Re: Improvisation. Do you take risks?

[Billster]

Be honest. Time for some rut-busting.

 

Do you have a bunch of phrases that you fall back on? Or do you chase melodies to the ends of the earth, with no sure way back to the tonic?

 

Do you challenge yourself by limiting your notes/string selection/fret range? Ever impose a speed limit?

 

Fall back on the same lead tones, or try a solo in a different tone (clean/tinny/too bassy/whatever)?

 

Go legato only or stacatto only this time?

 

Always with the single notes, or force yourself into chord/double stop mode?

 

Ever try a call and response with yourself and two different approaches - i.e. two bars single note/two bars chordal/etc.

 

Gotta have precise notes, or try muted rhythmic accents as the focus of the solo?

 

Ever try noises/whammybar/special effect mayhem as an exclusive method for a solo?

[Dr. Ellwood]

No, I stay with the same approach that the recorded guitar player did on our covers. I do allot of improvision within a blues context however. I have to really watch out so I don't over play in the blues group.

[LPCustom]

I have on occasion run off the reservation following a melody. A few times I have ended up just stopping the solo because I couldn't think of a way to turn it back into the song within a couple of bars of where we were in the song. It's awkward and everybody just looks at you funny when it happens.

 

Like, Lee, I usually just try to stay on the solo that the original player laid down in the studio. But on extended versions of songs you have to adlib part of it.

 

Quite often, when I'm listening to someone else's lead break, I'll start playing my own in my head and can easily depart from theirs into what seems to me to be a more interesting path. But I rarely actually play those. It's one of the little blocks I have. Easy to do in my head, but hard to recall when I've got my hands on my guitar.

[Bluesape]

I try tp be fluid and flexible all the time, almost always inserting my own solos in a cover tune. My biggest fault as I perceive is the tendency to play very fast runs, most of the time, even during ballads. I somehow make them fit, but I know the restraint of say, David Gilmour, would fit better at times.

[UnderTheGroove_dup2]

At times I get in the rut of using tried and true phrases and licks. Other times I will go where my ears lead me. Sometimes that gets me in trouble and other times it gives great stuff. For the majority of my playing I am blending the two.

[Gruupi]

My approach is similar to UnderTheGrove's. Sure I have stock phrases and patterns to get started with or to fall back on when the creative juices aren't flowing. But I do chase melodies I hear spontaniously.

 

Iv'e been thinking about improvisation alot lately. I think the rythmic phrasing is as interesting as the actual notes. Listen to Coltrane, Parker, or any master improviser. Its the phrasing that makes it work. Sometimes I don't even like their note choices but rythmically it falls together and sounds good.

 

So you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you play. But it helps to leave the door open for when inspiration hits to follow your instinct and take a risk.

[miroslav]

Sounds like the question leans mostly toward impromptu jam improvising....

which is all about letting yourself gotrying out new thingsotherwise, whats the point of improvising.

 

But where most of my guitar work is done (recording for specific songs)I find that each song dictates the most complementary direction that a lead line should follow.

If you try to be too smart and too slick in your fret work (just because you can)

it may sound impressive when taken out of contextjust listening to the guitar part

but it may actually do nothing for the song, and in some cases, it even detracts from the songs vibe.

 

Some guitar players are self indulgentand seem to always require/expect the limelight when playing a few licksrather than just providing the proper melodic support that the song requires.

Ill usually improvise over the songs backing tracks for awhile, until I hear the right melodyand then Ill focus on refining itWITHOUT analysis (like..."should I play this or that").

 

Even 2-3 notes played/phrased correctly can say a whole lot more than a lot of filler fretwork can.

[Eric Iverson]

Thanks Billster for the FFT (food for thought).

 

I really haven't ever been in a stage situation where I could stretch out very often. When I do get that chance, I tend to go for the gusto! But if I know that I'll get a one chorus solo at best, I tend to just stick to something I worked out.

 

But even in those environments, I got to stick in things here and there that I made up on the spot, reacting to what's going on around me - a little melodic line, some rhythmic idea. Not a solo per se, but most definitely improvised and unplanned! In other words, I don't think solos are the only place to improvise!

 

Actually reacting spontaneously to other musicians on stage is more fun to me than where everyone solos at length... unless you're talking about great players who can really pull it off!

