Why would Mr. Dumble let somebody do this?

[Billster]

I don't find Oz Noy experimental to the degree of a Henry Kaiser.

 

I'm not going to convert you to a Fred Frith fan, am I?

[fantasticsound]

Fred Frith... That sent shivers up my spine.

[Bejeeber]

Okay then. Henry Kaiser's artistic work in that video stinks. Bad. Really bad.

 

As long it's your opinion. But somebody else might like it.

 

Right. This would be a case of IMO.

[fantasticsound]

Come to think of it, the first Henry Kaiser I heard, I believe, was off a Guitar Player sound page from the mid to late 1980's in which he was playing sounds behind the bridge. Sounded like a pig farm to me.

 

But the other side was a much more accessible piece that was interesting... but didn't really hold my attention very long.

[Billster]

Fred Frith... That sent shivers up my spine.

 

As intended!

[Guitarzan]

at first listen i found it shocking to my ears, but the next time it made more sense even if it isn't totally my cup of tea.

it doesn't sound as bad as some claim, it is more suprising because of what we expected to hear.

Strat + Dumble, and when the Alexander started playing we were all anticipating something else.

like i said it was shocking more than it was bad.

[Greg B.]

For what it is...I kinda like it. I'm not gonna run out and buy a Henry Kaiser record, and I damn sure won't be trying to get that sound out of my amp, but I get it. There's some eclectic, odd stuff out there that I can get into.

[Guitarzan]

the setup from the vid leads us to expect something else.

here is a Dumble amp and a Strat. then the bluesy riff played by Alexander sets us up to expect Strat sweetened tube tone from Henry. and smack! suprise!

like if you were expecting to taste milk when you took a drink and discovered orange juice. nothing wrong with orange juice but if you are expecting milk it is a BIG shock to your tongue.

like i said i don't find it horrible.

[Billster]

I agree Mr. Zan. I think that's the point. You are set up for one thing, and then what you get is something turned inside-out. Sonny Sharrock was a great one at that.

[Dr. Ellwood]

This person was singing the praises of Dumble's amps, and Mr. Dumble plays with this guy as he actively desecrates his mission of good tone.

.

 

Because he bought him lunch at Taco Bell???

[Phil W]

I agree Mr. Zan. I think that's the point. You are set up for one thing, and then what you get is something turned inside-out. Sonny Sharrock was a great one at that.

 

+1

 

I miss Sonny.

 

I've always been a sucker for that kind of surprise in music

[picker]

Why would Mr. Dumble let somebody do this?

 

Maybe the first syllable of his name is kicking in?

 

Or maybe, if he changed Howard to Alexander, he previously changed "Dumbell" to "Dumble"?

[Billster]

Why would Mr. Dumble let somebody do this?

 

THERE'S AN ARTISTIC REASON FOR THAT!!!!!!

[Bejeeber]

Why would Mr. Dumble let somebody do this?

 

THERE'S AN ARTISTIC REASON FOR THAT!!!!!!

 

Do we know that Dumble is on there for an artistic reason?

 

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there were other reasons such as:

 

1)Dumble's gotta pay bills and it was a paid gig (Henry Kaiser is an heir to the Kaiser steel fortune, and he should have a nice budget to work with, and not have to be concerned with earning money himself)

 

2) Dumble didn't realize going in that the music would be so awful (IMO!) sounding in that segment in the name of some artsy concept.

 

 

[Billster]

Aren't you reading a lot into the situation, not to mention assuming Dumble shares your musical tastes?

[Scott Fraser]

Do we know that Dumble is on there for an artistic reason?

I wouldn't be surprised that other reasons could be:

1)Dumble's gotta pay bills and it was a paid gig (Henry Kaiser is an heir to the Kaiser steel fortune, and he should have a nice budget to work with, and not have to be concerned with earning money himself)

2) Dumble didn't realize going in that the music would be so awful (IMO!) in that segment in the name of some artsy concept.

 

I would suggest also:

 

3) Dumble, being in the business of selling amps, realizes that any opportunity to obtain some publicity is a good thing business-wise.

or,

4) Dumble & Kaiser might be good pals who enjoy each others' company & like playing together.

