Re: Improvisation. Do you take risks?

[Dr. Ellwood]

Gruppi, why is it that you wouldn't make the same comment to Miro? about his comments. I can understand why you would not appreciate my comments and I did not enjoy making them at all but I also do not agree with Miro's comments. On the jamming can you imagine that being a player as long as I have, that I have not jammed in a improv setting, only a million times, please! I just don't have the time to play much in non-commercial situation, it's not that I don't enjoy it, it's a matter of time that's all. I hope you understand. My personal opinion is that anything that keeps guys playing is a great thing!

[pauldil]

The great players can improvise so well because they have a large inventory of ideas over a given situation and can call on those ideas at will and alter them as needed. Even when going outside the comfort zone, there's a trail of breadcrumbs they can follow back home. Playing random notes is not improvising. You've really got to hear what you're doing. IMHO, one needs to establish a good vocabulary before they can truly "improvise". And that's not just a vocabulary of note choices, but of attack, dynamics, etc. All the notes have already been discovered. It becomes a matter of mixing and matching ideas to come up with new ones.

 

Paul

[Dr. Ellwood]

I think anyone that thinks during a improv. solo that they are not drawing on other people's work that they have heard is kidding themselves. Anyone that has been playing for along time does, no matter if they are concious of it or not. When we use our theory or scale work to thread elements together we are drawing on patterns that have been done and heard before. There is nothing new under the sun. The only way to be original completely would be if you have never heard anyone else's material ever.

[Hardtail]

Lee,

 

The video of Scofield I mentioned basically hits what you've stated.

 

Improv to Scofield is putting together an on the spot composition based on tools that you already possess. He goes in to scales (obviously the biggest tool), playing interval patterns of those scales (3rds, 4ths,... etc). Also, he discusses coping licks from instrumentalists outside of the guitar.

 

But yes... what he states about improvising is basically what you state.

 

Hey, when John Scofield talks about improvising... I listen!

[Dr. Ellwood]

KPB, you and me both man!!!

[Hardtail]

pauldil stated the same thing.

 

Then again... I believe that pauldil is really Scofield and is not telling us.

[Gifthorse]

When I am on my game playing my best I think I cab hear melodies in my head before I play them.

 

Other times when I am not so inspired I resort to patterns and tools.

[pauldil]

Originally posted by KPB:

pauldil stated the same thing.

 

Then again... I believe that pauldil is really Scofield and is not telling us.

How did you figure it out?

 

Actually, I attended a seminar he gave in Chicago several years ago and actaully got the chance to play with him. We did "All the things you are". He was very nice afterwards and did not even tell me to keep my day job. A few years later, I ran into him in Winston-Salem NC at an IHOP, but I was too much of a wuss to go talk to him.

 

I'll have to get that tape you're talking about.

 

Paul

[Hardtail]

pauldil,

 

I'll give you a rundown of what's on it. It's about $40.00 for a VHS tape.

 

For each scale he discusses, he has a mystery guitar player in the background (you never see him) play an appropriate chord and Scofield blows through it. This alone is worth the price. The guy's phrasing is magic.

 

Scales/techniques discussed:

1. All modes of the major scale

2. Melodic Minor scale broken up into modes

 

* I'm at the point right now of working on the melodic minor scale (went through the major scale). The rest (excepting pentatonic scales) I haven't really given study to yet (though I do know how they're structured).

 

The rest in no particular order

3. Diminished scale

4. Augmented/wholetone scale

 

5. Pentatonic scale

6. Chromatic Scales (using passing tones).

 

He gives mention to the harmonic minor but doesn't discuss it further.

 

Throughout the video, he gives hints/tips on how to use these scales to create interesting melodies from them, staying away from the boring ascending/descending patterns.

 

Also, there's a lot of arpeggiation in the examples he plays but he never discusses arpeggios. That's good enough for me because I don't need lessons on arpeggios but rather need examples of how they can be combined within the scalar melodies. For me, unconciously, they're still 2 disconnected techniques. It's helpful to see how Scofield meshes them together.

 

Hope this helps.

[Gruupi]

Elwood, I must have missed that Miro's post was an attack on you? If it was then you have a right to defend yourself, but it must be an inside thing. I just assumed he was making a general statement.

