Why aren't these guys BIG???

[Gifthorse]

maybe the problem is being a rock band w/ a frontman who's a black gay christian who doesn't look particularly clean-cut? Set for commercial failure right there, LOL!

 

Anyhow, they're good performers, etc but their hooks and vocal melodies don't appeal to me. Their playing, performance and the way they put their music together does, though. They way they pull of their vocal harmonies is awesome. But in the end, if the vocal melodies and guitar riffs, the chords/harmonies they use don't appeal to me, regardless how simple or complex all these may be, it really won't grab me. It seems to me these elements might be WHY they're not a bigger act... while I'm not part of "the crowd" when to comes to other acts, maybe most people share this appreciation w/ me.

 

Actually Pinnick isn't a Christian. He was, but changed his beliefs later on. His vocal influence is from gospel music from when he was a kid in church. The rest of the band is pretty nuetral on religion also. I even asked Jerry about it on Myspace.

 

I think unless people have really heard the deep cuts from them it is hard to comment on them cuz they do alot of different types of songs. I could play anyone 10 songs by them and they would definately like a few or more of them.

 

I have never cared for their radio releases. I hated that song Its love and thought Black Flag sounded like the Batman song.

 

Dogman was an ok song but in the scope of the album its one of teh worst ones (in my opinion). One of my favorites is a song called 'Out of the Silent Planet'. VERY cool, I bet most of you would like it too. Kind of a sabbath riff mixed with 2 and 3 part harmonies that are quite dissonant. Manic Moonlight is a cool tune.

 

Anyways, its all personal preference.

 

I think they looked like 80's dorks on thier first 2 albums but they had more of a 90's before the 90's grunge element sound. It was just confusing to people, and then the question of 'are they a christian band?' was always looming combined with releasing bad choices for the radio and a very annoying video for Black Flag.

 

But this is the deal also. Supposedly they had backing at Atlantic from some big wig guy that loved them. He retired after Dogman and the label wasn't interested in them anymore. I am a firm believer MONEY creates bands. If you don't have big money behind you getting you played on teh radio and in the public mainstream, good luck with all that if y ou wanna be BIG.

 

When Dogman was released, I rarely heard the one single on the radio. Very rarely. They didn't play any other stuff.

 

If you play a band on teh radio alot, people will buy it and listen to it. Masses are asses. They feed us and we eat it up.

 

A perfect example of this is that new Linkin Park song. I think it is called 'Bleed it out'. I mean does anyone think thats a good song? It sounds like it was written by a 5th grader to annoy his sister or something. It is one of teh worst songs I have ever heard and I hear it like 2 times a day at work.

 

I think you take any band, play them on the radio alot, create hype, make sheeple think other people like it, they will be big. It is a marketing machine that operates with exacting results. Just look at American Idol. Can you believe people buy these contrived CD's??

 

[Billster]

A perfect example of this is that new Linkin Park song. I think it is called 'Bleed it out'. I mean does anyone think thats a good song? It sounds like it was written by a 5th grader to annoy his sister or something. It is one of teh worst songs I have ever heard and I hear it like 2 times a day at work.

 

Hahahahahah!!!!+111!!!+1 Great rant.

 

A link just for you, Gifthorse: All Linkin Park songs are the same

[MILLO]

Hmm, ok... I could've sworn I read an essay... most likely I'm remembering wrong. Anyhow, point is his personna isn't set for marketing. Black gay rocker--hey maybe even he's a mestizo but even Halle Berry, whose mom (or dad, can't remember) is white is treated as "black" b/c of her dark skin. Anyway I do think there's still a lot of race involved in that and let's just say that apart from Hendrix, it seems like black rockers aren't kosher, let alone black gay rockers. I'm not accusing everyone of racism all of sudden, and definitely not anyone here... or maybe I am (still not anyone here, but the masses or the media, or "mass criteria"), hahaha... maybe racism in the purest sense, not violent of anything like that, but just something that doesn't appeal to all b/c it's just a wee bit too strange too digest, not musically, but image-wise. I'm sure most black people nowadays, who I'm guessing feel a lot of peer pressure to like hip-hop, would think it's pretty weird. Again, racism in its purest sense. From whatever little I could gather when they were around, it almost seemed the media treated Living Colour as a novelty. I know I'm getting into deep waters here, but feel free to discuss... really I don't mean any harm. As I mentioned, I admire them and I think they're awesome rock performers, but most of what I've heard of theirs doesn't GRAB me. And for the record: I love this dude's voice.

