. Not in the political sense, but in dealing with different kinds of people and their lifestyles. I remember seeing girls/women walking around on public beaches wearing a bikini that they would be arrested for wearing in my neck of the woods. I also had occasion to go to Blacks Beach (a nude beach near San Diego for those who don't know) and I was not only surprised to see a very large number of people running around in the buff all day, but even more surprised to see life guards patroling the beach in jeeps. Even though it was "illegal" at the time, there were too many people to arrest, so they just let it slide. I really enjoyed the view.

 

That's what I mean by liberal attitude, more laid back. Where I live, people are way too conservative, and they arrest people for things that are just absurd. They don't want people that are drinking alcohol to drive cars, so students walk to downtown bars and drink too much, only to be arrested for "public drunkeness" while walking home. Stupid.

 

Mike T.

[Geoff Grace]

Geoff:

 

Californians typically have had a pretty liberal attitude. Not in the political sense, but in dealing with different kinds of people and their lifestyles. I remember seeing girls/women walking around on public beaches wearing a bikini that they would be arrested for wearing in my neck of the woods. I also had occasion to go to Blacks Beach (a nude beach near San Diego for those who don't know) and I was not only surprised to see a very large number of people running around in the buff all day, but even more surprised to see life guards patroling the beach in jeeps. Even though it was "illegal" at the time, there were too many people to arrest, so they just let it slide. I really enjoyed the view.

 

That's what I mean by liberal attitude, more laid back. Where I live, people are way too conservative, and they arrest people for things that are just absurd. They don't want people that are drinking alcohol to drive cars, so students walk to downtown bars and drink too much, only to be arrest for "public drunkeness" while walking home. Stupid.

When you put it that way, Mike, I see your point.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

It is great that your LA experience is enjoyable musically.

 

I agree, it is a great feeling to have musos willing to play your music.

 

However, I never get excited about musos playing for free. Offer them something. If they turn it down, no problem.

 

Music is being reduced to wallpaper. Folks rip and download it without paying.

 

I've even read comments by other musos suggesting the price of CDs should be $1.

 

Of course, it is not my intention to rain on your parade.

 

But, I do not want folks to think music should be free and/or expect musicians to play for nothing.

+1

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

Something doesn't add up if cats are playing for free, exposure, $25, etc.

Okay, I've decided to come clean about the real reason all these players would do anything to live here.

 

 

 

 

It's the avocados.

 

 

 

So tasty, smooth, delicious, and so... well... green.

 

Southern California avocados are unlike those from anywhere else AND they're highly addicting.

 

They're good for your heart too.

 

I'm eating one in a sandwich now. Heaven!

 

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[ProfD]

Something doesn't add up if cats are playing for free, exposure, $25, etc.

Okay, I've decided to come clean about the real reason all these players would do anything to live here.

 

It's the avocados. So tasty, smooth, delicious, and so... well... green.

Geoff, that makes a lot of sense. They are green i.e. the color of money. Relatively inexpensive. Maybe avocados are the modern equivalent of beans.

[zephonic]

I think something I said in the OP was misinterpreted. I've started a band with some very good musicians and they like and believe in my music. As such they'r willing to put in time and effort (and even a few bucks) to make it happen. As soon as we have gigs we will share whatever money we get, of course. It's just that we rehearse and all chip in for the room, I don't have to give anybody gas money etc. As such I consider myself lucky to have players like these.

 

On a different note, I think some of the best music I ever heard (or played) was done for free, be it on jam sessions or in an informal setting. We all need to make a buck, but once you only play music for money you'll soon forget why you started playing in the first place.

Even high profile entertainers like George Benson and Stevie come out and jam every now and then. Sheila E dropped in on Byron Miller's session last week. I hear she paid for her dinner :-)

 

edit:

Also, the reason I came to L.A. is because I knew I'd have to go either here or to NYC to find the type of musicians I need. I had a friend with whom I could stay in L.A. and I like the weather better. That settled it. Finally, I'm not a heavy Jazz dude like Dave Ferris, Steve Kessler or Carlo here. I'm more into contemporary jazz-type stuff and L.A. seems to have more musicians who are into that kind of thing.

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

 

.....it seems high level musicians would be better served spreading out and establishing themselves in less congested cities.

 

Every player in town I know, myself included, has asked the same $64 question----Where?!

 

I think we've all checked other places but when it comes down to it, unless you are a name cat, it's either here or the NYC vicinity.

 

I'd move up to Portland tomorrow if I thought there was enough of a scene to support me. My friend is the best known jazz piano player in town and he said, nothing happening here, he has to go on the road to make a living. Luckily for him he was able to hook up with a name act, no small feat for living in Portland.

