Korg X50 into Sibelius v4 help.

[Jim_L]

I've managed to get the X50 to input notes onto staves but there's no sound in or out. The X50 is listed in the Sibelius device menu but there's no 'sound set'. Anyone use an X50 into Sibelius v4 with any luck? I'm new to all this computer/midi/music stuff and am just looking to use the keyboard to create sheet music, not record music.

 

Neither the Sibelius nor the Korg websites have any info/answers on the subject (or thier forums).

Thanks,

-Jim

[xmlguy]

RTM p34

[Jim_L]

And rtm is...?

I should've mentioned I'm new to all this computer/music/midi stuff. I don't use a computer to create/record songs with.

[Floyd Tatum]

rtm = read the manual

[Jim_L]

Ah, humor....

Manuals, videos, company websites, 2 days of searching relavent forums (like this one) and still no answers, yet I find humor... very good!

;>)

[xmlguy]

There was no humor on my part. Page 34 of the X-50 manual describes exactly what you need to do to hear the X-50 when connecting to a computer. You didn't look very hard. RTM is the polite way of asking. RTFM is another way. They even have pictures for you.

[Jim_L]

I wasn't being rude, that's what the ;>) was for. I have been reading the manual many times, there's nothing left to do from the manual that I haven't done already like 'Local Control On' (and off just to be sure) and toggle/set multi-mode to 'Ext-Seq' and 'Master' (just to be sure).

 

Everything works for what single use I'm trying to do (ie: play keyboard, notes appear on staves) except there's no sound from the X50 using the X50 sounds. I'm just trying to find out why. If it can't be done, that's fine too.

 

There's no need to be harsh about it. If you've done it, perhaps you could type a listing of the exact proceedure on how you managed to get your computer to utilize the X50 sounds? That way i'll know and perhaps be able to answer the question for someone else someday.

-Jim

[xmlguy]

Describe the exact cables you have between your X-50 and your computer? How many cables are shown connected to the X-50 on the bottom left corner diagram on page 34 of the manual?

[Jim_L]

Well first, let me apologize if i've offended you, that was never my intention. Looking back at my post, I can see where my attempt at some humor (at the time) was lacking.

 

As for the cables, it's just a USB out from the keyboard and into my computer, there's no typical round midi in/out. A person on another forum told me that i'm limited to the sounds built into the program and it will not access the sounds/sound data in the synth which seems very odd to me as a synth (electronic keyboard of any kind w/midi/usb) has it's own sound, why not use them rather than some limited sound set.

 

I certainly would want to hear the sounds I originally used on a song to be recorded (the sound data/info) and played back, not someone elses 'sound type'. I would hope this sound/data/info would be saved with the file so if I sent it to someone else (collabing for instance) and they played the sheet music notation song file, they would hear the exact instrumentation I used.

 

For instance, I did a test using the computers default Microsoft Gs Wavetable SW Synth sound and chose an aproximate string sound, the test consisted of me playing a nice string sounding chord being held for 2 measures then released (I used headphones out from the synth to monitor what I played).

 

When I played the chord back, it was an 'immediate' dry piano chord 'plunk' sound even though the notation showed (to the best of my illiterate musical knowledge) the chord was supposed to be held.

 

That is kind of what I'm trying to point out with this as well, the sounds from the authors instruments should be saved with the file, otherwise it's just typical 'paper' sheet music.

Maybe my 'illiteracy' with computer music and my supposition/innocence with it all has given me an odd point of view/expectation of the process.

 

To me it would be like me creating a color dwg on the computer where I use certain colors or objects/shapes within it and I send it to you but you can't see the the complete dwg because you don't have the 'same' bits as I do on your computer.

I don't know how else to explain. The idea/method/intent behind the software design just seems to be backwards to me and makes no sense. I also thought that I could type text/lyrics first and then figure out/insert the notes later. As an illiterate musician, this would go a long way to get me to start figuring out how to read music, but it has done nothing but turn me away from the process - hence my desire to try the keyboard/midi note insertion process but for me to play my song keyboard bits properly (I'm not a keyboard player!), I need to hear the sounds I assigned/used for the parts. For me, it's like asking Van Halen to play eruption on a banjo and then we'll add his 'sound/distortion/volume' afterwards. You need the sound in order to play that way.

 

I hope that made sense.

-Jim

[Sven Golly]

The answer to this is quite simple, and it stems from your lack of experience with these things.

 

Simply put, the USB connection from your X50 does not pass audio to your computer, merely digital control signals stating which note (numerically) was pressed, at what velocity, etc.. There is absolutely NO audio being sent.

 

This is why the person on the other forum stated that you won't be accessing the sounds in your X50.