 

I can certainly see that if you are gigging enough that you wouldn't have as much time for jamming. That was sometimes a conflict in some of my past cover bands in that if I didn't get to jam enough I got bored really fast. Playing 3 sets of cover music got old to me. I never was in it for the commercial aspect and even though I enjoy praise and adulation as much as the next guy, I still am always in it for personal musical gratification more than anything else.

 

At this point in my life I would rather play in the basement than in a bar band, not saying I wouldn't do both, but jamming is just to much fun to give up. Playing to drunks in a bar till 2 AM isn't always fun. It has its moments but becomes more like work if you do it more than a couple weekends a month.

 

I guess I shouldn't single Elwood out so much hehe, but his motivations always seem so different than mine. Deep down we both love the music though, just have different aspects of what we get out of it I suppose.

[Darklava]

Stacato pacato...lets put it this way the band

takes a risk everytime i plug in

[Darklava]

At this point in my life I would rather play in the basement than in a bar band, not saying I wouldn't do both, but jamming is just to much fun to give up. Playing to drunks in a bar till 2 AM isn't always fun. It has its moments but becomes more like work if you do it more than a couple weekends a month.

Right now I jam in the basement with a great drummer and bass player,and there is nothing like the high of feeding off each others spirits

and coming up with songs,but I have a chance to

join a band with a good singer and bass player.

drummer? eh!anyway it's the cover thing and like you said no jammin.Do I want to give that up?

Man thats a tuff choice I have to make right now.

The good thing about the cover thing I'll be able

to buy more gear and play live....but thats about it.

[I I mjrn]

I&I think it's fair game that we all use some individual standard things both 2 rescue ideas & 2 try 2 revitalize things N Rutville.

 

Rather than list what I&I might have going personally as problems or etitudinal ploys, I'd like 2 point out this as a subject worth further thought, mayB

Originally posted by Billster:

Scott Henderson and John Scofield have a way of playing in the pocket to where the notes don't particularly matter, the groove carries the thing right through the "out" notes and back "in" again.

 

I just got to thinking a little because there are certain phrases everyone has that just fall under their fingers and fill space without respecting the surroundings or the destination. Slowing down the thought process a little bit, and actually letting the music play you is a good challenge.

Bsides the melodic constructs that a R commonplace N varied musical climes, there's 2 more aspects, the rhythmic element of phrasing 4 style & the separate idiomatic traits of ensemble Nstuments.

I&I suggest rhythm as a saving grace 4 improv since it deliverates us from "wrong notitude" worries if we can ring the right cadences.

 

I&I also wonder lately if the riskiest thing one can do is deliberately sign up for something that requires playing outside Ur strengths.

How long's it been since U (or mayB...U or even me) played N a setting that not only encouraged free soloing mayB but where there was a new requirement on U 2 B a different player.

Recently there were some Frank Zappa threads here.

T'inking about old Frank, one of the things that seemed 2 separate him from a lot of somewhat similar guitarists was that he almost never, heck, mayB never once he was established, played N situations that weren't under his control.

Demanding music & he did what he could 2 meet the same standards he set 4 his band but what would he have done if he'd done if he'd let himself just B the guitarist ? MayB something better sometimes, even than what he thought of the possibilitease?

 

 

That's my offering: find someone who's gonna make U play differently.

[pauldil]

KPB, thanks for that rundown of the Scofield tape . Is it the "John Scofield:Jazz Funk Guitar" one? I just saw a DVD on Amazon for $26 that combines 2 of his previouly released lesson tapes.

 

Paul

[Hardtail]

This is called "John Scofield - On Improvisation" and was release in '89 (he's noticeably younger in this video). As far as I know, he doesn't have it on DVD which is a shame becauce with the VHS I have to rewind/fast forward to where I want to go.

 

What you're talking about is probably is strictly his Jazz Funk Guitar stuff. I know nothing about that.

 

If I can find a picture of what the VHS tape cover looks like, I'll post it.

[Hardtail]

Here it is:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/jazz_guitar_e_store_john_scofield.html#shop

[Hardtail]

Paul,

 

Maybe you could help me? Do you know of any video/DVD that could help me with my harmony? Something to supplement my forever studies in Ted Greene's book would be cool.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Gruupi:

Elwood, I must have missed that Miro's post was an attack on you? If it was then you have a right to defend yourself, but it must be an inside thing. I just assumed he was making a general statement.