 

To Gruupi: it's funny you mention rhythmic phrasing. Lately I've listened to extended Coltrane improvisations with just him and Elvin Jones, which used to bore me. But now it's fascinating to hear how he relates to Elvin, my all-time favorite drummer!

 

And my mando teacher has taught me a lot about rhythm - how to break things up so it ain't endless streams of eighth notes! Starting on the 'and' of a measure etc. And not being afraid to repeat a phrase to bring a point home! Or play different notes but the same rhythmic phrasing... there are many options and we don't explore enough of them.

 

Other rhythmic masters are Wes Montgomery and Ravi Shankar. Not too shabby melodists, either.. and Wes had great harmonic ears! Wes is one of the few guys who could play a great solo on a tune, and then you hear an alternate take and hear another great solo, but quite different from the first one!

[Billster]

Scott Henderson and John Scofield have a way of playing in the pocket to where the notes don't particularly matter, the groove carries the thing right through the "out" notes and back "in" again.

 

I just got to thinking a little because there are certain phrases everyone has that just fall under their fingers and fill space without respecting the surroundings or the destination. Slowing down the thought process a little bit, and actually letting the music play you is a good challenge.

[pauldil]

There are many ways that you can take a lick that you play all the time and make it sound totally different and new. Accent different notes, use a whisper/talk/scream approach to dynamics, exchange some notes with rests, omit notes, lengthen notes, shorten notes, use the lick over a different chord or progression than usual, alter 1 of the notes, repeat every note twice, approach each note from a ½ step above or below, etc. Its really amazing how much mileage you can get out of what you already know.

 

Paul

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

I attend a fair amount of shows. The sad truth is that, no matter what people say, the vast majority shoot their wads in their first few solos, and spend the rest of the night rehashing and playing it safe. (That is why I hate to see white boys playing the blues... it is all 'licks off of records'... ...and when it comes to guitar and the blues, most -everybody- is white no matter what color their skin might be. With blues, the repetition is particularly boring and anoying, as the idiom itself relies upon staid arrangements so that everybody playing knows where they are at any given moment.)

 

I know of one club that I can go to and see full-out blues experiementation every Thursday night. I know of one club where I can go to see big band on a Wenesday night, and occasionally those guys will fly a little. Most of the rest of the time, it is a crapshoot.

 

On the other hand, it is -always- an adventure when I play lead, since I suck so baddly at it, and i NEVER know what I am going to do next. I can only tell you that it will NOT be "licks off of records". (Rhythm players really should not be forced to solo....)

 

Bill

[Fender Bender_dup1]

Grandstanding at the end of tunes ala Hendrix @ Woodstock is one of my loves..can never finish a song!

 

If I'm doing covers I rarely stick to the recorded version, its always an improv based around a basic theme. That way it stays fresh. Dont enjoy playing anything note for note - Unless its my own composition!

[Tone Taster]

Depends on the situation. Alot of times it seems like I know what I'm doing at the time, but when I listen to it, I kinda don't know what it is unless I am really intent on it.

 

I do get sick of playing familiar patterns and sometimes limit myself to playing on just one or 2 strings say over a progression over several chords.

 

Other times, I will try playing in all quarter note triplets w/wide intervals in ordeer to be more spontaneous

 

things like that

 

I love those suggestions Bill. Good stuff

[Funk Jazz]

define "risks"

 

i don't find any risk in improvisation, per se. every note is fair game on the fly!

 

do i have a method for stirring up ideas? i try not to contrive (as much as possible) because if your not surprising yourself your not improvising. of course, my ideals are way ahead of my actual abilities

[Pappy P]

I always try to do something that fits the melody. I'll use a few cliques just to get the point across and arouse interest, but then I will add my own thoughts and feelings to the melody.

[Pappy P]

By risks he means leaving you comfort zone and actually improv-ing and not just playing rout.

[Billster]

Originally posted by Funk Jazz:

define "risks"

 

I'd say looking for a melody outside of the known quantities is a good start for some risk taking.

 

Let's say you have rhythm changes in C major. Do you play C major lines, A minor lines, or D Dorian lines?

 

Or do you start with the given melody and go to twisting off new notes through the rhythmic phrases? Hmmm.

