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[WFTurner]

I would suppose in 99 chances out of 100 the deceased artist has a family that owns the rights to his/her work. So in effect you're still stealing from someone.

[KenElevenShadows]

If the artist was opposed to the appropriation of his/her music, then I would continue to respect the artist's wishes. I also agree with the post directly above this one.

[Gus Lozada]

... then, I have ethical problems with myself for listening crappy MP3 audio...

[LiveMusic]

Yes, I have moral/ethical problems with it, dead or alive. It's stealing, simple as that. If the artist/songwriter is dead, we'd be stealing from his widow or other heirs. Same as if we'd stolen something tangible. IMHO, whether he's dead or alive has nothing whatsoever to do with the moral/ethical position.

[suWeW]

dead or alive it doesnt matter... i dont think its stealing anyways and i dont have a moral delimma with it to begin with.

[Franknputer]

I want to know how anyone could download music from dead artists. I mean, sooner or later someone would have to reboot their computer, right? And wouldn't their ISP cut them off after awhile? And they could never have anything new, 'cuz they're dead, right? :freak:

[nursers]

Not necessarily - I still have Gnutella chats with a few deadpeople whilst peer-to-peer connected to them - apparently the afterlife saw the value of the net long before we did and it's one online community!! :)

[KHAN]

I hear dead people. [img]http://www.kidactors.com/haley/includes/hjo-hs00-01c.jpg[/img]

[Super 8]

I have no problems with it, dead or alive. While I understand why some people consider it stealing, I don't see the anything to back it up. It's not stealing so much as it's promotion and free advertisement for the artist. I think it's the best thing to happen to music since MIDI and the compact disk. Artists should be rejoicing about mp3's, not calling those who download, thieves.

[KenElevenShadows]

I guess that's all fine at you don't consider it bad, but if an artist doesn't want MP3s made of his or her music, you creating them and scattering them all over creation is not a good thing. And personally -- hey, I know this is radical here -- one should respect the artist's wishes. I'm sure this doesn't matter to people who trade MP3s because they'll always justify it somehow. I think that MP3s sound pretty good if you are, say, playing them through the computer just to get an idea of what a song sounds like. However, I think it's laughable that people are going jogging or plugging these darn things in to their stereo systems when MP3s sound so bloody awful.

[suWeW]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [b]I guess that's all fine at you don't consider it bad, but if an artist doesn't want MP3s made of his or her music, you creating them and scattering them all over creation is not a good thing. However, I think it's laughable that people are going jogging or plugging these darn things in to their stereo systems when MP3s sound so bloody awful.[/b][/quote]who cares what the artist doesnt want, after its released to the world, its pretty much out of their hands now isnt it? do they want it put on a mix tape you give to a friend? i would better fucking hope so.... might give them an extra sale. screw the stereo systems but mp3's are PERFECT for jogging and other outdoor activities, even plugging them into stereo systems and loading up 1k songs on random for a party is a great example of good uses for mp3's, better than some drunk ass person spilling beer all over the stereo while trying to put in a cd upside down in the vcr.

[KenElevenShadows]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by suWeW: who cares what the artist doesnt want, after its released to the world, its pretty much out of their hands now isnt it? do they want it put on a mix tape you give to a friend? i would better fucking hope so.... might give them an extra sale.[QUOTE] I do. I care. I'm realistic, though. I've always realized that I'm in the minority when voicing this opinion. Most people don't agree with my particular point of view on this. It's out of the artist's hands, that's right, and that extra promotion is about the best that one can hope after that. Just funny that in all this hullabaloo, it's the artist's wishes that matter least. If someone gets a hold of an album early, it'll be all over the internet. Things will get scattered all over whatever people think. I just like to point out that little voice, drowned out in the cry of the masses who feel that music is now free and theirs for the taking.

[alphajerk]

when has ANYONE ever cared about artists wishes?!? excuse me while i cry in my beer. what people are REALLY worried about the music being freely available is that now its got to actually be GOOD music for people to pay for something better than a mp3 of it [much less meet the recycling bin after downloading and hearing it] seems to me and anyone worried about mp3's are quite insecure, you know how hard it is to return an OPENED CD THAT YOU BOUGHT? i think the rest just underestimate their own fans which is kind of insulting to say the least.

[KenElevenShadows]

It's the age-old argument. Records were going to put live musicians out of business. The cassette was going to ruin people purchasing records. The DAT was going to ruin the CD business. CD-Rs and MP3s, same thing. Put out something good and we'll buy it! And of course, no one's ever given a rat's ass about the artist. I just bring it up because, I dunno, someone has to!!

