Finding a pick off the floor - best thing this week!

[Caevan O’Shite]

Good for tasty licks, though!

[Rhino Madness]

Originally posted by 'Need a Name 4 St Patty's' O'Shite:

I was going to have "Tuskbuffer" make me some of those, and some Big Stubby clones, out of fossilized Mammoth ivory, but then he sort of disapeared... ??

Pretty OT but here it goes anyway...

 

FWIW, advertized fossilized Mammoth ivory is in most cases illegally obtained elephant ivory.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Rhino Madness:

Originally posted by 'Need a Name 4 St Patty's' O'Shite:

I was going to have "Tuskbuffer" make me some of those, and some Big Stubby clones, out of fossilized Mammoth ivory, but then he sort of disapeared... ??

Pretty OT but here it goes anyway...

 

FWIW, advertized fossilized Mammoth ivory is in most cases illegally obtained elephant ivory.

No, not really off topic at all; and that's good to bear in mind, to be forewarned and careful, at the very least!

 

I certainly wouldn't want to contribute to ivory poaching by even a small amount, even unknowingly!

 

Since we're on the topic, Rhino, any idea how to best know or verify the legitimacey of claimed fossil-ivory stock or products?

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Rhino Madness:

Originally posted by 'Need a Name 4 St Patty's' O'Shite:

I was going to have "Tuskbuffer" make me some of those, and some Big Stubby clones, out of fossilized Mammoth ivory, but then he sort of disapeared... ??

Pretty OT but here it goes anyway...

 

FWIW, advertized fossilized Mammoth ivory is in most cases illegally obtained elephant ivory.

That would explain the demise of Tuskbuffer's business. All I ever found was his sign-off note that didn't really explain what happened.

[EmptinesOf Youth]

If i remember correctly he was using it from an old pianos keys made of ivory

[Rhino Madness]

Originally posted by 'Need a Name 4 St Patty's' O'Shite:

Since we're on the topic, Rhino, any idea how to best know or verify the legitimacey of claimed fossil-ivory stock or products?

Here's the deal: thousands-of-years-old mammoth ivory can be legally traded under any form; elephant ivory trade has been banned worldwide (or in most countries under the CITES convention) since the early 70s.

 

From an ivory evaluation specialist I know: Elephant ivory and mammoth ivory are fairly indistinguishable; age can be estimated by an experienced eye but counterfeiters are getting better and better at reproducing any and every little hint we are looking for by applying various treatments to newer ivory or even plastic in some case.

 

AFAIK (but it's only IMHO), unless the sum of money asked is exhorbitant, we are not dealing with genuine mammoth ivory.

[Braxat]

Originally posted by KPB:

Originally posted by skipclone 1:

Originally posted by Braxat:

a 10 dollar pick ? wow Oo

ten dollars and up, and definitely worth it.

I could never own a pick that costs that much. I notoriously lose them. They end up in the wash, under the couch, wherever.

i EAT my picks ...well chew them as if they were bubblegum, ill get tired of playing with them and they go into my lips while i play with my fingers and then they gradually make their way to below my teeth and then well one thing leads to another...

 

its either that or they end up in the laundry or even worst, i start randomly HITTING the strings and they melt....

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Rhino Madness:

Originally posted by 'Need a Name 4 St Patty's' O'Shite:

Since we're on the topic, Rhino, any idea how to best know or verify the legitimacey of claimed fossil-ivory stock or products?

Here's the deal: thousands-of-years-old mammoth ivory can be legally traded under any form; elephant ivory trade has been banned worldwide (or in most countries under the CITES convention) since the early 70s.

 

From an ivory evaluation specialist I know: Elephant ivory and mammoth ivory are fairly indistinguishable; age can be estimated by an experienced eye but counterfeiters are getting better and better at reproducing any and every little hint we are looking for by applying various treatments to newer ivory or even plastic in some case.

 

AFAIK (but it's only IMHO), unless the sum of money asked is exhorbitant, we are not dealing with genuine mammoth ivory.

