pjd
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Posts posted by pjd
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BTW, arrangers are quite common as so-called professional instruments in many parts of the world.
It ain't no accident that a large number of styles are "schlager". I remember getting blissfully drunk outdoors in Erlangen watching and listening to schlager. 🙂 In South Africa, I watched a street kid rock the s--t out of a beat-up old arranger. It's a privilege to have what I have...
Peace -- pj
North America is an arranger desert.
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4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:
For Genos 2 vs. Montage M hardware, maybe PJD will chime in, he always seems to have interesting info about the guts of these things.
But also, arrangers are not always pricier. While Yamaha and Korg's most expensive portable keyboards are arrangers, as it happens also some of their least expensive keyboards are likewise arrangers! So while Genos pricing may top Montage, and Pa5X tops Nautilus, at the other end of the spectrum, Yamaha has numerous PSR arrangers that are cheaper than their MX, and Korg's EK50 and i3 are cheaper than Kross.
Thanks for saying nice things about the blog, Scott.
The compute and tone generation core is very similar between the mid-/upper-end synths and arrangers. Differences are largely due to display(s), choice of keybed, front panel gizmos (plus gizmo scanning), digital audio handling and amplification system.
Parts is parts, but a large part of the base cost is software and content (digital assets). Without tipping my hand about night-time activities, you would be shocked at the sheer number of digital assets in one of these products. (Same can be said for video games). That's why Yamaha and other manufacturers reuse waveforms like crazy across product lines. The synths and arrangers are voiced differently by the sound designers. More cost.
Styles are not that easy to develop. [I've tried my hand at this.] The MAINs and FILLs need to be versatile. The musically complicated INTROs and ENDINGs need to strongly suggest popular songs without stepping on copyright. Some folks here know this problem -- The director/producer throws you a temp track and says "I want it to sound like this." Good luck avoiding infringement. 🙂
The arrangers and synths have separate, unique code bases due to their unique functionality/UI. The synthesis software layers are definitely different, too.
In Genos, Yamaha created a product with the expectation that it will lead all other product lines. Part of the Genos selling price is the non-recurring expense of producing the next Genos. Thus, Genos funds a lot of advanced development (and research) in the Yamaha Digital Musical Instrument division.
Yikes, this response has gotten way too long -- pj
Music technology blog: sandsoftwaresound.net
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22 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:
Thanks, pj.
Now I have something legit to GAS for after I have fully mastered the use of my PSR-SX600, to where I can just raise an eyebrow and it magically cooks up the perfect accompaniment in response to my psychic waves. Just like the master monks in the 36th room of the 36 Levels of Shaolin.
I know exactly what you mean by Schlager styles. Le fromage, el queso, however you want to name it, is strong with those. Uh oh, there's a Schlager style demo at 42 min!
The British guy who took over demoing the Genos 2 at around 30 min. has similar tastes to mine, lol.
Ay, guv, thanks for reading the blog!
Last week, I walked through the arranger Data Lists across the whole arranger line. That SX600 is no slouch.
Thanks for loading up the DJX-II style pack, too! I have some additional styles which I really should distribute. I'm tempted to run them through the new MIDI file to style conversion app just to see what's up. Would take additional time and effort, tho'.
All the best, peace -- pj
Music technology blog: sandsoftwaresound.net
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I did my usual post-announcement summary here:
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-2-is-here/
$6,599 USD (MSRP), $5,700 (MAP)
It's a nice bump to the generation 1 Genos. FM synthesis. CFX is upgraded and Genos2 got a few of the character pianos, Steinberg REVelation reverb.
Yamaha stopped short of cannibalizing other product lines. No new rotary speaker sim, no Bösendorfer, no VRM. Maybe that REVelation reverb might get ported to Montage M? It's probably space hungry (for impulse response data), so I hope the Montage M platform can handle it.
All the best -- pj
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Hi Paul --
Thanks for making the comparison. I would never dare to be so bold... 🙂
The "closed system" nature of the CK and Stage CP/YC makes it difficult to compare EP waveforms and programming. With Montage/MODX and Montage M, we have the waveform lists and we can menu dive into the Performances.