 

Everybody has been quick to jump on this clip & say that, based on one example, Henry Kaiser absolutely sucks. Did anyone watch the rest of the video? Do we know that he didn't say something just prior to this like "Here's a completely insanely twisted pedal that can totally mess up whatever you play into it, as an example of how radical the output can be compared to the input,"? Do we have to apply the same standards for straight-ahead rock/pop guitar tone to other non-rock/pop styles? Since Henry is known specifically for extreme tone processing & experimental techniques, would it not make sense to assess what he does by the standards of that genre instead of mainstream guitar tones? Do we have to assume that something which displeases us must likewise displease everybody else, like Howard or Alexander Dumble? Are Howard & Alexander the same guy, or twins?

 

Scott Fraser

[Caevan O’Shite]

To be fair, of what I've seen and heard amongst the several clips from that vid, the only bit that was all that bad was that little segment that started this thread.

 

Some of the rest- like that little sinewy, winding solo with some "backwards" sounding effects here and there- was actually interesting and quite good,

"In My Humble Opinion"...

[Billster]

Do we have to apply the same standards for straight-ahead rock/pop guitar tone to other non-rock/pop styles?

 

Well said.

 

Do we have to assume that something which displeases us must likewise displease everybody else...

 

Call him butter, 'cause he's on a roll!

 

Are Howard & Alexander the same guy, or twins?

 

Same guy

 

 

[Bejeeber]

Do we have to apply the same standards for straight-ahead rock/pop guitar tone to other non-rock/pop styles?

 

What other non-rock/pop style? When we hear Mr. Dumble very clearly establish the musical style with his accompaniment when Mr. Kaiser instructs him to play something low down for Henry to blow over, that's not an "other non-rock/pop style"! (and in this case when I say "blow", I mean it as in suck!).

 

(BTW, it may seem appear as if this Kaiser Krap video segment is some major issue to me, but really, just having some fun with it).

[Scott Fraser]

What other non-rock/pop style?

 

Henry Kaiser is a well known adherent of the loosely defined genre known by many names; experimental, atonal, free jazz, noise, avant-garde, free improv, creative music, etc. It is most definitely not rock nor pop.

 

When we hear Mr. Dumble very clearly establish the musical style with his accompaniment when Mr. Kaiser instructs him to play something low down for Henry to blow over, that's not an "other non-rock/pop style

 

Of course it is. What Henry plays on this clip has nothing whatsoever to do with rock or pop styles, & needs to be seen as coming from a completely different aesthetic. You don't judge a guy in a power chord/metal band for not playing extended jazz harmonies, & you can't judge a guy in the experimental world for not sounding like Page/Angus/EC/SRV/Eric Johnson.

 

Scott Fraser

[Dr. Ellwood]

What in your opinion, as a guitar player/musician, is there to be learned from players such as Henry Kaiser? Is there any organized,musical rationale to what he is doing? or is it free form completely, can any repeatable patterns be recognized or is everything random in nature?

[Billster]

When we hear Mr. Dumble very clearly establish the musical style with his accompaniment when Mr. Kaiser instructs him to play something low down for Henry to blow over, that's not an "other non-rock/pop style"!

 

Refer to this earlier response

 

It's a setup. Dumble sets a swampy groove leading the listener to expect a certain type of melody. That expectation is then turned on its head. THAT is the point of the exercise - the contrast between expectation and actuality.

 

 

(BTW, it may seem appear as if this Kaiser Krap video segment is some major issue to me, but really, just having some fun with it).

 

For fun you could stop calling it "Krap" then

 

FWIW, the initial clip has a few moments where the extreme modulation on Kaiser's guitar takes the notes through some really exciting micro-tonal places. Obviously, some of the effected notes are just plain out of tune, but there's a few lines where he achieves some very expressive "between the frets" tonalities.

[Bejeeber]

you can't judge a guy in the experimental world for not sounding like Page/Angus/EC/SRV/Eric Johnson.

 

I'm not judging him for what he plays over a stock BLUES accompaniment because he doesn't sound like Page/Angus/EC/SRV/Eric Johnson.

 

I can, and clearly will judge him though for sounding like Krap. [font:Impact]Kaiser Krap![/font]

 

Even if there's supposed to be some artsy excuse about being experimental. Man that's one failed experiment. Lotsa people experiment, but they don't put the inevitable failures that are part of the process out there for public consumption under the guise of art.