 

Gifthorse: you're absolutely right--they sounded 90's BEFORE the 90's. They had those bouncy beats everyone in the hard rock world would later play. I always thought that was cool.

 

I also believe that FOR THE MOST PART, money creates bands, but there's gotta be something about the really big ones that bring new waves anyways, something that's enticing to the masses. So, ultimately, I think it has to be a combiantion of factors, "stars that align" so to speak, the biggest of those factors being financial backing and strong marketing to create producitons that would appeal to the masses of the era, and then to actually create the propaganda for them.

 

Funny you bring up American Idol--I thought that Hicks dude sucked... he seemed to be slightly flat most of the time on the track I heard of his--a studio track! ...although I'm not sure I should give him props for not using autotune.

[Zuben]

I listened to the tracks a few days back and didn't give them any thought after. That is exactly how I feel now, no after thought. They sound like 5 older bands combined into one. Nothing fresh at all.

 

5 cents

 

Peace

[skipclone 1]

I wouldn`t blame it all on Pinnick`s suitability as a frontman-someone posted a vid a while back and Ritchie Blackmore was saying that Pinnick was offered the lead vocal spot for Deep Purple and said thanks but no thanks.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Paul Rodgers confirms Purple story

October 22nd, 2007

 

In a recent interview published in Houston Press blogs, Paul Rodgers confirmed the story of getting an offer to join Purple back in 1973:

 

HR: Any truth to the story that you were asked to be the lead singer of Deep Purple after Ian Gillan left?

 

PR: Yes. Free had played with Deep Purple in Australia and it was our very last show. I got along really well with [Purple] keyboardist Jon Lord and we exchanged numbers. Later, I got a call to [join], but I was forming Bad Company at the time, so it wasnt possible.

 

Well! Seems Mr. Blackmore has been busy asking guys to sing and getting turned down LOL ? I better check he might have asked my paperboy too LOL!!!

[JipThePeople]

Top ten, maybe top five best rock band of all time. Period. Beatles meets Hendrix meets something completely unique. Not sure why only musicians "get it" with King's X. They continue to put out quality releases - Ogre Tones was one of their best in years. Gretchen Goes to Nebraska is a masterpiece and should be in every guitarist's CD collection.

[skipclone 1]

I don`t disagree-my only disappointment is the degree to which Ty Tabor has gone the `no solos` route.

[MILLO]

I wouldn`t blame it all on Pinnick`s suitability as a frontman.

Me neither. Still, that sort of thing is a factor--makes you less or more marketable. So I don't think we were discussing "suitability", more like "marketability"... in fact if he'd like to form a band w/ me, hell yeah! ...I'm not necessarily a good songwriter, but as long as I do the writing, I'd love to have him in a band of mine, LOL!!!

 

All in all, I don't think they're extremely marketable to the masses, but I don't find Britney Spears or Linkin Park appealing to me either, so oh well... Seen this way, they COULD be bigger, if they only had the $$$ backing and public relations machinery on their side.

[skipclone 1]

Gee, bit of a time jump between those offers I think...still, yeah history`s full of smart career moves-let`s see, which band got this thread started again?

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Uhm... seeing as I started the whole gay black front man thing by my comments, I have to point out that I wasn't referring to the black dude. I was talking about the white guy singing on one of the vids, who looks like Tiny Tim with a double chin.

 

I think Lister thought I was referring to Pinnick, and because I had no idea which one Pinnick was, I didn't notice the error.

[skipclone 1]

Well,racism-and various isms-in the industry have come up before. I think a proper discussion of that should really be in another thread but-is there prejudice in the music biz? well, Hendrix, despite some of the `Who?` crowd floating around these days-had an absolutely massive influence on rock music by any standard and gave rise to an avalanche of direct imitators and near-imitators-not one of whom looked anything like him. Living Colour benefitted by the intervention of Mick Jagger but there was also Hootie and the Blowfish-boy, the stampede of the clone bands was just deafening, eh?

So is all of that lack due to racism? probably not. Is none of it attributable to racism-I don`t think so.

[Billster]

In my opinion, the lack of black folks in rock music is a cultural phenomenon more than a racial issue. There's a limited number of white people in contemporary R&B - Justin Timberlake, a few others. Even back to the motown era, where were the white performers working the genre the way Aretha Franklin or Ike & Tina Turner were?

 

Check out this MySpace page Music is music, for all people, not just a codified group in any direction.

[Fumblyfingers]

When one looks at all the highly successful African American artists in the biz today, it is hard to imagine that prejudice is having any sort of negative effect in the industry in any genre.