 

If you want to hear your X50, you need to plug the audio outputs into something that will cause it to be audible (an amplifier + speakers). You could also try plugging a pair of headphones into the X50; assuming you've got all the other connections correct, you should hear the X50 sounds.

 

So, to restate the underlying issue, USB is NOT audio.

 

Hope this helps.

 

[Floyd Tatum]

I certainly would want to hear the sounds I originally used on a song to be recorded (the sound data/info) and played back, not someone elses 'sound type'. I would hope this sound/data/info would be saved with the file so if I sent it to someone else (collabing for instance) and they played the sheet music notation song file, they would hear the exact instrumentation I used.

 

I agree with Sven's post above, and I would also add this:

 

If your intention is to send your files to someone else for them to play back, then maybe it's better for you to listen to Sibelius' built-in sounds. Unless the person you're "collabing" with (what's that?) also has an X50. I think in your case, it might be better to use either Sibelius' built-in sounds, or else use General Midi. I should add that I'm not a Sibelius user, and that I don't know any details about it, so don't ask me! However, I do know that it's a notation program, and I believe it comes with some built-in sounds.

 

The advice I offer you is based on being a synth/midi/computer user for 25 years.

 

I think perhaps you have more learning and reading to do. Good luck!

 

Unless you're outputting an audio file (i.e., .wav, or .mp3 etc), then actual audio is not saved with the file. What might be saved (potentially) in your Sibelies file is a pointer to a 'patch' (i.e. sound) number, and some midi data (note on/off, velocity, duration, note number, pedal on/off, etc). It all depends on how your particular software is designed, what its capabilities are. Have you ever hooked up a component stereo system? You need to think of your synth/midi/audio/sofware setup the same way: each item is a component, and has inputs and outputs. Some things need to be connected externally with wires, software components might be connected inside the computer. But I find it still helps to think of the system this way. Some components might have more than one sets of input/outputs - synths, for example, have audio ins/outs, and midi ins/outs. I find that sometimes it's helpful to draw a system data-flow diagram. If this paragraph helps, then great, otherwise, ignore it.

 

Can you describe in detail what your current system is, and how it is inter-connected? List all the components, and all connections between components. Include any headphones, stereo systems, keyboard amps, or whatever.

 

[Jim_L]

I do understand that midi doens' send audio info like what a spkr out or headphone jack would send, but I was on the phone earlier today with Korg tech support and the guy said that the USB port on the Korg X50 synth would work the same way as the typical midi in/out jacks. he suggested I set up Sibelius' software midi parameter channels properly. I tried to tell him there were none as I sat at the computer and delved (again) into the program menus.

 

I was also on the phone with the music store manager who owns an X50 too and he said the X50 does send/recieve sounds via usb and was going to recheck the X50's midi menu parameters on one at the store and call me back.

 

Collabing = collaborating...;>)

 

My computer system is a a250n HP (about 5 years old? maybe more?), stock except for anvidia gforce 4 graphic card, interior sound is provided by a Realtek AC97 audio driver, there's no separate soundcard. The usb cable comes out out from the synth and into the computer. Cheap self powered monitor speakers plugged into the computer. Non of the above has anything to do with my recording studio setup (no computers involved), well, the keyboard does, but I brought it into my living room where the compuetr is to try & see if I could bend the program to my will... it prefers to kick my arse...

 

The devices the program 'sees' are the computers microsoft wavetable, the Kontakt player that came with the program and the newly installed & updated Korg driver.

 

The only time I play music is with Media Player.

[Sven Golly]

Sigh... I don't know how much clearer I can make this, but let's try again.

 

1) The USB connection (as well as the MIDI connection) only passes 'digital notation' over the wire... not audio. I don't care that your X50-owning store manager is misrepresenting the capabilities of the synth, it does not send audio over USB.

 

2) The only way you're going to hear sounds out of your X50 is if you either plug headphones into the headphone jack, or plug cables between the audio outputs on the back of it into some sort of amplification system.

 

A person on another forum told me that i'm limited to the sounds built into the program and it will not access the sounds/sound data in the synth which seems very odd to me as a synth (electronic keyboard of any kind w/midi/usb) has it's own sound, why not use them rather than some limited sound set.

 

Your expectations are out of line with the application you're using. Sibelius is a NOTATION program, not a RECORDING program. You want to record your X50 sounds? Get something like Cubase, Logic, or Cakewalk. Much like hammering nails with a drill, you're using the wrong tool for the job you're trying to do.

 

I certainly would want to hear the sounds I originally used on a song to be recorded (the sound data/info) and played back, not someone elses 'sound type'. I would hope this sound/data/info would be saved with the file so if I sent it to someone else (collabing for instance) and they played the sheet music notation song file, they would hear the exact instrumentation I used.

 

See my comment above re: right tool for the job.