O.K., that much I either knew, or guessed, for the most part. What I was hoping to find out about was any sort of official certification or listing or anything along those lines, similar to the way reputable luthiers and lumber-suppliers can and do follow a protocol concerning the legitimate procurement and distribution of legal Brazilian rosewood, for example... Follow me? Or am I making sense?

 

As for Tuskbuffer, I'd like to think that he was NOT knowingly involved in anything shady or unethical, but, the unfortunate truth of the matter is, I just don't know... the surrounding circumstances are both vague and suggestive.

[EmptinesOf Youth]

caevan you missed my post. Im pretty sure he made it from old piano keys that were made of ivory

[Rhino Madness]

Originally posted by 'Need a Name 4 St Patty's' O'Shite:

O.K., that much I either knew, or guessed, for the most part. What I was hoping to find out about was any sort of official certification or listing or anything along those lines, similar to the way reputable luthiers and lumber-suppliers can and do follow a protocol concerning the legitimate procurement and distribution of legal Brazilian rosewood, for example... Follow me? Or am I making sense?

 

As for Tuskbuffer, I'd like to think that he was NOT knowingly involved in anything shady or unethical, but, the unfortunate truth of the matter is, I just don't know... the surrounding circumstances are both vague and suggestive.

There is unfortunately no such offical or otherwise standardized document (unless you can see a copy of the CITES permit used to import the raw material or finished product).

 

I am in no way trying to blame Tuskbuffer for anything (I am not familiar at all with the company and its products). Even if he obtained his raw material from overseas, it is a lot more likely that the provider of goods would have been of bad will.

 

And if he obtained the raw material from a piano, it would have been legal to sell it only if the ivory were antique (defined by US Law as being at least 100 years old). Otherwise, it might be legal to own it but not to enter it in commerce (the US law is more complex than that on the issue but that is the geist of it).

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Bullet Train to Osaka:

caevan you missed my post. Im pretty sure he made it from old piano keys that were made of ivory

Oh, you weren't who I was typing at, nor that exactly the subject.

 

But, without searching and reading some old posts, I beloeve that it was in fact someone else (other than Tuskbuffer) who was using old piano keys; I believe that it was an individual who was primarily interested in making some things for himself out of old ivory piano-keys (I think it was our man in Boston, Compact Diss, now that I think about it). And if it's just for yourself and not for commerce, whether or not it's an antique by law really doesn't apply much.

 

Besides, that's just "old" ivory, already harvested and fashioned into a product, being recycled, not actual fossil ivory (which, in turn, may or may not have undergone the effects of a true fossilization process).

 

True fossil ivory is that left in the remains of either extinct species or ice-age or older relatives of living species; the best of it has gained some mineral content, etc., via actual fossilozation, though I'm sure that plenty of it has been well preserved and is relatively the same as when it was being flashed around by some pimpin' Mammoth or Narwhale...

[EmptinesOf Youth]

yea your probably right, i just remember reading it and didnt think thered be that many topics about ivory...oops

[Rhino Madness]

Originally posted by 'Need a Name 4 St Patty's' O'Shite:

Oh, you weren't who I was typing at, nor that exactly the subject.

That's why I was afraid my intervention would veer kind of OT

 

I was once involved in a project in close collaboration with Federal Fish and Wildlife inspectors on this subject and I know how many hoops faithful and honest merchants have to jump through in order to stay on the legal side. Because of that, it is very frustrating for me to see individuals getting off so easily by only pretending that they are offering mammoth ivory.

 

I never intended to point fingers at anyone here. So let's get back on "topick"!

 

I have never had a chance to experience the tone and feel of an ivory pick.

[Caevan O’Shite]

I have a pick that was made by Tuskbuffer, that someone else gifted me with.

 

(I would honestly love to have someone who would know tell me if it's ivory, fossil ivory, or horn or even plastic... )

 

I generally play fingerstyle, and this particular pick doesn't seem like the best example of what a fossil-ivory pick mayhap could be... so, it's seen very little use by me. I keep it as a keep-sake gift from a good friend, who put some wear 'n' tear on it...

 

Now, it's kinda thin, pretty much like a "normal", run-of-the-mill pick. I think that to reap the benefits of some good fossil-ivory for a pick, you'd really have to be working with a heavier, more sculpted design along the lines of a Dunlop "Stubby" type or Dugain or such.

