How serious is weighted action to you?

[Squids]

I was recently at the Frankfurt Musik Messe and I was tryng various controller keys. I saw some hammer action keys with actual wood (besides the very nice Kawai action of the 5000). I was thinking how nice it would be if there was an affordable hammer action wood key controller. But, it is more expensive to do it that way. Then I was wondering if keyboard players would really pay more for the difference between that and some really good quality 88 weighted key action like what Yamaha has on the Motif for examople.

 

Any thoughts or opinions on that? What is the most you'd pay for ultra-real piano feel hammer action with wood keys (but no sounds- just a controller)?

[Prague]

I had a thread a while back asking which sounds require a weighted action. It largely came out as pianos, only. Some said clavs, harpsichords, and xylophones would work okay, too.

 

So, there is a limited need for it, but it is essential, nonetheless.

 

I would like the action that you mention, but I would prefer a better surface on the keys. Some of this plastic has no grip.

[Botch]

I'm thinking it has a lot to do whether the keyboardist in question was given lessons on a real piano or not. I pretty much learned to play on a DX-7; while I moved on to a weighted controller later, my Kurz is now seriously in need of repair, until I decide what to do I'll be doing my gigs on lightweight controllers, we'll see how it goes.

 

Some will argue that the acoustic piano mechanism has been refined over hundreds of years and is near-perfect. It may be, for throwing a felt hammer at a triumvirate of high-tension strings. Modern synths don't need to do that, so perhaps a lighter action would be more "perfect". There could also be another type of action, maybe oil-damped or something, that could ultimately be favored over either option we have today (and that would make a single controller for lightning-fast synth leads, organ smears, and piano plinking a possibility). It'll just take a keyboard manufacturer with some guts to try and introduce something like that. Just my 2-scents worth...

[DanS]

I 'waited' quite a few years coveting a 'weighted' action keyboard, and then finally picked up an S80 a few years ago, and love it. My D70 & JV90 still do all the synth style sounds, but there's no comparison for piano's & rhodes style sounds. I even enjoy playing organ sounds with it.

[Squids]

Originally posted by Prague:

I had a thread a while back asking which sounds require a weighted action. It largely came out as pianos, only. Some said clavs, harpsichords, and xylophones would work okay, too.

 

So, there is a limited need for it, but it is essential, nonetheless.

 

I would like the action that you mention, but I would prefer a better surface on the keys. Some of this plastic has no grip.

Well, that's the question of "weighted action at all". Is it just for pianos, harpsi and mallets? In my opinion: no. I LOVE weighted keys for orchestral sounds, for drums and pretty much every instrument except maybe synth leads and organ. But, interesting to know that others in that thread felt that way.

 

But, let's say we're mainly talking about controlling piano sounds plus others as a secondary thing. The question I am asking here isn't between weighted and non-weighted. It is between plastic weighted keys vs. hammer action wood keys such as what you find on the Kawai MP5000 (I think that's what it is called). If they had a controller version of it without the sounds for say $1,495. would you buy it? I might. But, it does seem expensive still for a no sound keyboard doesn't it? So, is it worth it to any of you to have that realistic piano feel at that level?

[Squids]

Originally posted by DanS:

I 'waited' quite a few years coveting a 'weighted' action keyboard, and then finally picked up an S80 a few years ago, and love it. My D70 & JV90 still do all the synth style sounds, but there's no comparison for piano's & rhodes style sounds. I even enjoy playing organ sounds with it.

I like the S80 too. Yamaha action is one of the best. But, even better are their hammer action wood keys such as what you'd find on their disclaviers. Would you pay more to have that feel or is the S80 just fine for you? Just curious to hear people's opinions.

[Dave Horne]

I would pay more for a better, more realistic and heavier action. Who wouldn't?

[Squids]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

I would pay more for a better, more realistic and heavier action. Who wouldn't?

