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Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
I started taking precautions in early January, to the ridicule of those around me. Had the U.S. government announced the milquetoast suggestion of "everyone wear a mask, make a mask if necessary, and stay distanced, wash your hands" in
January, *without a doubt thousands of lives would have been saved* Thousands. And the U.S. wouldn't be in this ruinous state we're in now due to the *necessity* for lock downs (even though we didn't really do it...)

Some facts that you have overlooked: In January the WHO claimed there was no evidence of human transference and as late as March Dr Fauci said masks were not required. So the government did listen to the "experts".

But didn't update what they heard based on additional research. Only a few weeks after Fauci said masks weren't necessary, the CDC issued guidelines sayings masks did make a difference. Bear in mind too that he said this during the Great Toilet Paper Shortage of 2020. There was concern that if masks were presented as a solution, people would hoard them, and there wouldn't be masks for the primary care providers, who at that time were in far greater danger of infection than the general public.

Fortunately, manufacturers did listen to the experts, and ramped up production to the point where there was no need to be concerned about whether there would be enough masks to go around.

Quote
Also, the border was shut down down to travel from the source of the infection on Jan 31 but that was widely criticized, but in retrospect was the right thing to do.

Yes, it helped, but it wasn't a panacea. First, we were late to the party - the restrictions went into effect after 45 countries had already imposed their own restrictions. Nor were the US restrictions particularly strict. They allowed travel from China to the States for more than five months after the announcement. More than 8,000 Chinese and foreign nationals still entered the country, and in the first few months, at least 27,000 Americans flew to the United States from China. So IMHO it's a case of a PR move that was based on science, and coincided with doing some good. But given that the restrictions were half-hearted, it would be incorrect to overstate the benefits.

Again, though, I can't emphasize enough that something like COVID-19 had not happened during our lifetimes, unless you were 102 years old. It was called the "novel" Corona virus for a reason. No one knew anything about it when it hit. No matter who had been in office, no matter what the politics or severity of the lockdowns, it would have been a problem because it would take literally months before doctors and scientists could get a handle on what was happening. Here we are a year later, and consider how much is still not known.

I do think that the response needed to be on a federal, not state, level. In that respect, the US was way behind the curve. But also, comparisons to New Zealand are apples and oranges - the US is not a small island off the beaten path, with a limited population that pretty much uniformly has faith in its government.

The bottom line is a) everyone did the best they could, and b) the "best" was sometimes a very low bar.

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Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Some facts that you have overlooked: In January the WHO claimed there was no evidence of human transference and as late as March Dr Fauci said masks were not required. So the government did listen to the "experts". Also, the border was shut down down to travel from the source of the infection on Jan 31 but that was widely criticized, but in retrospect was the right thing to do.

Really, it’s pretty difficult to take this statement as anything other than a political statement.

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Originally Posted by dboomer
Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Some facts that you have overlooked: In January the WHO claimed there was no evidence of human transference and as late as March Dr Fauci said masks were not required. So the government did listen to the "experts". Also, the border was shut down down to travel from the source of the infection on Jan 31 but that was widely criticized, but in retrospect was the right thing to do.

Really, it’s pretty difficult to take this statement as anything other than a political statement.

Or, something that if it was on the web, would be broken link. A lot has changed since those statements were made. Experts become experts by making a hypothesis, testing it, and deciding whether the hypothesis is correct or not, based on an accumulation of data. If not, corrections are made, which is exactly what happened.

We still have quite a ways to go before understanding the mechanics of this pandemic. At the moment, misinformation seems to be mostly about the vaccine. It will be something else next month.

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Originally Posted by dboomer
Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Some facts that you have overlooked: In January the WHO claimed there was no evidence of human transference and as late as March Dr Fauci said masks were not required. So the government did listen to the "experts". Also, the border was shut down down to travel from the source of the infection on Jan 31 but that was widely criticized, but in retrospect was the right thing to do.

Really, it’s pretty difficult to take this statement as anything other than a political statement.
There have been plenty of political statements on this topic, including the one I responded to.