Montage/MODX have the following EPs:
Voice Vel levels ---------- ---------- EP1 3 Soft/Med/Hard EP2 2 Soft/Hard EP3 2 Soft/Hard EP4 5 p/mp/mf/f/ff Rd Soft 5 p/mp/mf/f/ff Rd Hard 4 mp/mf/f/ff Rd73 5 p/mp/mf/f/ff Rd78 5 p/mp/mf/f/ff Wr1 3 Soft/Med/Hard Wr2 4 p/mf/f/ff Wr3 5 p/mp/mf/f/ff
Montage M has:Voice Vel levels ---------- ---------- 67Rd 9 73Rd Studio 8 74Rd Stage 10 78Rd Studio 10 Wr Warm 12 Wr Wide 10Maybe Montage M got the newer EPs added to the Stage YC/CP? Maybe CK got recycled EPs from Montage/MODX? If so, then there would be some qualitative differences.
Just speculatin' -- pj
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The optical shutter sensing system is used in the older AvantGrand and SilentPiano instruments. The "Non-contact continuous detection electromagnetic induction sensor" is the latest Yamaha tech and will be delivered in the newer AvantGrand and SilentPiano models. GEX is derived from the EM induction sensor approach.
I'm still searching for information, but a recent Yamaha patent describes such a key articulation system. The key side has one or two coils of wire. The substrate (PCB) side has similar opposing coils. The circuitry senses flux direction, etc. on a key-by-key basis.
Yamaha's latest patent is interesting because they want to measure "yaw" and "roll", not just vertical "strike" distance. Couple this with their recent key/note articulation patents and you've got an "MPE" keyboard!
Quite possibly, they were not able to finish the design and set up the manufacturing for these advanced designs. Thus, the m6 and m7 got FSX (for now). The Montage M team were probably ordered to "deliver or die in October 2023" by the suits.
That's my freshest take -- pj
More background: https://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m8x-key-notes/
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1 hour ago, DeltaJockey said:
Interesting comments about the action.
The M8x action is not really piano like, but to me, it satisfies the hands when playing piano, and also making it just as satisfying for non keyboard instrument sounds.
I gave up trying to replicate my acoustic action and just focus on the playing experience.
I'm by no means an expert on actions. That's why I endorse "Try before buy." It comes down to personal preference (choice), so any of my comments, "reminds me of ..." need to be taken with a grain of salt.
YEP, AP/EP is a lot more satisfying on GEX than MODX6 or FSX. I forgot to mention -- As to playing non-piano voices with GEX, it's a no-go for me. Playing organ on GEX was painful. Again, YMMV.
Thanks! I really appreciate reading everyone's impressions. I really don't mind divergent opinions. -- pj
P.S. The M8x is an instrument to be tried and considered in any case.
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Could be an option for me in the long run.
My hot button issue -- sending a full Bank Select MSB, LSB and Program Change message sequence in a single button press. After digging through Korg's documentation, I can't determine if this is possible. The lack of front panel buttons for patch select gives me a bad feeling, Egg Shen. 🤢
So many manufacturers neglect the basics while chasing the one-finger monkeys with arpeggiators and chord scales. Arg.
All the best -- pj
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34 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:
That's too bad. But also, that makes me think the feel may not be so different from the Montage 8 that preceded it. I was under the impression that its BHE action was essentially an ungraded version of the GH.
Hi Scott --
After playing a bunch of keyboards during my quest, I endorse "Try before buy." At least the FSX actions are known entities.
Fortunately, I didn't have any trouble finding an M8x to try. Not so easy when brick and mortar stores don't want to provide demo units. Can't imagine paying any sort of return shipping fee for an M8x! 😃
All the best -- pj
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I meant to add my own comments about the M8X action after playing one. I'm looking at instruments in this price range which will enable me to improve my acoustic piano chops and I hoped that the M8x would fit the bill.
As to the action, unfortunately, no. The mechanical feel of the keyboard reminds me of the old GH3/GH3X, which I find fatiguing. Much prefer the NWX in that regard. I've got to put in some serious shed time and didn't want fatigue to be a factor.
Sound-wise, no res-er-vations. In the AWM2 department, Yamaha boosted the APs, EPs, strings and orchestra percussion. The new APs and EPs are truly nice (detailed), although lacking VRM and a few other features of the Clavinova series. The "Cinema Strings" are the Montage version of Genos (Mk1) "Kino Strings", having a very different character than the "Seattle Strings." In the AN-X department, I felt at home, somehow grounded in the old AN tone.
