Who's the fastest?

[bloodsample]

IMO it's a bit silly to compare fast improvisation with fast pre-written playing. I found by experience that if I practice a classical piece for a long time I can play it much faster than I could improvise because I'm not as developed in that department. To me, the only impressive fast playing is the one where the pianist is creating something interesting on the spot. I guess as far as technique goes, it's all the same, but simply moving parts of your body fast is not as impressive as involving your brain in creating something in real time at that speed.

 

Fun thread, lots of good videos. I think the OP wanted an objective answer. The goal is to establish who was/is technically fastest, regardless of if that makes them good or bad players.

 

 

[Jazz+]

To qualify, the jazz pianist must play fast with clarity and with a straight ahead melodic sense, not just technical patterns, no pre-written parts, no smears or "free improveisation." He must be ad libbing inside the changes.

 

[Bridog6996]

One could make the argument that nobody truly improvises, and that all "improvisations" are regurgitations of patterns previously learned and stored in the subconscious. I find this to be especially true at the high tempos that we're talking about here. In order to perform comfortably at such high tempos, the brain basically needs to go on autopilot. I guarantee that if you transcribed and analyzed any of those solos by Oscar, Gonzalo, or whoever else, you'd find them chock full of obvious scales and patterns. Hell, you can break down nearly all of Charlie Parker's solos into about 30 patterns that he would rearrange and vary in different ways.

 

As for fast playing of pre-written material versus improvising, I find there's really no difference between the two.

 

Edit: And futhermore, under those guidelines, I would think that you'd have to disqualify Oscar, as his solo lines are about the most "patterned" you'll find. I don't mean that as any sort of disrespect. I defy anyone to play patterns with Oscar's facility.

[Jazzwee]

One could make the argument that nobody truly improvises, and that all "improvisations" are regurgitations of patterns previously learned and stored in the subconscious.

 

Sometime ago, I would have believed you in saying this statement. But my current teacher truly improvises. He does not have me remember or practice any patterns. And his own playing does not reflect any lick based approaches. He is well recognized in jazz circles.

 

But in doing this, he specifically teaches me to avoid playing fast. He himself limits playing fast to short moments and he will put sufficient space in there so he can think melodically. (yes he can play extremely fast). I've grilled him on this subject multiple times and he's explained to me that practically all his recordings were done in one take.

 

Eldar was a student of his at one point, and he specifically told him to slow down and make a musical statement.

 

I think you could be right that most fast players are very pattern based and I can recognize patterns in many players. But then again some players, I cannot discern the patterns. I was in a concert watching Joanne Brackeen playing and I could not detect licks and she was playing pretty fast stuff. Mulgrew Miller, I could detect the patterns clearly. I guess he's from the Oscar camp. I can detect lots of licks in Eldar's playing.

 

 

 

 

[zephonic]

One could make the argument that nobody truly improvises, and that all "improvisations" are regurgitations of patterns previously learned and stored in the subconscious. I find this to be especially true at the high tempos that we're talking about here. In order to perform comfortably at such high tempos, the brain basically needs to go on autopilot. I guarantee that if you transcribed and analyzed any of those solos by Oscar, Gonzalo, or whoever else, you'd find them chock full of obvious scales and patterns. Hell, you can break down nearly all of Charlie Parker's solos into about 30 patterns that he would rearrange and vary in different ways.

 

As for fast playing of pre-written material versus improvising, I find there's really no difference between the two.

 

Edit: And futhermore, under those guidelines, I would think that you'd have to disqualify Oscar, as his solo lines are about the most "patterned" you'll find. I don't mean that as any sort of disrespect. I defy anyone to play patterns with Oscar's facility.

 

You have a point, but there ARE musicians who truly create stuff on the spot. I think of Miles and Herbie in particular. You may hear familiar phrases in their solos, but they do invent new melodies everytime they go at it.

As for your statement on Bird, I'd have to respectfully disagree. Indeed, he -too- has his fave phrases but his stuff really has plenty of unexpected twists and turns.