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I didn't really regard what PrairieGuy said as a political statement, but as statements of what was presumed to be factual, regardless of the politics involved. Some of it is factual, some of it is partially factual, as follows:


* Fact: In January the WHO claimed there was no evidence of human transference and as late as March Dr Fauci said masks were not required. To present a more complete picture, though, it's worth mentioning that both changed their positions changed shortly thereafter.
* Partial fact: So the government did listen to the "experts." Reality: Sometimes the government listened to experts, sometimes not, with the ignoring of expert advice generally conceded to have diminished over time.
* Partial fact: Also, the border was shut down down to travel from the source of the infection on Jan 31 but that was widely criticized. Reality: Travel was restricted, not shut down. The move was criticized by some for being wrong, by some for not going far enough, and not criticized by others.
* Partial fact: But in retrospect was the right thing to do. Reality: It helped the situation, so at this point, I don't know if anyone argues that it was the wrong thing to do. However, some would argue the right thing to do would have been to do it earlier, as other countries did, and to make the restrictions more stringent.

I do try to remind people that politics is not needed here. Emotions run high, especially with 400,000 dead people, in light of previous predictions. I don't think anyone would dispute that the government could have done a better job of managing the Corona virus. However, it can be disputed whether it would have been possible to do so, given the circumstances, lack of knowledge, questionable willingness of the population to conform to recommendations, sheer size of the country, and political considerations/divisions.

That's behind us. What matters is how we move forward from this point, because nothing can be done about the past, and debating the actions that were taken in the past is not as constructive as debating the actions that should be taken in the present and future. The best we can hope for is that by learning from the past, the next administration won't make the same mistakes, and continue doing steps that are correct. For example, operation Warp Speed did produce vaccines much faster than expected. That was correct. However, the mistake was not having a plan for now to distribute it, so that's a mistake that needs to be corrected.

The big problem now, as I understand it, is there is not enough vaccine to give the required second shot to many who have received the first shot, thus making the first shot moot.

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Originally Posted by dboomer
Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Some facts that you have overlooked: In January the WHO claimed there was no evidence of human transference and as late as March Dr Fauci said masks were not required. So the government did listen to the "experts". Also, the border was shut down down to travel from the source of the infection on Jan 31 but that was widely criticized, but in retrospect was the right thing to do.

Really, it’s pretty difficult to take this statement as anything other than a political statement.

Er, there's nothing political about that. He's just stating the facts of what happened at the time. Simple facts. Zero politics.

I find it bizarre how some people fail to understand that science must change with new knowledge. That is something that keeps showing up everywhere now, whether it be claiming that the whole thing is a hoax and government control because Fauci said no masks originally or conversely trying to retrospectively criticize the guidance at the time. Both miss the same key fact - science must progress with new knowledge. It is not static! Cue the bad "2020 vision" hindsight joke.

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Originally Posted by Mighty Motif Max
Er, there's nothing political about that. He's just stating the facts of what happened at the time. Simple facts. Zero politics.


I can’t see it as facts if you take it out of context and omit the last Fauci’s last sentence in the discussion which was -

“ FAUCI: Of course, but when you think "masks," you should think of health care providers needing them and people who are ill. The people — when you look at the films of countries, and you see 85% of the people wearing masks, that's fine. That's fine. I'm not against it. If you want to do it, that's fine.

HOST: But it can lead to a shortage.

FAUCI: Exactly, that’s the point. It could lead to a shortage of masks for the people who really need it.”

Out of context it becomes purely political or ... extremely foolish

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Looking at what happened in the past with COVID and learning from that can help us make a better future.

And it's hard to keep politics out of it when our departing government has by far the world's worst response to this disease. So we must look back to see what they did wrong in order to learn from the mistakes of the past and use that knowledge to forge a better path forward.

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Instead of listening to people who aren't Dr. Fauci, let's hear what Dr. Fauci said on March 8th (see the video in the next post). It's true that he said the general public didn't need to wear masks, and it's true he was very concerned about shortages. However, both statements require context.

* This was before anyone knew that COVID-19 could be spread by asymptomatic people. After that was established a few weeks later, then the recommendation changed to wearing masks to prevent spread from people who didn't appear to have COVID-19.
* Given there was no knowledge of asymptomatic spread, if masks were presented as a panacea, then there would likely be a shortage (like there was with toilet paper). So, there was no point in recommending that the general public wear masks if there was no KNOWN (I repeat, known) reason to wear them, whereas it was KNOWN that people exposed to patients who were symptomatic really needed them.

As to whether the government listened or not, there is no dispute that after early April, when asymptomatic spread was understood to exist, there was no unified messaging regarding wearing masks in the United States. As to whether there was politics involved, in an interview in June with the Wall Street Journal (sorry, it's behind a paywall), the president said that he viewed masks as possibly a political statement against him personally. As far as I know, that was the first time politics was injected specifically into the discussion at the federal level.