 

A bass player who played on a trio CD of mine moved up to Seattle about 3 or 4 years ago, he can't get arrested because it's a small scene and very closed except to the regulars who've been there their whole lives....and my friend plays his A..off!

 

The sign of REALLY MAKING IT in this town is when you can move to somewhere hip like Boulder, Co., Santa Barbara, Carmel, Victoria Island or wherever and still get the calls for what you do.

[Dave Ferris]

 

A virtuoso sax player just came back from LA. No gigs.

 

Nowadays, many touring musicians are snatched out of churches.

 

Your friend is not alone, everyone is dying out here.

 

 

That's very true. I'm sure in every little or medium size city somewhere here in this country there is a total MF on his or her ax in some genre that could play with anybody.

 

 

[marino]

Hi Menno - do you mean you're *still* in L.A. since NAMM?! Wow, you have big vacations! Hope you enjoy the biggest success - and if you're still there next summer, we could meet in person once again!

[Joe Muscara]

You considering going back, Carlo?

[zephonic]

Hey Carlo, good to hear from you, how are you? How's Rome? Yeah, I'm still here and don't want to leave. I'm not on vacation, I was on sabbatical but should have been back last October!

 

If I'm still around, let me know in advance when you're coming down again!

[ProfD]

I've started a band with some very good musicians and they like and believe in my music. As such they'r willing to put in time and effort (and even a few bucks) to make it happen. As soon as we have gigs we will share whatever money we get, of course. It's just that we rehearse and all chip in for the room, I don't have to give anybody gas money etc. As such I consider myself lucky to have players like these.

I didn't read that into the initial post. Thought it was a free gig.

 

Otherwise, I think it is fantastic that you've found musos willing to help build a band.

 

On a different note, I think some of the best music I ever heard (or played) was done for free, be it on jam sessions or in an informal setting. We all need to make a buck, but once you only play music for money you'll soon forget why you started playing in the first place.

True on both accounts.

 

The beauty of youth is reckless abandon in playing for free i.e. fun.

 

While there are informal jam sessions here, 95% of the time, musos play for dough.

 

The questions are:

 

1) how much does it pay

 

2) what tunes

 

3) day, time and location

 

Seasoned musicians contend they still love music. But, if a gig doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense.

 

 

[MikeT156]

I've heard all the arguments of "playing for the love of the art", "you can't put a price on good music" etc. But there are a ton of people out there that have no problem exploiting you in the name of a "exposure", "benefits", "charity telethons", you name it. All to often exposure is a farce, you and/or your band end up playing for free for a club owner and he pockets all the money. Benefits usually benefit the people putting it on, organizations, managers, etc. who often times are not doing it for free, YOU ARE.

 

I heard a number of things about Jerry Lewis's Telethon and personally I wouldn't donate a bloody nickel to his scam. Jerry and his entourage travel and live in luxury, run up unbelievable food and frills bills, and I don't think our good buddy Jerry is doing it for FREE.

 

If you are going to do a benefit or play for free, I would spend some time finding out if its worth it, or if the people that are doing the benefits are ligit. Ask for financial statements and see what happens.

 

Pardon me for having a rotten attitude towards "benefits", but at my stage of life, I will play to benefit me.

 

Mike T.

[orangefunk]

In the end its all about an audience... you can be the best musicians in the world but if nobody wants to come and see you then you're not gonna get gigs... its gonna get harder in the current climate too...

 

Jazz, especially is a difficult music for an audience... even on this forum no-one really agrees on what it is... and people have their own take on what they like and what they perceive it to be... I get the feeling that a large percentage of the audience of a jazz concert are other musicians...

 

in the end its all about compromise.... I see musicians here in Oslo every week 'compromise'... if they didn't they couldn't survive... I asked several piano trios what they did to make ends meet and they told me "teach"... the gigs are a labour of love...

 

I've seen several 'name' jazz groups here play gigs that were rather bland and the audience go crazy (it really is all in the name IMHO)... and seen fantastic gigs in half empty pubs (which are usually the best!)...

 

About Portland, that would be an option for me too... I really loved my time there... best place in the US for me so far...

[cnegrad]

Replying to the left turn that this thread has taken:

 

From my vantage point, music as a main source of income is pretty much over in the USA, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, sure; there are a relative handful of those who can still make a living as touring players, session musicians, soundtrack composers, jingle producers, etc. But other than that, I think that we're seeing the death of an industry. Yeah, there will always be low paying bar gigs, but that's not really the type of income that one can count on to sustain a family. Recorded music is now "expected" to be free, and can be downloaded illegally from just about anywhere. So spending the time effort and money to create an elaborate recording is rarely going to create any kind of real return on investment. (I'm finishing up a CD project now that will likely be my last, if the situation doesn't change.) Therefore I can't justify buying more music gear, or hiring other musicians to perform on our recordings, or pay for pro-studio time.