The new rotary speaker sim is a huge plus. However, the Ms are still too big and heavy for me to gig. Everything is herniated. Everything. I'll wait for the rotary sim to come to the MOM or MOMO or whatever they call the little brother. I can wait. (Or is that "I can't wait." 😀 )
As to the 88 for home, I ordered a close-out CSP-170. Dealer tells me it's at a California Yamaha depot right now...
That's the quick take -- pj
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m8x-review-yes-i-played-one/
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Had an old S80 with the piano PLG -- donated all to my nephew who loves it. I still have an AN-200 with the PLG inside. Got a VL70m, too. Til death do us part.
Gut feeling -- There are folks with old gear and nostalgia. I know it's crazy to judge current prices by ebay, but those PLG boards could get a pretty decent penny. I sometimes get the urge to collect Roland stuff and the PLGs are harder to find than SRX/JV boards.
If it feels like "hold," then hold. Keep everything dry and cool. It ain't going anywhere. 😃
All the best -- pj
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1 hour ago, DmitryKo said:
Now can all fans stop venting about fans? It kills all the fun.
It's pretty hard on the vibe(s), too. 😃
Thanks for the Greg Phillinganes videos. Been thinking about a meditation piece like "Lush Layers" and will be studying that one! Love his work!
-- pj
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1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:
Interesting stuff, as always!
One thing, though... you say "Obviously, the Montage M8x does not have hammers" -- While it doesn't have the kind of acoustic piano style hammer the AvantGrand has (i.e. in shape, location, or complexity of mechanism), it is still a board with a hammer action, I assume, like their other "fully" weighted 88s... i.e. there is still a hammer mechanism, a mechanical device that is not part of the key that you're pressing, but rather "thrown" by it, which is what makes these keys feel more piano-realistic than non-hammer boards.
Hi Scott —
I really do mean acoustic piano hammers specifically. M8x ain’t got ‘em. Hybrid and Silent Piano have real honest to goodness hammers.
Maybe it’s semantics, but a so-called hammer action simulates the feel of hammers. GH3/GH3X do not sense the simulated “hammer.” They use the 3 contact rubbers strips which are oh so familiar.
I’ve played them all recently. If I could pony up the jack, I would buy an AvantGrand N1X. It has a true grand piano action — ain’t no simulation and it’s sweet! 😀
Thanks for your feedback. You are one of the few voices of fact and reason. The FUD on other forums is driving me nuts. 😳
All the best — pj
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Some background information behind the GEX key sensors:
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m8x-key-notes/
All the best -- pj
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14 minutes ago, Fleer said:
A dear forum friend just posted this regarding the Montage M fan:
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m-fan-on-fan-off/
Some good points, but when he refers to fans in the MacBook Air, I have to point out that both the MacBook Air M1 and the M2 have no fan at all. So, if Yamaha uses ARM processors, they could as well have opted for a large heat sink.Hi Fleer --
Our messages crossed! Thanks for reading the article.
The flat Macbook Air probably lends itself to an industrial design that lets them use the outside case as a heatsink. Yet, they probably still had to go out of their way to get the integrated circuit pack into contact with the outside case. Oh, and then there are folks on Apple forums begging Apple to bring back the fan! 😀
Anyway, we all have to make our choices as consumers. (We all work hard for the money.) I'd hate to see you miss out on a spiffy new instrument! In my case, I'll be waiting for the "lite" version N years down the road. Virtually everything and anything that can be herniated is herniated. 😄
Wishing you the best -- pj
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3 hours ago, jerrythek said:
I can't find anything in writing that currently says what Yamaha's plans are for the plug-in version beyond free to Montage owners. Time will tell.
As Jerry and others who have worked on press releases will attest, any public statements were approved by Legal. And Legal are loath to approve anything that smacks of a future commitment. 😀
I wanted to test drive an M today, but my wife called dibs on the car. Bummer!
-- pj
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1 hour ago, zephonic said:
from the product page:
EXPANDED SOFTSYNTH PLUGIN (E.S.P.) (COMING EARLY 2024)
Yep, that is what I read. "Coming early 2024" reads like me trying to tell my managers, "It'll be ready when it's done." Jeez, that is soooooo non-specific.