As to whether "government" did or did not listen to the experts, some state and local governments did, but not uniformly, and not all at the same time. For example, mandatory mask wearing in public places in Nashville wasn't put in place until the end of June.

So the bottom line is a) Fauci gave advice based on what was known at the time (which let's face it, is all anyone can do, b) he was indeed concerned about mask shortages, and c) references to "the government" are meaningless. If the president says there's no need to wear masks, while the CDC (which is a branch of the government) says there's a need to wear masks, then saying "the government" is misleading because there is no unified statement coming from government at the Federal level, let along government entities that exist at the state and local levels (which also quality as government).

A true expert is not afraid to admit being wrong, and is willing to change conclusions based on new data when it becomes available.

I believe the above puts an end to this particular branch of this discussion. Now, when are we going to be gigging again?

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here you are



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Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Some facts that you have overlooked: In January the WHO claimed there was no evidence of human transference and as late as March Dr Fauci said masks were not required. So the government did listen to the "experts". Also, the border was shut down down to travel from the source of the infection on Jan 31 but that was widely criticized, but in retrospect was the right thing to do.

Those are not "facts", they're anecdotes. Leadership was briefed in January.


"I still like playing it down because I don't want to create a panic".


The WHO *reported* that China *reported* there was no evidence of human transference - when obviously there was. *It's why I started taking precautions in January*. Does the U.S. government take it's strategic health cues from China, or from U.S. scientists? Dr. Fauci - who is under an agency that oversaw a program to study zoonotic virus in bats at the Wuhan lab in 2013 - had reasons to play it down because of that, and being part of the adminstration's political circle.
[
Meanwhile there was plenty of footage of Chinese workers in full PPE decontaminating buildings, everyone there wearing masks, people in hospitals dying.


"It'll be over by Easter".

Quote
Also, the border was shut down down to travel from the source of the infection on Jan 31 but that was widely criticized, but in retrospect was the right thing to do.


We didn't "shut down the borders", we restricted travel from *only certain places*. While at the same time playing down the threat, not informing the public to take precautions, AND having "leadership" proudly going around flaunting wearing masks.

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Look, I don't think there's any doubt at this point that the federal response to the pandemic was deeply flawed. Responses to the pandemic varied widely from country to country. Most medical people seem to think we were somewhere in the middle.

Those who believe this country handled it well will not believe otherwise, and those who think this country handled it poorly will not believe otherwise.

So there's no point in presenting counter-arguments because no truly new points are being made. The facts are out there, and people will choose their own reality based on the filters through which they see those facts - intentionally, unintentionally, or some combination thereof..

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There can't be responsible gigs until the numbers are below what they were in March, combined with a majority having been vaccinated. Otherwise you're providing an event for people to possible infect other people.

Certain nations may meet that criteria by June, possibly. The U.S. definitely won't. I don't think Biden can meet his goal of 100 million by May, but if he does it would be well after August to get 1/2 of the U.S. population I believe, and then another 3 months for the numbers to come down.

I think that could be advanced many months if we had a serious 3 week lock down at that 100 million mark. We could knock the R0 down significantly.

But I don't think the above will happen. I don't think we'll hit 100 million until the end of the year at best, but we'll over a million dead, many new variants, and in turn questions about the efficacy of the vaccines. People will refuse the vaccine on political and anti-science grounds, and continue to be jerks about wearing masks and distancing.


Meanwhile, a number of other nations will start recovery both socially and economically.


You won't be doing shows in Europe because Americans will be frowned upon, even with vaccination records. But certain acts will start limited touring again, and they'll find replacements for American musicians. I think there is a good possibility America could find itself literally cutoff from the rest of the planet, if it turns out by the end of the year new strains are originating here and the population still coddles the anti-science anti-mask faction. The rest of the world won't be having it.
as it becomes more and more clear having a responsible doctrine in place means maintaining a semblance of living life like "the old times".

It will mean new financial/geo political partnerships will arise. Brexit may be subsumed by agreements similar to what New Zealand and Australia/Guinea have, along the lines of agreed tourism based on mutual institutionalized precautions. The United States will be a physical pariah if Biden isn't successful, and if attitudes don't change.


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Originally Posted by Anderton
Now, when are we going to be gigging again?
I don't know, but here is both some interesting research on spreading by musicians and how some music students and teachers are dealing with restrictions.