 

Well so I thought.

 

I was curious about who's who in black rock guitar today and my searching led me to Vernon Reid's Black Rock Coalition website where I read this.......

 

"The BRC opposes those racist and reactionary forces within the American music industry which undermine and purloin our musical legacy and deny Black artists the expressive freedom and economic rewards that our Caucasian counterparts enjoy as a matter of course"

 

I would love to have had 1/5th of the level of success and cool lifestyle Vernon Reid has enjoyed as a musician!

 

 

[Dr. Ellwood]

Sounds like something Al Sharpton or Jessie would have written. Same old ..same old stuff. How much expressive freedom is being withheld from the RAP community?

[Billster]

Can we stipulate that Vernon Reid is a really talented guy? I don't mean you have to like his style, just respect that he actually has a style.

 

Now, put aside the wholesale aversion to rap, and convince me that Vanilla Ice is even close to being as talented at rapping as Vernon is at playing guitar.

 

I mean, on what what basis is a guy like Vanilla Ice even given an opportunity?

[Xplorer]

You guys should check out God Forbid on You Tube. They are a kick ass mostly black band. The guitar players are brothers and have a great vibe, their style somewhere in between KSE and Pantera.

[MILLO]

In my opinion, the lack of black folks in rock music is a cultural phenomenon more than racial one.

 

Me being from another culture, I guess our definitions of racism are different. That's EXACTLY what I meant by "racism in the purest sense of the word"--that cultural divide. As soon as you start saying "white people should behave like this or like this music, black people should behave like that and like that music", you're defining culture by race. That's what I meant by "racism in its purest sense". Like I said, I'm not accusing anyone of burning crosses, or firing people out of their jobs b/c of their race, I'm talking about our "CULTURAL" perceptions or "constructions" of the identity of racial groups that essentially BELONG TO THE SAME MASS CULTURE.

 

This person in that myspace page says that a couple people were afraid to say out loud they liked James Taylor's music, because they were black--that's "racism in the purest sense of the word" right there, and "racism" as a phenomenon, not saying these guys were "racists"... although I think any black folk who thinks black people who aren't all about hip-hop aren't "black enough" are as racist as can be, in my honest opinon. That Dave Chapelle sketch where they measured who was "more black" actually made fun of that.

 

Now going back to the topic that brought forth this discussion: in order for a company to invest capital to produce and market a product, they need to feel there's the assurance of economic success. A gay black guy fronting a rock band nowadays does not provide it. Innovators Chuck Berry and Jimi Hendrix were black, so there's no excuse for rock not being part of "black culture"... but NOWADAYS, does the US public (and I mean everyone) associate rock w/ the racial group known as "African-Americans" or "US blacks"? Nope.

 

My point still is: I'm not in love w/ King's X music and much of it doesn't really grab my attention. However, I feel they're more special than most stuff that's popular in rock/hard rock nowadays, so really I don't think there's an excuse for them not being pushed forth by big labels, just like w/ pretty much many unknown bands out there. In fact, I believe their personna, specifically their frontman's, might make them not-very-easy-to-market. Not blaming their lack of larger widespread fame on their frontman, just saying it's most likely one of the many factors for lack or corporate backing.

[Fumblyfingers]

I used to run the lighting board at a club in Hollywood. There was an all black hard rock band that was so good that used to play there. These dudes rocked hard and were really talented. They were members of the BRC, I remember them pushing that....I wish I could remember the band name. I seem to remember they had brothers in it...siblings.

 

 

[Fumblyfingers]

A gay black guy fronting a rock band nowadays does not provide it..... ( the assurance of economic success).

 

I have to disagree with that statement Millo.

[Billster]

In my opinion, the lack of black folks in rock music is a cultural phenomenon more than racial one.

 

Me being from another culture, I guess our definitions of racism are different. That's EXACTLY what I meant by "racism in the purest sense of the word"--that cultural divide. As soon as you start saying "white people should behave like this or like this music, black people should behave like that and like that music", you're defining culture by race. That's what I meant by "racism in its purest sense". Like I said, I'm not accusing anyone of burning crosses, or firing people out of their jobs b/c of their race, I'm talking about our "CULTURAL" perceptions or "constructions" of the identity of racial groups that essentially BELONG TO THE SAME MASS CULTURE.

 

I think I follow what you are saying, and I agree. Your post is very thoughtful.

 

The idea that black people have to prefer black artists, etc. is silly. People can do whatever they want. But it's a problem when outside influences create pressure to do certain things.