[alphajerk]

im with you ken. i care too. and i THINK i give them my money when i can [always go to their live shows, buy their merch for sale there, etc]... hell i even put up bands for the night if they need a place to stay.

[daddyelmis]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]It's not stealing so much as it's promotion and free advertisement for the artist. . . Artists should be rejoicing about mp3's, not calling those who download, thieves.[/b][/quote]So, let's see, if I go into Tower Records and help myself to all the discs on Billboard's Hot 100, I should just tell the cops that I'm helping out with promotion and advertising? Heck, I should hop on over to the department store and help Nike, Hilfiger and Armani out with some promotion and advertising. Come to think of it, Porsche seems to be bit in need of some advertising. :D As I last understood the western capitalist culture, the owner of the product gets to decide how to market, advertise and promote the product and how to exploit it for their gain. If an artist or his label provides the mp3 then I agree it's great promotion. This is NOT the same as somebody uploading their copy of U2's latest disc for the world to have for free. There is no question that the vast majority of mp3 downloads are artists in the Hot 100, not unknown or unsigned bands looking for promotion. I wish everyone on Gnutella, Morpheus, Napster, etc., could have one hit record and watch their royalties evaporate because of all the people helping them with "promotion and free advertisement."

[Roto]

[quote]Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows: [b] However, I think it's laughable that people are going jogging or plugging these darn things in to their stereo systems when MP3s sound so bloody awful.[/b][/quote]Do you go jogging with a rack strapped to your back?! MP3's sound fine on a little portable player so long as you encode them at 128k. If you take the bitrate up high enough they can sound just fine over a stereo. I read this feature about stereo equipment in Rolling Stone a couple years ago, I think. They asked a bunch of famous musicians what they listened to at home. I couldn't believe how many said they just used boomboxes!

[LiveMusic]

[quote]Originally posted by daddyelmis: [b]...I wish everyone on Gnutella, Morpheus, Napster, etc., could have one hit record and watch their royalties evaporate because of all the people helping them with "promotion and free advertisement."[/QB][/quote]Wow, you and I are one in a million that agree on this. It floors me how people can say that downloading is NOT stealing. Actually, it doesn't surprise me, since people are actually mooches if given the chance. Your post was spot on. If my brother and I develop some software, bring it to market (for sale, not freeware) and some mofo copies it and puts it up on some file-sharing service and everybody and his brother can download it for free, they've stolen from us. But with music, people think it's just fine and dandy. Bullshit. It's stealing. Seems to me that songwriters and musicians and producers are like software developers. Takes talent, skills and months of time and thousands of dollars to get a song to market. And it may be a rocky ride ahead for the songwriter and artist. Time will tell.

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by daddyelmis: [b]So, let's see, if I go into Tower Records and help myself to all the discs on Billboard's Hot 100, I should just tell the cops that I'm helping out with promotion and advertising?[/b][/quote]Well, I hope you'd agree that taking CD's from a record store is not the same as downloading a song. For one thing, every CD you take is one which CAN'T be sold because you've taken it out of circulation -certainly not the case with MP3's. The implication here, by the way, is that the downloader has no intention of buying the music -otherwise we wouldn't care if they downloaded or not. I question that assumption. [quote][b]As I last understood the western capitalist culture, the owner of the product gets to decide how to market, advertise and promote the product and how to exploit it for their gain. If an artist or his label provides the mp3 then I agree it's great promotion. This is NOT the same as somebody uploading their copy of U2's latest disc for the world to have for free. [/b][/quote]Fair enough, but what good does it do to bitch about it? The mode of delivery has changed. Consumer's expectations have changed. The system is outdated. File sharing is not going to go away -in fact, it's really just getting started. So if the product owner wishes to exploit the product for their gain, then the product owner had better start playing the same game the consumers are playing. Otherwise their not really marketing their product too effectively are they? How they do that is a question that has yet to be answered. But, it appears to me that it may end up being the 'honor system' approach. Maybe you download the song, play it, and a little message pops up telling you that if you like the song, please support the artist by dialing this (900) number, and a 2 dollar charge will be added to your phone bill. I don't know if that solution would work or not, but if it did work 50 percent of the time, the artist would probably see greater profits than through traditional methods of album sales.