Quote
COVID-19 Felt Like a Swan Song for In-person Performances. UMD Research Is Seeking to Understand and Minimize the Risks of Playing and Singing Together While Tech Helps Students Stay Up-tempo.

Blown Away - TERP Magazine

Quote
Jelena Srebric, a University of Maryland professor of mechanical engineering, has stepped onto this dark but brightening stage, co-leading a national study investigating how effectively the virus can be transmitted from the lips of a contralto or the bell of a trumpet to neighboring musicians or singers—and how to mitigate the risks.

At the same time, the university’s School of Music and School of Theatre, Dance, and Performance Studies are pioneering creative ways to keep students learning and playing together even while distanced, thanks to new technology and teaching approaches, as well as outdoor opera, livestreamed plays, video projections and other innovations.

“I understand performers needing some presence of each other, because … they literally cannot perform (otherwise),” says Srebric. “I would do everything I physically can to help musicians (perform) safely because I understand the need.”


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Originally Posted by Chip McDonald
The United States will be a physical pariah if Biden isn't successful, and if attitudes don't change.
I generally try not to be this pessimistic, but I agree with you. Our only hope is that with you-know-who soon being out of the spotlight most people start doing the right things (vaccines, masks, distancing) even if they're reluctant as opposed to the embarrassingly large numbers of people who are openly fighting doing what's needed.


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Interestingly, the W.H.O. just issued a blistering interim draft/report that basically says the entire world, including themselves, screwed up in terms of the response. They called it a "global series of failures."

Although there's reason to be critical of how the US handled the pandemic, we're by no means the only dummies on the planet.

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Originally Posted by Anderton
Interestingly, the W.H.O. just issued a blistering interim draft/report that basically says the entire world, including themselves, screwed up in terms of the response. They called it a "global series of failures."

Although there's reason to be critical of how the US handled the pandemic, we're by no means the only dummies on the planet.
Nope, not the only dummies on the planet, just by far the biggest dummies on the planet.

I just ran the most current numbers I could find:
  • We have 4% of the world's population and 27% of the world's COVID-19 cases. (We're #1)
  • We have over twice as many cases as #2, India, and they have 4 times as many people as we do.
  • With 4% of the world's population we also have 20% of the world's COVID-19 deaths.
  • The world's average is 263 COVID-19 deaths per million. The USA approaches 5 times the world's average with 1,230 deaths per million.


I agree, our government isn't to blame, our soon-to-be former administration is. But I agree, that's water under the bridge. We obviously screwed up. The important question should be, "How do we fix it?"

Given these numbers it seems to me, we all must try harder. We must self-enforce social distancing, wear our masks when in public, wash our hands often, avoid unnecessary indoor gathering, get vaccinated, and do everything we can that Fauci, the W.H.O. and the C.D.C. comes up with in the future. They are the experts at communicable diseases and are still learning how to prevent and how to treat this new one. We the people must take responsibility for the 'health of the hive'.

We're all in this together, and we should all be acting for the benefit of society as a whole against this common 'enemy' of the population. It's the kind thing to do, it's the civilized thing to do, and it's the patriotic thing to do.

Gigging won't come back until this plague is under control. The most dangerous places to be are bars, restaurants, theaters, gyms, churches, airplanes, and other enclosed spaces where people gather. Bars, restaurants, and places where people gather are where we gig.

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So what would happen if magically there was a little popsicle stand on every street corner offering free vaccinations? Poof.

Would we get to herd immunity even then? Using the 70% target for the ratio of immune people to all people. Your particular expert might have a different target....

This from webmd which I consider a reasonable source for medical info at the curated-for-the-masses level:

Dec. 7, 2020 -- Sixty percent of people questioned in November said they would “definitely or probably” take the coronavirus vaccine if it were available today, up from 51% in September, according to a study published by the Pew Research Center.

Pew said 39% of people polled said they definitely or probably won’t take the vaccine, though almost half that group said they might change their minds if more information becomes available. And 21% of people polled said they don’t intend to take the vaccine and are “pretty sure” more information won’t change their minds.


Of course these polls are just momentary measurements, and they have to be continually updated, etc. But they do have a lot to do with the current conversation.

These percentages of course won't occur in all populations, all geographic areas - so some populations and/or areas I would think would come to a much higher percentage of folks who "definitely or probably won't take the vaccine" than the 39%. Yikes.