Old curmudgeon, here -- pj 😃
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1 hour ago, Bobadohshe said:
I find myself being intrigued from an unexpected angle - the pianos. These bigger multi element pianos sound great. Rhodes too. Damn it.
Myself, I've been shopping for a higher end digital piano for practice. Montage M8x caught my eye, too. I'm comparing against other Yammie alternatives like P-525, CLP and CSP.
Like you, that $4k+ price is hard to choke down. $4K+ is in Clavinova territory and I know which one my spouse would prefer to see in the dining room. 😃
I will definitely try an M8x even if it's just for giggles -- pj
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14 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:
I'm going to guess a fair price for Montage M VST would be anywhere from $299-$599.
Thoughts?
I'm not getting too excited about E.S.P. for the moment. Yamaha's press release states "available in 2024" and the initial version will be edit only.
As a retired software guy, that non-specific "2024" stands out like a sore thumb. January? December?
Next off, edit only, at first. It's gonna be a while before the VST is gonna be a general software instrument. Even then, the polyphony spec will pale in comparison to the hardware. Software is not going to beat dedicated hardware pipelines for AWM2 or FM-X.
I think E.S.P. started life as a prototyping/sound design tool for the development team. Somebody then got the bright idea to monetize it. (Not a bad or unwelcome idea.) Now Yamaha engineering need to "productize" it. [I've been retired over 10 years and I still hate that friggin' word. 😀 ]
All said, I'm positive on the whole E.S.P. concept -- pj
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-montage-m8x-initial-take/
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37 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:
Been out of the loop on this for a few days. Yamaha mentioned 'another announcement' on the 10th. Was it just the software version or was there something else?
As for the boards, I think they look awesome aesthetically and in terms of features.
Hi Paul --
You're good. E.S.P. was the second announcement. Both Genos2 and SEQTRAK are somewhere in the queue.
-- pj
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On 10/6/2023 at 3:22 AM, Dockeys said:
That video is pretty bad to be fair. I laughed at that "524 attractive voices" in the spec. If it doesn't have attractive voices I'm not interested. Who writes the script for these? Nice looking board though, but 22kg is not on my list unless they throw in a roadie.
Yeah, that puff point caught my attention. The video actually says "542" -- which is, number 1, wrong. Number 2, 480 of those attractive voices are the XG sound set from the 1990s/2000s. My biggest beef with 515/525 is the lack of quality secondary sounds. Has me looking at the CSP models since I don't need a portable slab, i.e., furniture is OK in my case (home practice piano).
-- pj
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On 10/6/2023 at 11:00 PM, PeterOZ said:
Another day, I made some modification, I think that how it should be sold to us:
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=26_whatsappimage2023-10-06at22.23.09_ab42f901.jpg
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=26_whatsappimage2023-10-06at22.22.43_fcf99689.jpg
http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=26_whatsappimage2023-10-06at22.22.42_8880db8c.jpg
Nicely done!
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One of my favorite films. I watch it to see (hear) Bernie, Jerry, Chris and Tina. Byrne -- not so much given the band history.
-- pj
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14 hours ago, Fleer said:
It’s called M to be on top of the Montage M.
Cute. 😃
I remember reading some stuff on the Japanese Hammond Suzuki site, but never thought to pass the info along.
The Hammond Suzuki site separates slab organs into three categories: drawbar, stage and combo. The M-solo is the "drawbar" keyboard. In one sentence, "A compact collection of functions that make it easy to use a second keyboard along with an electronic piano." Period. I don't think this is going to grow into "stage" or "combo" territory functionally.
The allusion to the old M series is intentional. Quoting, "The "M" in M-solo comes from the small B-3 "M series" with 44 keys and two stages manufactured in the 1950s and 1960s. The name was chosen because of the fact that it is held in place, and because it is intended to be played with one hand."
[Google translate]
Hope this clarifies -- pj
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A question for the more experienced MODX users.
in The Keyboard Corner
Posted
Late to the Live Set party, but here is a picture of the first page in my church Live Set.
Why all the "PJ"? I create and edit almost everything. At the very least, I dial down the reverb. Our church has enough natural reverberation and I don't need to muddy things up. So, in order to track all of my own Performances, I tag the name with "PJ".
My church Live Set goes to three pages roughly in the order of necessity and frequency of use. Page one gets a lot of action.
Hope this helps -- pj