 

I can certainly see that if you are gigging enough that you wouldn't have as much time for jamming. That was sometimes a conflict in some of my past cover bands in that if I didn't get to jam enough I got bored really fast. Playing 3 sets of cover music got old to me. I never was in it for the commercial aspect and even though I enjoy praise and adulation as much as the next guy, I still am always in it for personal musical gratification more than anything else.

 

At this point in my life I would rather play in the basement than in a bar band, not saying I wouldn't do both, but jamming is just to much fun to give up. Playing to drunks in a bar till 2 AM isn't always fun. It has its moments but becomes more like work if you do it more than a couple weekends a month.

 

I guess I shouldn't single Elwood out so much hehe, but his motivations always seem so different than mine. Deep down we both love the music though, just have different aspects of what we get out of it I suppose.

Yes Jamming is great fun! I think we all can agree to that and every time I get a chance to do it I love it. I know for sure that if I was not playing gigs all the time I would jam allot, so I certainly don't want to attack people that do. There is a definite rift between SOME guys on here caused by guys that gig professionally and writers of original material and guys that are not interested in playing live for audiences. I really encourage guys to play live for a audience occasionally though, in fact there is a new post on here about the positive aspects of live playing. I don't know but maybe there should be a separate forum for cover gigging musicians, writers, jammers? To be honest most of the time all three categories of players get along pretty well. I decided along time ago to be a cover guitar player, mostly it's because I lack the talent or interest to write original music. I keep getting comments about the audiences we play too being a bunch of drunks. Yes sometimes the crowd does get drunk but the audiences that the Stones, Beatles, SRV's etc. play too get drunk too? Most of the time our audiences are appreciative of the music and other very fine musicians are appreciative of it too. The comments from other musicians about our playing are the ones that we cherish the most.

[Tone Taster]

Taking risks has gotten me canned or many an evil eye from bandleaders who suffer the IMAGINED fear of losing their job or from vocalists who think you are supposed to be a kare-hokey machine.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Caputo:

Taking risks has gotten me canned or many an evil eye from bandleaders who suffer the IMAGINED fear of losing their job or from vocalists who think you are supposed to be a kare-hokey machine.

Ok Cap... more specifics here pleezzze... are you saying that you take chances with your solos within the context of the rehearsed arrangement? OR take chances going away from the arrangement that the rest of the band understands to be what will happen? Just trying to get a handle on how and why you get nasty looks?

[Tone Taster]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Originally posted by Caputo:

Taking risks has gotten me canned or many an evil eye from bandleaders who suffer the IMAGINED fear of losing their job or from vocalists who think you are supposed to be a kare-hokey machine.

Ok Cap... more specifics here pleezzze... are you saying that you take chances with your solos within the context of the rehearsed arrangement? OR take chances going away from the arrangement that the rest of the band understands to be what will happen? Just trying to get a handle on how and why you get nasty looks?

I have taken voicings, comping patterns, etc. . . "out of the box" before both live and at rehearsal. I have also gone for extended solo breaks in situations where I truly believe the vibe warranted it. Although i wouldn't force the issue on every song every night, it just seems like the bandleader is suffering from an imagined fear that the venue manager is going to fire the band because I played a different voicing, comping pattern, extended solo break. I have yet to hear of a venue manger firing a band on those grounds.

 

It''s 95% FICTION/FEAR land on behalf of cats that insist on being a living breathing karaoke machine never once considering advancing music to another level in any particular moment. I've done the cover scene and the jam thing and I like both, but if I am going to have to play with cats who don't want to take chances with music, then I will forego the situation. This is one reason why I have relegated myself to the instruction field and composition.

 

I'M SICK OF IT, MAN !!!!. At this juncture the cookie cut out karaoke band thing is just not my cup of tea right now.

 

I WANNA PLAY!!!!

[pauldil]

Originally posted by KPB:

Paul,

 

Maybe you could help me? Do you know of any video/DVD that could help me with my harmony? Something to supplement my forever studies in Ted Greene's book would be cool.

You know, I haven't really used video lessons, although I did just get Joe Diorio's 'Solo Guitar Concepts' for my birthday last week. But he goes more into general solo guitar devices rather than specific harmonic concepts. Sorry I'm not more help.

 

Paul

[Billster]

Originally posted by pauldil:

IMHO, one needs to establish a good vocabulary before they can truly "improvise". And that's not just a vocabulary of note choices, but of attack, dynamics, etc.