We can count on the alt-media finding every soul who has a negative reaction to the vaccine and splashing them all over their coverage. On the other hand, hopefully the news will be striking enough - the good news, that is, once the effects of some millions of vaccines becomes apparent - that many minds will move from the resistant-to-vaccination column to the accepting-of-vaccination column. Bad news travels fast, but big good news could have the stronger impact over time. But it will take a long time to get there and the "there" we're headed for I don't think will be what we nostalgically think of as "normal".

All this to say - I think we're still in for a very long and complicated process. It's time I think to stop assuming "it'll all be over by summer or next fall" and start thinking about life, jobs, dating, entertainment, schools, churches, gyms, movie theaters, bars, restaurants, haircuts and football stadiums and countless other facets of our lives, as having a public health factor best thought of as permanent until further notice.

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Originally Posted by Nowarezman
All this to say - I think we're still in for a very long and complicated process. It's time I think to stop assuming "it'll all be over by summer or next fall" and start thinking about life, jobs, dating, entertainment, schools, churches, gyms, movie theaters, bars, restaurants, haircuts and football stadiums and countless other facets of our lives, as having a public health factor best thought of as permanent until further notice.

I don't think it's a situation when one day, or even one month, it's "over." I think it's more likely that people will deem the world less risky over time, and as more people believe that, they'll decide the benefits of living a "normal" life outweigh the risks.

Think of it as a rate/level envelope. We're past a series of attack/decay times, and hitting the sustain. However, there's a very long release time...and different people will bail at different times along the release.

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This virus is mutating and working it's nasty ass off to defeat the vaccines...as we speak. Viruses have one purpose...To survive..
They don't have feelings. They don't care about one thing except survival.
Stephen King, in all his genius, could not have conjured a more nefarious monster than a virus. Especially this one.
This virus has the potential of crippling the world, economically. It presents a danger to humans as dangerous as a nuclear war. To humans, notice I said. A nuclear war would be a danger to the entire planet. The destruction of man would be applauded by the other lifeforms that live here.

Thing is...Wouldn't you like to go to another concert?? I know I would. I'd be grateful to go to a local bar and just hear people jamming again.

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Hey AlamoJoe!! Great to see you again around these parts!

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Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
I just ran the most current numbers I could find:
  • We have 4% of the world's population and 27% of the world's COVID-19 cases. (We're #1)
  • We have over twice as many cases as #2, India, and they have 4 times as many people as we do.
  • With 4% of the world's population we also have 20% of the world's COVID-19 deaths.
  • The world's average is 263 COVID-19 deaths per million. The USA approaches 5 times the world's average with 1,230 deaths per million.

[/b]
I agree, our government isn't to blame, our soon-to-be former administration is. But I agree, that's water under the bridge. We obviously screwed up. The important question should be, "How do we fix it?"
The WHO said that there are too many false positives, the NYT reported that back in August. But the health officials did nothing about it. But they'll fix it now and the number of positives tests will immediately drop. I guarantee that. And then everyone can congratulate themselves that they were right all along.

Not only are there so many false positives but car accidents, murders, heart attacks, etc., have also been recorded as Covid fatality if people were positive for the virus, including if it was a false positive. But, as I just stated...the numbers will magically start to drop in the next few days and everyone can pretend that someone did something special rather than simply cleaning up the record keeping.

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Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Not only are there so many false positives but car accidents, murders, heart attacks, etc., have also been recorded as Covid fatality if people were positive for the virus.

You actually believe the numbers are in the hundreds of thousands?

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Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
The WHO said that there are too many false positives, the NYT reported that back in August. But the health officials did nothing about it. But they'll fix it now and the number of positives tests will immediately drop. I guarantee that. And then everyone can congratulate themselves that they were right all along.
Right on cue, yesterday the WHO released new guidelines on Covid tests:

https://www.who.int/news/item/20-01-2021-who-information-notice-for-ivd-users-2020-05

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Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
The WHO said that there are too many false positives, the NYT reported that back in August. But the health officials did nothing about it. But they'll fix it now and the number of positives tests will immediately drop. I guarantee that. And then everyone can congratulate themselves that they were right all along.
Right on cue, yesterday the WHO released new guidelines on Covid tests:

https://www.who.int/news/item/20-01-2021-who-information-notice-for-ivd-users-2020-05

There's probably a few of us that would be fascinated to know what transpired between the end of Feb and mid March but that will likely never get out, what a world we live in!