 

[Bridog6996]

As for your statement on Bird, I'd have to respectfully disagree. Indeed, he -too- has his fave phrases but his stuff really has plenty of unexpected twists and turns.

 

What I said about Bird was a statement of fact, not opinion. It's been analyzed. It's also well documented that Bird practiced patterns and ways of stringing them together religiously. What I said wasn't exactly the whole story, though. There are about 30 patterns he played quite frequently, even multiple times in a single solo, but he used somewhere around 150-200 patterns overall. About 95% of his solos can be broken down into one of these patterns, although sometimes there were variations.

[zephonic]

As for your statement on Bird, I'd have to respectfully disagree. Indeed, he -too- has his fave phrases but his stuff really has plenty of unexpected twists and turns.

 

What I said about Bird was a statement of fact, not opinion. It's been analyzed. It's also well documented that Bird practiced patterns and ways of stringing them together religiously. What I said wasn't exactly the whole story, though. There are about 30 patterns he played quite frequently, even multiple times in a single solo, but he used somewhere around 150-200 patterns overall. About 95% of his solos can be broken down into one of these patterns, although sometimes there were variations.

 

Following this line of thought, I guess one could convincingly argue that the Bible consists of merely 200 words that are just strung together in different sequences...

Or that all Western music is actually chromatic, it's just that sometimes they leave out certain notes and that's why it sounds like major or minor...

[zephonic]

In fact, did you know that we always use the same 26 letters of the alphabet?

[Chaso DeChaso]

Matt Herskowitz is probably my current favorite for brilliant, fast, accurate, stunning technique...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8gYu05fpJw

[zephonic]

Matt Herskowitz is probably my current favorite for brilliant, fast, accurate, stunning technique...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8gYu05fpJw

 

Yeah, not that I can do any of what he does, but as good as it is, it didn't strike me as particularly fast, now?

[eric]

Much faster.

 

And more interesting.

 

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000905/michael.gif

[Gismo Recording]

In fact, did you know that we always use the same 26 letters of the alphabet?

 

Wëll, nôñ-Englísh spèákêrs hävé møre to çhöòse fróm.

 

[Bridog6996]

As for your statement on Bird, I'd have to respectfully disagree. Indeed, he -too- has his fave phrases but his stuff really has plenty of unexpected twists and turns.

 

What I said about Bird was a statement of fact, not opinion. It's been analyzed. It's also well documented that Bird practiced patterns and ways of stringing them together religiously. What I said wasn't exactly the whole story, though. There are about 30 patterns he played quite frequently, even multiple times in a single solo, but he used somewhere around 150-200 patterns overall. About 95% of his solos can be broken down into one of these patterns, although sometimes there were variations.

 

Following this line of thought, I guess one could convincingly argue that the Bible consists of merely 200 words that are just strung together in different sequences...

Or that all Western music is actually chromatic, it's just that sometimes they leave out certain notes and that's why it sounds like major or minor...

 

I'm not sure your point applies here, but either way, the bible contains much more than 200 words, and any person with a vocabulary of 200 words or less would be considered extremely "slow" to say the least. Not to say Charlie Parker is slow. In fact, I think he's brilliant. But if you're going to use this type of comparison, that's the reality of it.

[Steve Nathan]

Pointless thread. Fast? Silly.

 

Sorry J+. I'll take slow and soul-drenched over robotic speed any day.

 

 

Why so many musicians view music in the same light as NASCAR or Ultimate Fighting is one of life's greatest mysteries to me.

[kanker.]

Pointless thread. Fast? Silly.

 

Sorry J+. I'll take slow and soul-drenched over robotic speed any day.

 

 

Why so many musicians view music in the same light as NASCAR or Ultimate Fighting is one of life's greatest mysteries to me.

The faster you play, the sooner the gig's over, right?

[Dave Ferris]

As sophisticated and mature has a lot of musicians claim to be, I continue to be amazed at how many still buy into the

"school of higher, faster, louder" for being the pinnacle of creativity and art.

[jay da cop]

kanker, the flipside to that is the more songs you have to learn to fill the 3 hour block. 2 edged sword there I think.

 

Jay