So, if there was a controller with the S80 action for say $799-995. vs. a controller with more realistic wood key hammer action for say $1,500-1,700. you would pay the extra for the better action even though the other action is still one of the best of that type? I probably would. But, I wonder if you're right about "who wouldn't?". Would so many people care about the difference enough to pay almost double (still with no sounds or synth in the picture- just a controller). Curious.

[Red Winger]

I agree with Botch that it probably depends on how you learned to play keyboards. I grew up being classically trained on a couple different grand pianos from age 5 to about 16 (when my interests shifted). Thus, for piano, I definitely prefer the hammer feel.

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

I would pay more for a better, more realistic and heavier action. Who wouldn't?

Possibly me, for one, although it depends on how good the plastic weighted-action board was. The one thing about adding wood into the mix is that, while you may get a more realistic grand piano feel, you also will wind up with more weight. I'm not particularly into lugging around more weight than I already am, thank you very much.

 

Of course, if we were talking about a controller that would be solely for my studio, then that's a different story. However, for my purposes, I need to use my boards both live and in the studio, so portability is a factor in the tradeoff between realistic action and weight.

 

--Mark

[EscapeRocks]

I love weighted action, for my mian keyboard.

 

I also like good old "synth" action for my second board..for playing organ sounds, etc...

 

Botch brought up an intersting point about what did you learn on. I guess I'm a pianist first, then a keyboard player, as I began lessons at age 5 on a Steinway, and didn't have a keyboard/synth until I was 19. (i'm 42 now and still have the grand).

[ITGITC]

It's all a compromise. It would be great if we could get a perfect action, a reasonable price, AND an instrument that is still light enough for one guy to carry around. However, there's a magic price point for these keyboards in the marketplace. I think most of us have to think pretty seriously at spending too much more than $2,000. And what about those of us here who have asked for a 76-key weighted board? Is there enough demand for a manufacturer to include that in his line? What would you expect to pay for that?

 

I'm primarily a piano player. I really enjoy a weighted action and 88 keys. I don't have a problem with the action on my PC2X. Would I pay more for a better action - one that probably would make the instrument weigh more and increase the price by a few hundred dollars? Probably not. The PC2X with SKB case is about all the weight I want to move around. And I often move it by myself. Unless someone makes a unit that's significanty lighter and has much better sounds than the PC2X, I think I'll hold on to what I'm using.

 

Tom

[Prague]

I've always thought the A-90 was the best controller out there, EXCEPT for the action and some of the electronics. The action was too heavy and the keys are too slippery. The elctronics need a better AtoD for the controllers (a full 128 steps being read). Other than that it's fine.

 

I see many used A-90's go for about $800 to $950. I think that's because nothing else can do what it does.

 

For MSRP of $1495, I would like:

 

Wood action/keys (your idea, squids)

16 zones

5 pedals (2 CC, 3 ON/OFF)

256 (or more) memory locations

Key tops with some grip, ala ivory.

Full resolution CC's

76 or 88

 

... and the rest of the A-90 functions.

 

An option of internal voices is not necessary or can be an option. I probably wouldn't use them.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Squids:

Originally posted by DanS:

I 'waited' quite a few years coveting a 'weighted' action keyboard, and then finally picked up an S80 a few years ago, and love it. My D70 & JV90 still do all the synth style sounds, but there's no comparison for piano's & rhodes style sounds. I even enjoy playing organ sounds with it.

I like the S80 too. Yamaha action is one of the best. But, even better are their hammer action wood keys such as what you'd find on their disclaviers. Would you pay more to have that feel or is the S80 just fine for you? Just curious to hear people's opinions.

Well I'm fortunate to have a baby grand upstairs to really lay into when the fever comes on, so yeah, the S80 is just fine.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Do you mean the Kawai MP9500? Is there a new Kawai out with wooden keys I don't know about?