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Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
Originally Posted by Notes_Norton
I just ran the most current numbers I could find:
  • We have 4% of the world's population and 27% of the world's COVID-19 cases. (We're #1)
  • We have over twice as many cases as #2, India, and they have 4 times as many people as we do.
  • With 4% of the world's population we also have 20% of the world's COVID-19 deaths.
  • The world's average is 263 COVID-19 deaths per million. The USA approaches 5 times the world's average with 1,230 deaths per million.

[/b]
I agree, our government isn't to blame, our soon-to-be former administration is. But I agree, that's water under the bridge. We obviously screwed up. The important question should be, "How do we fix it?"
The WHO said that there are too many false positives, the NYT reported that back in August. But the health officials did nothing about it. But they'll fix it now and the number of positives tests will immediately drop. I guarantee that. And then everyone can congratulate themselves that they were right all along.

Not only are there so many false positives but car accidents, murders, heart attacks, etc., have also been recorded as Covid fatality if people were positive for the virus, including if it was a false positive. But, as I just stated...the numbers will magically start to drop in the next few days and everyone can pretend that someone did something special rather than simply cleaning up the record keeping.

If the false positives are consistent across the globe, it doesn't change the statistic percentages that much. We still have the world's worst record in combatting COVID-19 by far.

Every administration has its accomplishments and failures. The last administration failed us bigly.

We need to quit defending them and pretending they did a great job with COVID-19. Why? Acknowledging a problem is the first step in solving the problem, and our COVID response is a problem that dearly needs solving.

So instead of calling it a hoax, it'll be gone by itself, it's just like the flu, why don't we wear our masks, wash our hands, keep our distance, get vaccinated, and listen to the evolving story as the communicable disease experts learn more and more about this pandemic.

Denying it won't make it go away.

I know people who died and people who have permanent organ damage. Denying it won't change that, but fighting it may help to keep others from that same fate.

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I don't think it's a hoax and don't know anyone who does. The good news is that now that the testing parameters have been corrected, maybe with more accurate numbers better decisions can be made. Isn't that what everyone wants...decisions made based on medically accurate information?

Also, it's not fair to lay blame in one area...there were massive failures at every level that have been completely ignored or memory holed.

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Originally Posted by PrairieGuy
I don't think it's a hoax and don't know anyone who does.

Consider yourself lucky, you must hang out with the right people smile Hospitals are where "the rubber meets the road" and I know two nurses who find it incredibly frustrating to have people (a distinct minority, but they exist) saying it's a hoax and there must be something else wrong with them.

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The good news is that now that the testing parameters have been corrected, maybe with more accurate numbers better decisions can be made. Isn't that what everyone wants...decisions made based on medically accurate information?

It will still be a while before all the information we get is accurate. There have been multiple course corrections over the course of this thing, and I think that will continue. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a tendency to err on the side of caution. I think people would rather be given a false positive than a false negative (which also happens).

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Also, it's not fair to lay blame in one area...there were massive failures at every level that have been completely ignored or memory holed.

That's exactly what the W.H.O. said, it was a global failure on multiple levels. I think the main problem people had with the response of the federal government was that it was the opposite of "the buck stops here." The response was characterized mostly by denial, I don't think anyone would dispute that assessment. The response at the state level varied widely, from denial to panic, and everywhere in between.

The one thing I cannot stress enough is that yes, I'm sure the numbers aren't 100% accurate - how could they be? For every death falsely attributed to COVID-19, there's probably a COVID-19 death that was attributed to pneumonia, heart failure, etc. The place to find out whether this is serious or not is hospitals. When there's no room for non-COVID patients because COVID patients have taken over, you know there's something going on.

Most tellingly, people can question a cause of death, but you can't question that a dead body is dead. When you compare daily death rates since March compared to daily death rates from years before (which were pretty constant), it's obvious that there has been a massive increase in deaths per day in the US during the past nine months, and particularly the last 90 days. If that's not due to COVID, then we better find out damn fast what is causing it.

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And just to be clear - IMO both sides played politics with something that should NEVER have been politicized. Those who cynically distorted reality for a political advantage should be ashamed of themselves.

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Originally Posted by Anderton
And just to be clear - IMO both sides played politics with something that should NEVER have been politicized. Those who cynically distorted reality for a political advantage should be ashamed of themselves.
2thu yes, and it's polarized everyday civil conversation. I used to ignore it, but I cringe nowadays when politics comes up anywhere, it's not worth the condescending diatribes or passive-aggressive behavior. The worst part is that both sides seem to be in competition to see how far out of reality they can push it. sick

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