[strat0124]

My mom said if its free take two! :)

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]Fair enough, but what good does it do to bitch about it? The mode of delivery has changed. Consumer's expectations have changed. The system is outdated. File sharing is not going to go away -in fact, it's really just getting started. So if the product owner wishes to exploit the product for their gain, then the product owner had better start playing the same game the consumers are playing. Otherwise their not really marketing their product too effectively are they? How they do that is a question that has yet to be answered. But, it appears to me that it may end up being the 'honor system' approach. Maybe you download the song, play it, and a little message pops up telling you that if you like the song, please support the artist by dialing this (900) number, and a 2 dollar charge will be added to your phone bill. I don't know if that solution would work or not, but if it did work 50 percent of the time, the artist would probably see greater profits than through traditional methods of album sales.[/b][/quote]Hmmm...sounds to me like you're saying: Oh, well - things are different now, so if you want to make any money you need to change your attitude, and if you're nice about it then some of the people [i]who are going to take your work for free[/i] will feel obliged to pay you for it if they like it. Nice idea, but I bet it won't work out that way. Imagine a restaurant working that way - you feed me, then if I like the food maybe I'll send you a dollar, if it's not too much trouble for me to do it. It still comes down to the basic fact of whether or not you are taking something that you are allowed to have. I agree that there should be more put out to people in the way of free music, and that the record companies have shown their true colors (not to mention incredible cluelessness) - but people who think that they have some inalienable right to other peoples' work are denying the reality that they are taking something for nothing.

[Danny M]

[quote]For one thing, every CD you take is one which CAN'T be sold because you've taken it out of circulation -certainly not the case with MP3's.[/quote]This is only partially true. An MP3 available for mass distribution may, in fact, represent a great number of CD's which can no longer be sold, due to the consumer having received what they wanted without having to pay for it. People don't usually steal things that they see no value in. [quote]How they do that is a question that has yet to be answered. But, it appears to me that it may end up being the 'honor system' approach.[/quote]In this society? Suuuuuure. That idea is all fine and good for people like you and me, who actually might have a conscience about these matters, but it appears to break down quickly when you get outside of the music industry, and people who are really serious about the enjoyment of music. Even inside our industry, how many companies would anybody work for on an "honor" system? Not many, I think. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong on this point, but I just don't think that the honor system is really viable. I think your idea of a 50% return rate is sky high. I'm thinking that it would be about 1%. Besides, people would moan and groan about those danged pop-up ads that kept ruining the enjoyment of their music. -Danny

[alphajerk]

[quote]Originally posted by FranknKeefe: [b][QUOTE]Nice idea, but I bet it won't work out that way. Imagine a restaurant working that way - you feed me, then if I like the food maybe I'll send you a dollar, if it's not too much trouble for me to do it..[/b][/quote]um, if *I* go to a restaurant and get a shitty meal, damn well sure im going to bitch about it and most times not get charged for it. i dont think i have yet to run across a manager of a place who hasnt taken the meal off the bill. and bad service? many times results in a free meal next time.

[Wewus432]

Well fuck, you know what, you're not going to change human nature by bitching about it. People will take what ever is not tied down and I think it has something to do with THE SURVIVAL INSTINCT. This IS the strongest instinct in the human animal. Hard to explain, but I think that has a lot to do with the way things are. You can bitch and moan but facts is facts. All that stuff is up for grabs, and the people in those businesses know that. You win a few, you lose a few, STEALING? Everybody in the human race steals from someone or something. We STEAL from animals by killing them and eating their flesh. We steal from plants by killing them and eating them. What is STEALING?

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by FranknKeefe: [b]Hmmm...sounds to me like you're saying: Oh, well - things are different now, so if you want to make any money you need to change your attitude, .[/b][/quote]Yeah that's basically what I'm saying. Industries change, and those who adapt to change survive. Those who don't, die out. That's how it works in business and in life. [quote] [b]Nice idea, but I bet it won't work out that way. Imagine a restaurant working that way - you feed me, then if I like the food maybe I'll send you a dollar, if it's not too much trouble for me to do it. [/b][/quote]I was thinking more about Public Radio/Television. They do have government and corporate support, but by far, the largest chunk is provided by the consumer. And, they don't get on their fund raising drives and call those who tune in, thieves, for not paying for it.

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by alphajerk: [b] [quote]Originally posted by FranknKeefe: [b][QUOTE]Nice idea, but I bet it won't work out that way. Imagine a restaurant working that way - you feed me, then if I like the food maybe I'll send you a dollar, if it's not too much trouble for me to do it..[/b][/quote]um, if *I* go to a restaurant and get a shitty meal, damn well sure im going to bitch about it and most times not get charged for it. i dont think i have yet to run across a manager of a place who hasnt taken the meal off the bill. and bad service? many times results in a free meal next time.[/b][/quote]But - that's more like getting a refund. If you go to a restaurant & the food is just OK, you'll still have to pay for it.