 

Paul

That's a really important point, that vocabulary includes more than notes. It's dynamics and phrasing techniques like legato/staccato, etc.

 

I saw Scofield give a seminar at Berklee back in the mid 80's, and one of the folks asking quesions (a trad jazz guy) was sort of giving him crap about playing loud, using distortion and effects. Scofield's answer was that volume, tone and special effects are just other techniques you bring to express the music, in addition to the note choices.

 

Elwood/Gruupi - take it to PM's please

[I I mjrn]

Vocabulary's more than even that, 2 carry on the language meta4.

It's not just the component parts of speech but familiarity with how they B used in various dialects, etc.

 

There's a recent thread "G form Impanema" where somebody's looking 4 a record of that tune so they can get some ideas B4 their gig this weekend (& O yeah, can U tip 'em on a good version of "Summertime"!). Sounds 2 me like someone forgot 2 doo their homework!

"Try listenin' the song!" I&I wanted so badly 2 scream throught the machine.

 

There's somebody caught 4 ideas & their way of avoiding risk is to try & learn somebody else's lines at the last minute. U may wanna B generous & allow as they may get Xposed 2 a new idea. I&I kinda doubt they can achieve a lotta digestion of any significant idea in just a couple days, though & would B plain better served by paying some attention 2 the tune than trying 2 score some conceptual hot tips that they might not remember correctly anyhow.

 

I&I see something here N all that which we also hear 2 much.

That B: the search 4 training sources which will transfer to 1 a way of playing that will make U a more distinctive player.

 

Learning can come from many sources & it's essential 2 get cues, tips & such but there's no cure-all 2 harmony, chord-comping, soloing, or elewhat'ya got problems.

The main raisin B-ing that alla that gonna doo is put ya N touch with channeling the author of the approach, not the 1 True Spirit of Musica.

Can't never get "new" by copying what so&so did "then". U can learn something new 4 U but won't B new 2 whoever heard Ur source.

We all gotta suffer through that.

 

Larger issue is that 2 often there's a plug-in-2-fit approach that comes when trying ideas piecemeal. Ted Greene's books were great but there's miles 'tween loading up snapshots of new chord shapes & seeing/hearing the best places 2 slip 'em N. Secrets like that don't come falling outta the pages of concept books or the box of some how-2 video.

That can only B determined by Xperimentation, whether alone or groups...& not just Xperimentalizing but doing so N a systematic approach where U test each tweak & variation just like U was tryin' t'write a poem just the best U ever could.

Watch a painter create. They'll often have twennyleven versions of the "same" image going. Even photographers (can't get much more N the moment than them!) practice elements of shots & variations.

 

Here's a question 2 ignore: Do U take foolhardy risks or do U try 2 set Urself up 4 success by reconnoitering the territory ?

Bonus: what deep difference doo U find Btween practice alone & with others ?

[Billster]

Originally posted by I & I mjrn:

Here's a question 2 ignore: Do U take foolhardy risks or do U try 2 set Urself up 4 success by reconnoitering the territory ?

Oh, as a writer, I definitely make my life as an improviser easy I know what context is going to be easy for me to be free in, because I know those streets like the back of my hand, as compared to where I'm going to sound lost because I don't know those avenues.

 

Practicing, like studying road maps.

 

Originally posted by I & I mjrn:

Bonus: what deep difference doo U find Btween practice alone & with others ?

Practicing alone is about studying road maps, like I said above.

 

Practicing with others is about interaction, becoming comfortable with the decisions your cohorts make, and trusting them to know some alternate routes as well as you.

[I I mjrn]

Guess some took "question 2 ignore" 2 seriously!

 

There's a very good, if brief, suggestion on this topic N the March Guitar Player.

Check out the Russell Malone story.

 

Personally I think playing with others can B as exploratory as playing alone...& in some cases it's the only way 2 effectively test drive some concepts, or at least Ur mental reflexes.

Actually, as I&I typed that I realized that "relex" is exactly the wrong approach 2 dealing with what I mean. Something more akin 2 what sensei training is meant 2 institite is what I meant: accelerated but fully conscious, not automatic, responses.

[Eric Iverson]

Re: playing with others can be as exploratory as playing alone... sorry for the NORMAL SPELLING!

 

I heartily agree!

 

But to do that you have to find an exploratory counterpart, and not all people are!

 

That doesn't mean they are good are what they DO!