 

We adore our Kawai MP9000, the earlier model of the MP9500. The action is a big draw, but the fantastic sounds and really juicy trippy effects are really sweet. I like the very simple for oldtimers used to rhodes and the like interface.

 

But for a controller with no sounds? I'd have to find good sounds to go with. Not easy.

 

But from a piano background, and we are, yes the healthy key action and wooden feel matter a great deal.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Squids:

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

I would pay more for a better, more realistic and heavier action. Who wouldn't?

So, if there was a controller with the S80 action for say $799-995. vs. a controller with more realistic wood key hammer action for say $1,500-1,700. you would pay the extra for the better action even though the other action is still one of the best of that type? I probably would. But, I wonder if you're right about "who wouldn't?". Would so many people care about the difference enough to pay almost double (still with no sounds or synth in the picture- just a controller). Curious.

I classify Roland, Yamaha and Kawai as the superior digital actions; Fatar and others I try to avoid. Oh yeah, I would put the Casio action above Fatar. I played the Kawai a fair amount; I've owned many Yamaha/Rolands. I understand that Kawai is more closely replicating a grand piano action, but my take away from having played it is that it felt better when I banged hard on it. The wood is simply softer and more forgiving than whatever I'm banging into on the Roland/Yamaha keybeds. Other than that I didn't get all that much more of a sense of a real piano action over the best Roland/Yamaha. I don't believe the Kawai mimics escapement (could be wrong).

 

So if you're asking would I pay 75%-100% premium for simply wooden keys vs. plastic. NO. Would I pay it if the action completely replicated a quality grand (ala the GrandTouch)? Yeah, probably. But that is countered by the fact that a full grand action is going to weigh more and likely the form factor will be like the Kawai in order to fit the action in the case.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

Also, in answer to your header question, a quality weighted action is a BIG issue for me. At one time I owned a Kurzweil K2500X which uses a Fatar weighted action. I played that exclusively for years during which time I did not have access to a real acoustic grands. When I finally did play some real pianos again I discovered that my muscles had weakened so much that I found the actions to be unbearably heavy. I dumped the Kurzweil and searched out the heaviest, most realistic action I could find (at that time a Yamaha P-200).

 

Note: this is one of the reasons I sometimes come across negative on Kurzweil. I paid >$5,500 for that K2500X--it should have come with a better action.

 

Also, I now have a Yamaha C2 MIDI Grand, so the action thing is somewhat less of an issue for me.

 

Busch.

[humannoyed]

I have both an S80 that I bought new a few years ago and a MP9500 that I bought used last year.

 

As my old piano is need of work I practice exclusively on these at home. I am impressed at how well I am able maintain my piano playing muscles on these keyboards. I play a Kawai RX at church and my practice transfers very well.

 

I believe there are a lot of people who still think you can't develop/maintain piano technique on a digital keyboard but they are wrong.

 

Would my playing be better if I had a fine grand to practice on daily? Yes I would say definitely.

But these are the next best thing to me.

 

So to answer the original question: yes, weighted action is very important to me.

 

Day

[Dave Pierce]

Since cost is a factor, all I need is "good enough" and I won't pay extra for more than that.

 

I find the action on my RD-700 to be quite "good enough" for me. YMMV.

 

--Dave

[JeffLearman]

I need a weighted action for just about any velocity-sensitive sound. My first general-purpose synth was not velocity sensitive and of course had an unweighted keyboard. It worked fine. My next gp synth was velocity sensitive but unweighted. It drove me nuts. I played it for 11 years but never really developed the technique to play it properly. Good enough to get by, but never good enough to satisfy myself. (I also had a CP70 & Rhodes all the while.)

 

I find weighted keys really help me with any dynamic sound, including drums, Rhodes, vibes, and even dynamic lead sounds that aren't percussive. I would be fine with an unweighted keyboard for organ and string sounds, especially if the latter used aftertouch.

 

For my main keyboard (and I now just use one most of the time), I need a weighted keyboard, but would rather have a lighter & faster synth keyboard than a true piano -- even though I'm a piano/Rhodes player first.