 

What I see when my little kid is playing with his school friends is that they all just do "kid stuff", and the kids with Asian heritage, or the Arabic kids, or the black kids are not doing anything different. Later on the larger culture will start conditioning them with stereotypes, and the sub-cultures that form will reinforce those pressures. Unless us old farts teach them well.

[MILLO]

A gay black guy fronting a rock band nowadays does not provide it..... ( the assurance of economic success).

I have to disagree with that statement Millo.

No probs at all.

 

Do we know of any other African-American openly-gay guys fronting ROCK bands being played all the time on Clear Channel-owned stations? I don't.

[Xplorer]

I seem to remember they had brothers in it...siblings.

 

 

LOL, yea, I meant siblings.

[Fumblyfingers]

A gay black guy fronting a rock band nowadays does not provide it..... ( the assurance of economic success).

I have to disagree with that statement Millo.

No probs at all.

 

Do we know of any other African-American openly-gay guys fronting ROCK bands being played all the time on Clear Channel-owned stations? I don't.

 

But if an African American openly gay or obviously gay guy came to the fore who was unbelievably good and had a sound and lyric that appealed to the kids of today, do you really believe he would be denied access? I mean there were all kinds of rumors going around that Hendrix was gay....flambouyant etc etc .....you have to be really good and you have to caapture something with the listening audience...it is intangible....it is that something....star quality...... that just exists that seperates the really good from the huge stars.

 

Prince is a good example.....not gay but certainly flambouyant and controversial....but an excellent musician and performer. Was he denied access?

 

[MILLO]

1)Prince is not a hard-rocker.

 

2)You're talking about exceptionally-talented people; that's PRECISELY my point. Do you think Linkin Park (a band that was mentioned earlier in this thread and it seemed some didn't think that much of them) is exceptionally good? They're still shoved down our throats.

 

3)One thing is to actively DENY someone access to stardom, which I don't think is the case here, and another is to NOT back up or make a plan for it. It seems this band was given a chance before (early-mid 90's, when arguably being this "unconventional" was probably more "fashionable") anyways.

 

4) Like I said before, I don't think that is the reason why they're not filling up stadiums, but possibly one of many factors of why they're not shoved on our faces. I'm sorry if at some point I made it seemed it was just b/c of that, and I can see I probably did not express myself well.

 

...Any business venture carries a risk. Some risky ventures are wildly succesful maybe b/c of quality or b/c of real artistic appeal or b/c image appeal, or b/c of "good timing, fashion- or trend-wise". Some aren't. Many ventures that may seem virtually "riskless" might end up failing badly, or not taking off at all. But most of the time it's all about MINIMIZING risks. I think, seeing how the industry works, that it is RISKIER to back up someone like Pinnick than to back up Britney Spears, Ashlee Simpson, or Jay-Z. ...or Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg or Brad Paisley or Coldplay or Mute Math or Radiohead or Metallica or Maxim Vengerov or etc, etc, etc...

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

And of course, there's that pesky way that some of us just plain didn't like the band's songs without even knowing who Neil Pinnick is.

 

Hypothetically, you could have a succesful gay black front-man (hey, does Little Richard count?) but if he was fronting King's X, I still wouldn't buy the records, simply because I don't like the band.

[Billster]

But most of the time it's all about MINIMIZING risks. I think, seeing how the industry works, that it is RISKIER to back up someone like Pinnick than to back up Britney Spears, Ashlee Simpson, or Jay-Z. ...or Nadja Salerno-Sonnenberg or Brad Paisley or Coldplay or Mute Math or Radiohead or Metallica or Maxim Vengerov or etc, etc, etc...

 

Totally agree. If somebody that looked like the guys in Radiohead came out and made music that sounded like Britney Spears, it would either be a novelty or quickly dismissed for reasons that have nothing to do with the music. And IMO the exceptions prove the rule in this case.

[MILLO]

And of course, there's that pesky way that some of us just plain didn't like the band's songs without even knowing who Neil Pinnick is.

 

Hypothetically, you could have a succesful gay black front-man (hey, does Little Richard count?) but if he was fronting King's X, I still wouldn't buy the records, simply because I don't like the band.

hahaha ...exactly

[The Bear Jew]

Doug. His name is Doug Pinnick.

[Eric Iverson]

The computer at work doesn't allow me to listen to you guys' attachments.. probably a good thing, since I have a lot of work to do!

 

Re: gay black lead singer, etc. etc. I don't really care about all that stuff. I just want to hear the music!

 

This may not be true of the public at large though. I often think that the music in itself is the LAST thing they care about!