 

Do you play D minor lines, making sure to abuse the V chord with the Bb, trying to make the chord serve a new harmonic function?

[Funk Jazz]

<--- this means i was joking, fellas!

[the stranger]

Cool thread...

 

When I'm improvising, the melody is the most important part. If I manage to get some blistering shred in the context of reinforcing the melody, than that's cool, too. Because yeah, sometimes I do have to make a mental effort to slow down.

(The old one note is effective as 200 thing).

 

I have my bag of licks that I use to jump off with, but I try to get into the groove where the music ends up over-riding the mind.

If I am having a good day, it almost feels like somebody else is playing and/or I have entered another dimension. The zone is my favorite place.

 

I agree that phrasing is everything. And I'm what you would call theory ignorant. It's in there, but I don't read music or think or play within that context. My technique on guitar is mostly all based on playing by ear.

I'm real good with my intervals...I know how many steps I need to take any any given siuation. If I have a msucial theory I go by, it's based on intervals. It seems my personal music theory is one that is based on intervals that are guided by my ear. Does that make sense?

 

Having a big amount of metal influence leads me to do a lot of chromatic stuff.

 

Do you challenge yourself by limiting your notes/string selection/fret range?

And a lot of surf (Dick Dale)influence made me realize the value of one string. I love to cruise up and down one string working a melody. So that would be one of my fall-back-on things.

 

Or do you chase melodies to the ends of the earth, with no sure way back to the tonic?

Of course, because when you are lucky enough to find your way back to the tonic it feels oh so good.

 

Ever try noises/whammybar/special effect mayhem as an exclusive method for a solo?

They don't call me destructo for no reason.

 

--

 

My primary method of practice involves loading up the 5-disc changer with some good music and alternating between improv and/or learning bits here and there. Mostly improv, though.

And the selection of music spans a wide variety.

Jazz, metal, hip hop, disco, surf, ZZ TOP, and whatever else I'm currently grooving on. And I think that busting on as wide a variety of music as possible does wonders for my ability to im provise in various musical contexts.

 

I'm still working on following some of those jazz

key changes. Jazz is a whole new ball game in soloing compared to rock/blues based stuff.

But it has been great for my playing because it is doing exactly what you mentioned, it is breaking me out of the normal patterns and such that I fall back on. And I'm coping all sorts of great lines from all the great horn players. Want to learn good phrasing? Listen to more horn players.

 

My favorite groove to jam on is a two chord type vamp over a shuffle beat. I can get so far into the groove on one of them that the music stops and I'm still wanking for another ten minutes.

[the stranger]

I was just thinking after I hit the post button...

 

If I wasn't taking risks, I wouldn't consider it improvising.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by the stranger:

I was just thinking after I hit the post button...

 

If I wasn't taking risks, I wouldn't consider it improvising.

exactly. I would think that the term requires it.

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios:

That is why I hate to see white boys playing the blues... it is all 'licks off of records'...

 

 

Recently recorded a bands demo...and afterwards, when asked about my opinion of the guitar players work (who I was told was "really good")...

...all I could say was, "He's a typical a lick player".

Got all the best ones pulled off all the best R&R/Blues albums...and now he's just stringin' 'em together and calling it guitar playing.

 

I guess for the typical bar crowd...they want to hear that shit...the whole "human jukebox" approach to playingbut its not my usual cup of teaI prefer finding my own shit rather than relying on copped licks.

 

I dont' get a chance to just jam with people as much as I use to...but those "free form" sessions were always the most fun for me...where you just start off with a themeand them you let it go in whatever direction it wants to go.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Yea, I know, it's much better to jam for no one in somebodys basement for endless hours of unorganized crap that nobody likes just so you don't have to do all those old licks that you most likely can't do anyway. That's the way to go alright, it's good to strech out isn't it!

[Hardtail]

Originally posted by Billster:

Be honest. Time for some rut-busting.

 

Do you have a bunch of phrases that you fall back on? Or do you chase melodies to the ends of the earth, with no sure way back to the tonic?

 

In my case, I take big risks but I'm not playing in front of an audience in a band (yet). So, if I flub up, who cares?

 

I do a lot of my improv-blasting with UnderTheGroove's CD. Also, ellwood was kind enough to send me a CD as well.