[Guitarzan]

i love getting new picks of different materials.

i had a rosewood pick and i decided to place it in a easy to remember and safe place.....i forgot where i put it.

i have also used steel, those are brutal on strings.

i went through a Dava phase and still have a pile of those. Dunlop made some cool clear picks in the stubby style, but when you set the "invisible" pick down ..good luck finding it.

[EmptinesOf Youth]

Hey skip, if you ever check back to this, how long do those dugain' last?

[Dave da Dude]

Originally posted by Picker:

I've been thinking about chucking picks altogether, in favor of just fingers. It's hard to argue with results like Jeff Beck gets...

I didn't know that!

 

... me too ... no pick that is, not unarguable results

[Dave da Dude]

Caevan said,

I have a pick that was made by Tuskbuffer, that someone else gifted me with.

 

(I would honestly love to have someone who would know tell me if it's ivory, fossil ivory, or horn or even plastic... )

It's Wolly Mammoth, legally harvested (no laws against it anywhere).

 

btw, where is TuskBuffer? Anybody know?

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Dave da Dude:

Caevan said,

I have a pick that was made by Tuskbuffer, that someone else gifted me with.

 

(I would honestly love to have someone who would know tell me if it's ivory, fossil ivory, or horn or even plastic... )

It's Wolly Mammoth, legally harvested (no laws against it anywhere).

 

btw, where is TuskBuffer? Anybody know?

Hey, Dave! Long-time, no-see!

 

Yeah, I know it's supposed to be fossil-ivory, from a Wooly Mammoth. But, the one that I have isn't 100% convincing; maybe it's just an odd piece, and not representative of much of this material on-average. But its appearance and feel, not to mention Tusk's sudden unexplained dropping-out from any and all on-line existance other than old archived posts (as far as I can find), leaves me wonderin'...

[skipclone 1]

Originally posted by NaotaForHonesty:

Hey skip, if you ever check back to this, how long do those dugain' last?

I tend to rotate among a few favorites so I couldn`t say if you use one intensely, but I haven`t seen any noticable wear on any of mine. I suppose as a rule the wood ones would wear fastest. The Dugain shape is the same for all picks-it`s dense and heavy around the edges, with depressions on either side for fingers. It`s round on the obverse side, trench-like on the reverse. It would take a while to wear even the wood ones down but if you like a thin pick this is not your maker.

[skipclone 1]

As for the mammoth ivory, it seems to me like the price would be exhorbitant no matter what the source, assuming it`s genuine. Africa`s not exactly around the corner, and people aren`t just popping out to the cornfield to dig up a woolly mammoth either. People in Asia have used elephant ivory for name stamps for ages, but they are difficult (not impossible) to find now. About six years ago some company brought an acoustic guitar with a solid ivory fretboard to a music fair in Tokyo. I think Rhino could confirm this but there was a one-time sale of impounded ivory that was filling up the warehouses a few years ago, it could be that some of that is turning up as `fossil` ivory. I would imagine that if Tusker found out about his raw material not being what he thought it was, it would be a choice between telling people about it and facing angry demands for refunds, or leaving them with blatantly illegal products as well as guilty consciences. However I must point out that if that explains his disappearance, it doesn`t explain why Lark In The Morning (a reputable music instrument dealer), still has fossil ivory picks available in its catalog. Nor what they are doing on store shelves. If it turns out they are forgeries, either via poaching or false material, that`s one hell of a blowup waiting to happen.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

Yeah, I know it's supposed to be fossil-ivory, from a Wooly Mammoth.

And we're so absolutely snowed under with fossilized wooly mammoth tusks that we might as well make guitar picks out of them?

 

Doesn't ring true somehow. You'd need a lot of tusks before the demand from all the world's museums, schools, collectors, gun shops and so on was satisfied and people decided to shave the tusks down into guitar picks.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Kramer Ferrington III.:

Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

Yeah, I know it's supposed to be fossil-ivory, from a Wooly Mammoth.

And we're so absolutely snowed under with fossilized wooly mammoth tusks that we might as well make guitar picks out of them?