 

That is kind of what I'm trying to point out with this as well, the sounds from the authors instruments should be saved with the file, otherwise it's just typical 'paper' sheet music.

 

That's exactly what Sibelius is (at its core).

 

I won't bother going into detail about the versions of Sibelius that allow the use of bundled sound libraries, because we need to be sure you're getting the basic underlying concepts here first (walk, THEN run the marathon).

 

I'd suggest contacting Sibelius support for more assistance with this in the context of your scenario if this is still unclear for you.

 

[Jim_L]

Nope, but as you pointed out with the store owner & the companies tech support guy - sound yes/sound no. At this point no sound. Thanks guys.

;>)

[Sven Golly]

Nope, but as you pointed out with the store owner & the companies tech support guy - sound yes/sound no. At this point no sound. Thanks guys.

;>)

 

I have no idea what this means, but you're welcome...

 

[Floyd Tatum]

Nope, but as you pointed out with the store owner & the companies tech support guy - sound yes/sound no. At this point no sound. Thanks guys.

;>)

 

I don't understand what that sentence means.

 

Bottom line, if you want to hear audio from your x50, you're going to have to connect audio outputs of the x50 to the audio inputs of an amplifier, or, plug headphones into the x50 and put 'em on your head. Connecting your x50 to your computer via a usb cable provides a midi connection between your x50 and your computer, it does not pass an audio signal from the x50 to the computer.

 

Look at page 31 of your X50 Operation Guide: Quote:

 

"Note: The USB connector of the X50 is only able to transmit and receive MIDI data"

 

[Yoozer]

and the guy said that the USB port on the Korg X50 synth would work the same way as the typical midi in/out jacks.

It does. Theoretically, if you replace the USB cable from the X50 with an USB-MIDI interface (USB in the computer, MIDI to the X50) the result is the same; it's now just put through one cable.

 

he suggested I set up Sibelius' software midi parameter channels properly. I tried to tell him there were none as I sat at the computer and delved (again) into the program menus.

When you hook up the X50 to your computer, Windows should tell you "New hardware found: USB MIDI device" or something like it. If it does not do that, you may have to install the driver software on the CD that came with it. Otherwise, no music program you use will know that there's an X50 hooked up to your computer at all.

 

I was also on the phone with the music store manager who owns an X50 too and he said the X50 does send/recieve sounds via usb and was going to recheck the X50's midi menu parameters on one at the store and call me back.

He's right; but the sounds he is talking about are presets. That's not the actual sound; those are just the settings (e.g. which samples it should use, but not the samples itself, what the volume/filter/pitch envelopes look like, if you have a Hall or a Chorus effect).

 

The devices the program 'sees' are the computers microsoft wavetable, the Kontakt player that came with the program and the newly installed & updated Korg driver.

Choosing the Korg driver should solve it then, but I agree that the notation software is not the right tool for the job.

 

Let's see if we can test your setup, first.

 

- get yourself the demo of Sonar here: http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/kb/kb20061101.asp

- see if you can make the X50 show up in the list of MIDI devices (keyboards won't announce themselves by name, generally; even my PadKontrol is called "USB MIDI device"

- put a VST plugin or whatever else that makes noise on a track

- tell the track it should receive on all MIDI channels

- Try to play something and see if it works.

 

Since all screenshots of Sonar I've seen look rather big and daunting, use the Quick Start/Get Started guide or whatever it's called that comes with it to figure out if you're doing it right.

[Floyd Tatum]

Yoozer, you're suggesting that he install even more software? I don't think that's good advice. If it were me, I wouldn't make it any more complicated than it already is.

 

Jim L, do you have the X50's audio outputs plugged into an amp? Or do you have headphones plugged into the X50?

 

Also, is that what you're trying to do, i.e., hear the audio output of the X50? Please explain the nature of the problem, as you see it - What is it that's not happening that you think should be happening? Or whatever?

 

If I read your original post correctly, you're getting midi out of the X50, and the X50 shows up in Sibelius device menu (both good, I think). But there's no "sound in or out", and no "sound set" - what do those things mean? Does it mean that you expect to hear the X50's sounds coming out of your computer speakers? That ain't gonna happen unless the X50's audio outputs are connected to something....

[Yoozer]

Floyd: Sonar's more geared towards using instruments with it than Finale is, I guess, and it's what Sven is suggesting, too . Anyway, a dozen sequencers aren't the problem (a hundred softsynths is) and it's basically another way to see if he can get MIDI to work; a second opinion of sorts. If it works in Sonar, his settings in Finale are wrong; if it doesn't, the driver may not be installed.