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by TheWewus: [b]Well fuck, you know what, you're not going to change human nature by bitching about it. People will take what ever is not tied down and I think it has something to do with THE SURVIVAL INSTINCT. This IS the strongest instinct in the human animal. Hard to explain, but I think that has a lot to do with the way things are. You can bitch and moan but facts is facts. All that stuff is up for grabs, and the people in those businesses know that. You win a few, you lose a few, STEALING? Everybody in the human race steals from someone or something. We STEAL from animals by killing them and eating their flesh. We steal from plants by killing them and eating them. What is STEALING?[/b][/quote]In this case I would say that stealing is deliberately breaking the code of behavior that we have agreed upon as part of civilization, for your personal benefit. No matter how good a song is, you will not die if you don't have a copy of it - so it doesn't constitute survival. As for stealing plants & animals, I believe that there is a difference in taking things in a respectful way & "stealing". Sport hunting, to me, would be an example of stealing from an animal.

[Franknputer]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]Yeah that's basically what I'm saying. Industries change, and those who adapt to change survive. Those who don't, die out. That's how it works in business and in life. [/b][/quote]Again, I would point that out in the failing of the record industry to adapt to the changes in technology - but how does that support the concept that one must adapt their business model to not making a profit? [quote] [b]I was thinking more about Public Radio/Television. They do have government and corporate support, but by far, the largest chunk is provided by the consumer. And, they don't get on their fund raising drives and call those who tune in, thieves, for not paying for it.[/b][/quote]But there's the rub - government support (which we as musicians by and large do not get) and corporate support (which also translates to government support - tax breaks). If the government would buy me a MOTU 2408, some nice mics, extra hard drives, etc. then I would gladly put all of my work into the public domain - but they don't. We live in a capitalist economy, so why shouldn't I be able to get paid for my work? If tomorrow everything were free, then I'm sure we'd all be happy to go to work for no money - but how many of us are going to do it, RIGHT NOW, on principle?

[Dak Lander]

This is a hell of a quandry for some of us. Here's my feeling on the subject & I'm not sure I can be clear enough for most to understand. Here goes. I won't and don't download music by anyone that has music on the internet that they, or their representitive didn't put up. Representives meaning, agents, recording companies, publishers & etc. I've never downloaded music via the peer to peer sites, nor do I plan to. I do download music that's on sites where it's obvious the artist intended it to be listened to and/or downloaded. MP3, IUMA & such sites, along with official websites, and sale sites that have samples available. Those are all fair game. I don't, and won't post songs by others on my sites for downloading, by the original, or copyright holder so others can "share" them. I will, and have, put "MY" version of a particular song on one of my sites. It's not intended for downloads but if someone does it's their problem, not mine. I don't take things that are just lying on the street that are not mine, nor do I expect others to do that. (On a side note, I've found wallets in the street and opened them to get the information that I needed to return it. The last time, the wallet was owned by a high school student) I'm not sure if this made any sense at all, folks, but it boils down to this. If an artist, dead or alive, or their bonified representative posts music on the net & I like it, I'll grab it. It will probably cause me to buy a cd, if and when comes available. On the other hand, I won't, and don't steal someones music just because some yahoo ripped their cd & posted the song. You can go to daklandermusic.com & download MY song and you can go to dakotanight.com, follow the link to the mp3 site & download all you want & you can go to IUMA & dig up my songs. It's all good. That's why they are there. Just don't steal somebody elses songs. 'K?

[henryrobinett]

I'm all the way with Dak on this. I have never downloaded a song that wasn't intended to be downloaded by the artist. I've never even visited any Napster like sites. For me it's unethical. I'll also say this, unpopular though it may be: after having run a very small independent jazz label where the outlay of cash is considerable and the remuneration is dismal, it is NOT merely the artist who needs consideration here. The agreement between the artist and the label is, in theory, a benign business agreement. The label is trying to get the artist exposed so they can BOTH make some money. Of course the business for many larger labels is very, very unethical and many an artist has been taken advantage of, but I hazard a guess that the number is less than is commonly believed. It is EXPENSIVE to make CDs and promote them to radio, trade magazines, buying advertising space, videos, distributors and retail outlets, in store play terminals, etc.. Ripping CDs and downloading music not licensed for IS stealing and no amount of jusitification will change that fact.