 

IMO.

 

 

[Dr. Ellwood]

I remember my first piano recital, but what I remember most was after I had finished and totally wrecked what I was supposed to be playing, my teacher said to my parents " well, that was interesting " no one appreciated my experiment! what a bunch of CLODS!!! LOL!!

[Billster]

What in your opinion, as a guitar player/musician, is there to be learned from players such as Henry Kaiser? Is there any organized,musical rationale to what he is doing? or is it free form completely, can any repeatable patterns be recognized or is everything random in nature?

 

Check my post above that I was typing while you posted!

 

I think that particular clip explores micro-tonal intervals because of the fluctuating pitch modulation. It doesn't always work, but when it does, it's something that's hard to get at in other ways.

 

Check out the recent GP article on Adrian Belew, where he discusses practicing with his effects rig to perfect being able to repeat the sounds he achieves.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Ahhh ok I see it now..thanks Bill..

[Caevan O’Shite]

I think that the point of the clip that most of this thread's posts are concerned with, with that short little passage of Henry Kaiser soloing over Howard Alexander Dumble's comping, was to demonstrate in a very off-the-cuff, whipped-off manner, a weird effect that Kaiser enjoyed playing with, and not an exercise or experiment or improvisational composition or really much of anything considered terribly important at the time. Like Neil Diamond's saying that his guitar has an Em that'll break your heart, Henry Kaiser wanted to show that his rig had some unexpected sounds, and maybe we've read an awful lot into it.

 

In short, not anything all that artsy, just something fairly randomly fartsy. We all do brief little screwing-around-blurbs on the guitar to demonstrate techniques, tones, music-theory applications, effects both electronic and manual that are far from perfect, being hurried or exaggerated- immediately done and over with little thought as long as what was being demonstrated was conveyed. This one just happened to be packaged up in a video, preserved for replay and subsequent inevitable judgment once sliced up into little vid-bites and brought up on an internet forum.

 

And Lee, I love your Mars-lander's-eye-view avatar-image there that's currently displayed.

[Phil W]

+1 Caevan

[soggybomb]

Everybody has been quick to jump on this clip & say that, based on one example, Henry Kaiser absolutely sucks. Did anyone watch the rest of the video? Do we know that he didn't say something just prior to this like "Here's a completely insanely twisted pedal that can totally mess up whatever you play into it, as an example of how radical the output can be compared to the input,"?

In intro video to the segment, Kaiser talks about how he likes to explore the worlds of weird effects to create his music. While this is a valid exploration, in his obsession with weird effects I think he loses sight of the fact that its the player that makes the music, not an effect. In the end, it all comes down to how you can translate the music in your head to your fingertips and then to your audience. As with any art medium, avant-garde styles always exist and I respect people who embrace them. However, that does not mean I have to like him. I believe Kaiser's tone in this clip is shrill and over-processed, and not musical, and that it actually detracts from the interesting spontaneity of what Kaiser is playing. I think Kaiser could really put forth some unique playing, and I think that the spine-tingling this sound causes prevents this from happening.

 

Do we have to apply the same standards for straight-ahead rock/pop guitar tone to other non-rock/pop styles? Since Henry is known specifically for extreme tone processing & experimental techniques, would it not make sense to assess what he does by the standards of that genre instead of mainstream guitar tones? Do we have to assume that something which displeases us must likewise displease everybody else...

Experimentalism is simply that, an experiment designed to see whether or not a musical sound can work, and experimental genres are just genres where the music is the recorded experiments of the musicians. What I think is happening here is Kaiser is not looking at the results of the experiments, but rather is constantly testing a hypothesis without gathering data. I am by no means implying in my criticism that I am restricting my viewpoint to preference of only one tone. I embrace lots of different sounds and styles, but this simply isn't one of them. For example, I have really enjoyed music by Swedish guitarist Mattias IA Eklundh. Some people may not take to his tone or frequent pinched harmonic use, but I think it is interesting, humorous, and part of his unique, lighthearted tone, which is a direct translation of his personality. His tone is not what most people would consider 'classic' or 'warm', but it works. Kaiser's simply isn't. My cat jumped when the sound came through my speakers. That isn't a good sign.

[Guitarzan]

twist your head around this!

 

Behold the arctopus