 

After re-re-reading everything once again, I spotted something else:

 

Jim_L: the sounds from the X50 are from the X50 and stay there. If you want someone else to hear what you used and they don't have an X50, they can't hear those sounds. Even if they have one, they might not hear it; there are MIDI commands that do the same as you do when you push a button to select a piano or string sound or anything else: they're called Program Changes. However, you specifically need to record them and your software has to be able to deal with that. This is how those sounds are "remembered"; but the most reliable way to remember anything is to just keep the MIDI track, save the preset on your computer (using a SysEx dump or the Editor software of your X50 that came with it), and record the outputs of the X50 in your computer; relying on one of these three isn't enough.

 

[Jim_L]

Ok, I'll try to explain:

 

1) I'm not trying to record songs on my computer, I have a separate dedicated Korg D3200 32 track recording setup in another spare room for that.

 

2) I'm an illiterate musician and am trying to generate sheet music for some of my new tunes that I use my synth on (orchestrated pieces) for a sequel I wrote for my musical comedy (for the stage) as for the first play, I had to have someone take my recordings and transcribe them into sheet music. Here's the tune (w/out vocals) i'm trying to transcribe by doing all this that I wrote on the X50:

http://www.mydatabus.com/public/tavernstuff/Willis_Song_Final_Music.mp3

I am such a bad keyboard player that it took me 4 days to just play/get the piano sound recorded good enough to keep the take(it's really only been about 2 weeks that I've really tried to play the thing even though I've always had a synth for the last 20 years or so, I've had the X50 for about a year now)

 

3) This time I figured i'd try & 'help out' a bit (only on the keyboard based songs) by plugging my synth into the computer - replay the instrument parts (violin, flute, etc.) into Sibelius and generate the sheet music which, later on, would be modified as needed by the music director. All just to help save time and it may also help me get some type of understanding of notation.

 

4) I installed the Korg X50 drivers, windows control panel - sounds/audio devices sees the X50.

 

5) Sibelius sees the X50 and playing the X50 does create notation on any selected stave. The X50 is selected as the 'sound device'. During playback, there is no sound from the synth through either the computer speakers or headphones which i've plugged in either the computer or the synth.

 

6) Now my understanding is that Sibelius send the midi info back to the synth (via the USB cable) thereby generating the differing instrumental sounds per each stave. The synth should then play the parts back.

 

7) Sibelius v4 doesn't have any menu/setup/parameters for midi send/return. It does have a dialog box called 'Playback & Input Devices' where you can select a 'Sound Device' from a pull down menu - in my computer's case, what shows up are: Sibelius' Kontakt Player that came with Sibelius, Microsofts Wavetable Synth and the X50.

There is another selectable menu per each 'Device' called 'Sound Set' where you can choose existing sets of sounds by synth types based on manufacturers such as Korg, Roland, Alesis, etc. Here's a screenshot:

http://www.mydatabus.com/public/tavernstuff/e/menusample.jpg (150k jpg)

 

8) The X50 is connected to the computer by a single USB cable which, according to Korgs tech support does send/receive midi info (not audio as does the synths speaker/headphones output, I understand that...;>)

 

9) I also installed Finale Notepad (again, last night - I'm a sucker for punishement...;>) and setup the X50 and discovered I can now (???) add notes to staves and it does play back and I can hear them but there's no provision to play specific sounds during recording (that I can find - yet) from the X50. I would think that the program would 'see' all the sounds specific to instrument types. That plus being Notepad, it only allows 8 staves (which I can work around with multiple saved pages I suppose). At this point, even though the whole Sibelius - no sound - thing is really irritating me, i'll probably stop trying to make it work (but I'm so close!!!) and delve more into Notepad.

 

That's about it in a nutshell.

[Jim_L]

Just got a reply from the school's ex-music teacher (he moved out of state) and he said that Notepad only goes up to 8th notes, so that's out & it's back to Sibelius...

[bloodyMary]

I suggest that you try again from scratch.

 

Deinstall Sibelius.

Reinstall Sibelius.

Restart.

Connect Korg and PC with USB.

Make sure the PC sees the Korg (go to 'control panel'-> 'sounds and audio devices'->'audio' tab, and verify that there's something other than MS GS wavetable synth is 'MIDI playback device' list. It should show 'Korg X50' or 'USB device').

 

Power up the Korg, go to multitimbral mode.

Start Sibelius.

Go to MIDI devices option, or whatever menu that allows choosing midi devices for playback and recording. (Not familiar with Sibelius, so can't tell exactly)

Select the Korg or "USB device" both for mid input and midi output.

 

Plug the speakers into Korg's outputs, power 'em up.

 

It should work.

 

If not working - look for updates for Sibelius which fix this bug.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

I've used Yamaha and Korg and Roland synths as my midi input keyboards and sound modules with various versions of Cubase and Sonar. It should be very easy to hook up.