 

Doesn't ring true somehow. You'd need a lot of tusks before the demand from all the world's museums, schools, collectors, gun shops and so on was satisfied and people decided to shave the tusks down into guitar picks.

I don't know the details or any statistical info, but there has in fact been fossil-ivory as raw-material on the market for a while now. I'd assume that there are chunks found that would have little or no appeal for display in museums, pieces that just look like... pieces, not whole tusks. And Mammoths, Mastadons, and other elephant-like animals aren't the only sources of fossil-ivory, there are long-dead walruses and narwhales too, for example. (I know that there are living examples of the above, but there have been a lot of 'em to come and go over the millenia, as well.

 

And for the small items we're talking about here, such as bridge-saddles, bridge-pins, nuts, and picks, a chunk of a tusk or two goes a long, looong ways!!

[Braxat]

i want an ivory pick !!!

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

I'd assume that there are chunks found that would have little or no appeal for display in museums, pieces that just look like... pieces, not whole tusks.

Well... ok. You probably have a point there. You usually do.

[Tone Taster]

What's the deal with turtle shells for picks? I see an awful lot of 'em dead on the side of the road. Is it worth gouging the guts out and grindin' the shells down?

 

Man, I could have some killer picks and turtle soup for days!

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Kramer Ferrington III.:

Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

I'd assume that there are chunks found that would have little or no appeal for display in museums, pieces that just look like... pieces, not whole tusks.

Well... ok. You probably have a point there. You usually do.

Man, I'm sincerely sorry if I come off like an overbearing, argumentative jerk; it's just my nature to kick the ball around, if you will...

 

If that's not even remotely what you were getting at, disregard this transmission!

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

If that's not even remotely what you were getting at, disregard this transmission!

Well, I'll disragard it immediately after I tell you I'm disregarding it. I was quite sincere in what I posted.

 

You're probably right: I was imagining whole mammoth tusks being chipped into picks and it didn't occur to me that there must be lots of shapeless pieces of fossil ivory lying around which are completely useless for display purposes.

 

Thanks for the insight.

[Braxat]

Originally posted by YzeCounsel:

What's the deal with turtle shells for picks? I see an awful lot of 'em dead on the side of the road. Is it worth gouging the guts out and grindin' the shells down?

 

Man, I could have some killer picks and turtle soup for days!

hmmm that wouldnt actuallt be a bad idea....

[Rhino Madness]

OK, here are a few clarifications Id like to bring.

 

Yes, mammoth ivory does exist and its commerce is legal. However, most claimed mammoth ivory is in fact mislabeled elephant ivory to try and get around the law. Moreover, most of the ivory imported to the US is done without filing the legal paperwork (yes, that makes it illegal, whether done knowingly or not).

 

Caevan: you can try and see if you can identify and measure the Schreger angles on your pick specimen. I suspect that since the pick is such a small object, it might be difficult to get a good cross-sectional view (depending on the tusk area the pick was carved from).

 

Some African countries sit on tons (yes, tons) of already harvested elephant ivory. So why dont they sell it since the elephants are already dead? Its been observed and quantified that allowing any elephant ivory trade increases poaching.

 

As to Skipclones comment, there has in fact been talk about letting a few African countries sell a limited amount of their ivory stockpile but I dont believe it has actually occurred (for fear of increased poaching). However, AFAIK the US would still not allow its importation here.

 

Companies come and go all the time for many reasons; without more info, I would not infer anything about any company that used to make and/or market ivory picks.

 

If you already have an ivory pick (whether from mammoth or not), there is not much that can be done about it. Use it for what (you think) it is. If you dont have one now and your purpose in life is to discover the tone of such material in a pick, I suggest the use of meditation for as long as it takes for you to find a more worthwhile cause.

 

For people searching the web on ivory commerce, I feel I should put up this disclaimer: I am NOT an authority on the subject. If you intend on having any part in any ivory trade, I highly recommend that you consult the CITES authority in your country (in the US, that would be the Fish and Wildlife Sevice federal agency). If your country does not subscribe to the CITES convention, then listen to your conscience.

 

And in any case, please realize that the horn of a rhino is NOT an adequate alternative material to ivory (and Im only half joking here).