 

From where I sit, it's the end of an era. And everything that I've accomplished in my life as a musician has been devalued to the point where I'm looking for a full time day job. Time to try to reinvent myself, so I can continue to support my family. I feel like one of my limbs has been cut off, but what recourse do I really have?

 

To the original poster: sorry about contributing to derailing your topic. And I'm glad that you're enjoying yourself. But when it comes to making a real future for yourself in the current state of the music business, I just don't see it, regardless of how great you and your band may be. People just aren't going to spend any decent money for it anymore.

[orangefunk]

good post cnegrad... I feel your situation... at some point in the past I made a decision to do a degree in computer science rather than music because I just felt some longevity there... music has become McDonalds for me... although i really love where jazz has gone since the 70s (fusion, ECM, classical influence et al) I am aware that there are too many groups doing that kind of music to too little an audience...

[Dave Ferris]

About Portland, that would be an option for me too... I really loved my time there... best place in the US for me so far...

 

I remember going up there for the first time in '91, I was running in the Portland Marathon trying to get a qualifying time for the Boston Marathon. (I just got in with a 3:14:40, the qualifying time for 35-39 age which I was in at that time was 3:15 or better)

 

I went to a jam session that was being led by my aforementioned pianist friend. I ended up sitting in and after playing a couple tunes was very well received. The first question, since I was new and no one had ever seen me was the obvious, "so where are you from"? I answered "LA". Well you would have thought I had leprosy after hearing that. It's cold in here ! I followed up with, "I'm just here to run the Marathon". Then it was, "hey man, welcome to town, great to have you here, how long you staying"?

 

This was during a time when a ton of musicians and just regular folks from LA were moving up to Portland in droves consequently driving up real estate prices, adding to congestion and understandably making the locals feel not so warm and fuzzy when they heard the word LA.

 

I do remember at that time my friend was working 6-7 nights a week doing jazz gigs in or around town. At that time the scene here was very good too, but not THAT good has far has being able to play in a club and just blow real jazz every night. The people there seemed to be much more into it than your typical jaded, narcissistic LA audience.

 

 

I'm sure every town has had a scene somewhat similar to this at one time or another but like everywhere else it's only a memory of the "good old days".

 

I do like the Northwest, Portland, Seattle, although I would probably choose to live outside a big city when we eventually get out of here. I've had my fill......The thrill is gone.

 

[Dave Ferris]

Replying to the left turn that this thread has taken:

 

From my vantage point, music as a main source of income is pretty much over in the USA, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, sure; there are a relative handful of those who can still make a living as touring players, session musicians, soundtrack composers, jingle producers, etc. But other than that, I think that we're seeing the death of an industry. Yeah, there will always be low paying bar gigs, but that's not really the type of income that one can count on to sustain a family. Recorded music is now "expected" to be free, and can be downloaded illegally from just about anywhere. So spending the time effort and money to create an elaborate recording is rarely going to create any kind of real return on investment. (I'm finishing up a CD project now that will likely be my last, if the situation doesn't change.) Therefore I can't justify buying more music gear, or hiring other musicians to perform on our recordings, or pay for pro-studio time.

 

From where I sit, it's the end of an era. And everything that I've accomplished in my life as a musician has been devalued to the point where I'm looking for a full time day job. Time to try to reinvent myself, so I can continue to support my family. I feel like one of my limbs has been cut off, but what recourse do I really have?

 

To the original poster: sorry about contributing to derailing your topic. And I'm glad that you're enjoying yourself. But when it comes to making a real future for yourself in the current state of the music business, I just don't see it, regardless of how great you and your band may be. People just aren't going to spend any decent money for it anymore.

 

Man you nailed it Mark.

 

I was thinking of spending a bunch of dough on recording gear, mics, pres, etc. You have to really ask yourself, what for? Almost anyone that does a self-produced, self-financed CD today is really making more has what my Trumpet player friend describes has a "vanity project". Nothing wrong with that, it's necessary to hear the fruits of ones labor, but realistically, aside from selling a few at your gigs, to friends and maybe a couple on the forum here, you'd be lucky to make a 50% return on your investment.

 

Unless you're a single guy or woman with no kids, I can't see how anyone can think of even trying to make a living playing nightclubs or any end of the live playing biz for that matter. I would say 80% of the guys I know around town in my age group are teaching or trying to hustle a teaching gig. I don't have the piece of paper, I've always studied privately. So that leaves me and many other of my comrades sitting around thinking...OK WTF now?!

 

I've always said, I think I came up in the last Golden Era of playing Jazz---maybe even live music in general.

 

edit: yeah I don't mean to take the luster off your time here either Z....it can be so inspiring to come to a place like this with so many great players. So enjoy yourself and best of luck to you.