 

Now.. if/when I play in a performing band, I'm generally the kind of guy who doesn't play solos exactly the same each time. However, I do stick to familiar phrases more.

 

I use the time I have now to discover/rediscover some neat stuff to use in soloing. When the time comes that I'm playing in a band, I'll concentrate more on being tight with that band.

[Shoes]

I missed this and wanted to get back and comment on it.

 

I've got a pocket full of crushed cookies that are stale and sticky. I pull them out by the fistful and toss them about when required but I wrestle with this constantly.

It would be easier to say that these are the tricks more often than not that get me out of trouble.

 

Where I go is most often inspired by the imagery that's etched my brain like Zappa, Beck or even Neil Young. It's frequently on some tangent to the melody that I try to head unless the number is so cheesy that sleepy melodic moments are not only required but mandatory.

 

My golf game is the exact same thing. I'm great at getting out of trouble... and the rest of the time I just want to have some fun.

[Gruupi]

So Elwood is trolling again. Hours of unorganized crap? I call it hours of FUN. Playing music for the love of it. Listening to the other musicians and playing off of their ideas. I guess if there aren't a bunch of drunks cheering you on, its not valid music? Even though I respect your playing Elwood, I sure do feel sorry that you seem to miss out on the joys of improvisation and creativity. But you really shouldn't post deragatory comments like that. It would be better to just not post at all if you aren't following the spirit of the thread. Your first post answered the question and you thoughts on improv, the later comment was just inflammatory.

[Guitarzan]

if you are talkin total improv, i get weird alot.

Say it is ZZZmon and i jammin, he will man the drums and i will riff endlessly morphing from straight hard rock to intervallic weirdiousty ( i made that word up , M'kay)

with other guitarplayers it is a different situation. we will play something and go from there.

yes i have some standard things i sometimes all back on. but the song usually dictates how i play.

don't expect much if i am required to play over three chords repetitively.

i usually get bored and play boringly.

i generally suck anyway but i have my moments.

i don't tear up the fretboard by any stretch of the imagination, i look for something different that works rythymically.

i self edit, and try to support the song.

i do enjoy going off on a hunt with no way back.

cool stuff happens and if something ugly appears you get a laugh. nothin wrong with that.

if i do something not really knowing what it is and it turns out cool, i kind of feel guilty. but i can live with that.

[Hardtail]

Originally posted by Gruupi:

So Elwood is trolling again. Hours of unorganized crap? I call it hours of FUN. Playing music for the love of it. Listening to the other musicians and playing off of their ideas. I guess if there aren't a bunch of drunks cheering you on, its not valid music? Even though I respect your playing Elwood, I sure do feel sorry that you seem to miss out on the joys of improvisation and creativity. But you really shouldn't post deragatory comments like that. It would be better to just not post at all if you aren't following the spirit of the thread. Your first post answered the question and you thoughts on improv, the later comment was just inflammatory.

I didn't get any of the "trolling" thing from ellwood's statement. It seemed to me that he got a tad insulted and just defended himself.

 

But... he's a big boy. I'm sure he'll tell you exactly how he feels later.

[Hardtail]

On the subject of improv, I encourage you guys to check out John Scofields Improv tape that he made about 15 years ago. It's got lots of good stuff.

 

Maybe something better has come along since then but this is still good material.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by miroslav:

Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios:

That is why I hate to see white boys playing the blues... it is all 'licks off of records'...

 

 

Recently recorded a bands demo...and afterwards, when asked about my opinion of the guitar players work (who I was told was "really good")...

...all I could say was, "He's a typical a lick player".

Got all the best ones pulled off all the best R&R/Blues albums...and now he's just stringin' 'em together and calling it guitar playing.

 

I guess for the typical bar crowd...they want to hear that shit...the whole "human jukebox" approach to playingbut its not my usual cup of teaI prefer finding my own shit rather than relying on copped licks.

 

I dont' get a chance to just jam with people as much as I use to...but those "free form" sessions were always the most fun for me...where you just start off with a themeand them you let it go in whatever direction it wants to go.

GRUUPI, read this thread and see why I reacted the way I did! I will always react that way when I see somebody commenting on cover musicians work.