 

However, since I don't have a real piano, I'd love to have a keyboard with a real piano action to sit at home. (I'd rather have a real piano, though!) The Yamaha Gran Touch would be perfect.

 

But no, I wouldn't want for that on my gigging board(s). I prefer the versatility of the lighter, faster so-called "fully weighted" keyboards, as well as being easier to transport. I also prefer 76 keys for portability.

[RABid]

I only use weighted action for piano parts. For others I prefer synth. And on pianos, I would rather play a quality synth action keyboard than a cheap, slow weighted action keyboard. So, would I pay more for a quality hammer action keyboard? This is something I have been debating for quite a while. I have a cheap StudioLogic SL990 that hardly gets turned on. I broke someting in it a few months ago just by picking up one end. Since then it has been in storage. I will not buy another cheap 88 key hammer action, but I am saving for either the Roland RD700SX or Fantom X 88. I really like the Roland action. Better than anyting else. But, I am in no hurry to spend 2K-3K on a keyboard right now.

 

Robert

[Tedly Nightshade]

What I love about the Kawai MP9000 action is how much it feels like a really nice Rhodes. It's definitely different than a real piano action.

[marino]

I grew up on *both* piano and organ. After all these years, I like to think that I can play just about any kind of part on any kind of keyboard, but if you forced me to play Chopin's Polonaise in G# minor on a synth keyboard I'm sure I would miss a few notes.

 

That said, I find that I prefer weighted keys for almost everything, except maybe organ smears; I have a much greater control of dynamics.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Originally posted by marino:

I find that I prefer weighted keys for almost everything, except maybe organ smears; I have a much greater control of dynamics.

Exactly.

[Geoff Grace]

The Moog Piano Bar has garnered some very good reviews and comes from a reliable manufacturer. For those who own a piano and don't need portability, I imagine this device could offer some stiff competition to even a good weighted action controller.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[niacin]

Well since I purchased an MP9500 I have been practising regularly (I mean playing say Bach rather than just learning the new tunes for the next gig), something I hadn't done for more than a decade because I would last no more than 20 minutes before resenting the sloppiness of the action of whatever I was using (Ensoniq KS-32, Fatar). And I started out as an organist so I have no real bias in terms of training. Having said that, with the exception of jazz trio gigs, I don't care and tend to leave the Kawai at home (it's less a matter of weight than the bulk of it due to the hammer mechanism). I should add that the MP9500 has comprehensive midi controller capabilities - in fact there's nothing they've left out except a breath controller input if you're into such devices.

[midinut]

Squids - I think you might be on to something here. I agree with the above posts regarding the "what you learned on" theory. I never did take "real" piano lessons and my first keyboards were Hammond, Rhodes, Moog, ARP, etc. When I do sit down at a regular piano I find after a few minutes I walk away with my arms and wrists tired. I'm sure if I regularly practiced on a wooden keybed things would be different. I also agree with the majority that it would be great for "piano" sounds (and maybe Rhodes) but I would probably hurt myself trying to do organ smears and lead lines on it. For some reason a synth action seems better suited for these. I know M-Audio has their Keystation Pro 88 (and you and I have discussed it before) and now CME has their new UF8 (Which Craig spoke really highly of in KB Mag). Did you get your hands on one of them in Frankfurt? While we're on the subject of controllers like this, I'd like to throw in a request to bring back polyphonic aftertouch (like Ensoniq - patch select buttons would be great as well), ribbon controllers, and breath control. I'd love the chance to really capture the feel of playing a CS-80 (I have CS-80V and it just doesn't do it justice without the poly aftertouch and ribbon). IIRC didn't the original CS-80 have wooden keys? I had a CS-60 back in the early 80's (cause I couldn;t afford the CS-80)and it had plastic keys but the ribbon was way cool! Just some thoughts!